Pitbulls... Let's have the debate.

[crimzy]

I already have the other dog thread but I wanted to discuss this issue. When I reference pit bulls, I generally also think of bull terriers. I know there are some great ones, and their owners love them. But there are far too many attacks for me to believe it's just bad dog owners. And so many of the attacks are against babies, especially their faces. I'd have a really hard time bringing one into my home.
Here's what popped up from a simple search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=pit+bull+attacks&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
Thoughts?

 

[gemmy]

Pit bulls are fantastic dogs, but they belong with the right owners. These dogs are stubborn and will test their boundaries in the pack. If the owner is not diligent, the dog can become aggressive. I have found this aggression does not happen overnight.
I also think it is important to remember that pit bulls are known for not starting fights but finishing the fight. This is important to remember when bringing this type of dog into a household.
Another thing to remember is that any dog can turn on its family. I have a close family member that almost lost their 18 month old to a 2 year old black lab. I have been attacked by a family member's golden retriever. Any dog can pose a hazard.

 

[crimzy]

I also think it is important to remember that pit bulls are known for not starting fights but finishing the fight. This is important to remember when bringing this type of dog into a household.
I'm not buying this point. What are those babies doing to "start fights". I've sspent entirely too much time at dog parks and I've seen their unprovoked dog aggression sooo many times. But I've also seen amazing pits there, but I'd never trust that mine is one of the good ones.

 

[gemmy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate#post_3507868
I'm not buying this point. What are those babies doing to "start fights". I've sspent entirely too much time at dog parks and I've seen their unprovoked dog aggression sooo many times. But I've also seen amazing pits there, but I'd never trust that mine is one of the good ones.
A lot of the time when "babies" are attacked, it usually revolves around toys or food. This sometimes causes the dog to go into attack mode from being teased. I am not saying it is OK or acceptable, but it is my experience. My niece was bit in the face while she tried to hug her family dog while it was eating. The dog only stopped biting when a family member intervened.
I have spent a lot of time working with dogs and socializing them. I have found there to be more issues with common family dogs like rotties, labs, golden retrievers, shepherds, huskies and smaller dogs. Pit bulls with the right owner have given me the least issue.

 

[reefraff]

Pits are good dogs but with ANY large powerful dog comes a lot of responsibility. A friend that lived down the street from me when I was in high school had his young cousin mauled by his families dog, a Saint Bernard. Animal control didn't even try to catch the thing, they had the cops shoot it. They had no idea what happened but it went from big lovable mutt to cujo for no explainable reason. They really thought it was rabid given the rep of the breed but there was nothing wrong with the blood work they did on it.
Pits aren't the most apt to bite either. It's just when they do they do it up right so it makes the news.

 

[meowzer]

I have never been a fan of large dogs.....I have had Pugs mostly....and Pixie which is a mutt....but small
When I was about 5 I was bitten by a large German Shepherd.....Kinda like I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.....passing thru someones backyard as they just let their dog off it's chain to be fed....EEK.....Good thing the owners where there....and for a little girl I ran fast HAHA
ANYWAY......I have always stuck with dogs that I CAN TAKE
As far as pits....IDK enough about them...you only hear the bad stories....I am tired of seeing them abandoned tho.....people LOVE the idea of owning a pit, BUT don't spend the time training it, and of course when it gets TOO big for them to handle.....they toss it

 

[2quills]

Most cities dont even allow them within city limits anymore. The cops down here and even when I lived in the Detroit area, if they get called out for a pit bull attack or of they go into a house that has a pit bull they will typically shoot on site. Because they are illegal and all they have to do is say the dog acted aggressively towards them. Too much irresponsibility in handling or keeping them has led to too many problems.

 

[reefraff]

I live in a town with a pitt ban, as well as constrictor snakes over 4 feet, racoons, exotic cats and marsupials which bummed me out. I found a place that sells wallabies. I was gonna be the first kid on my block to have my own kangaroo.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzer http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate#post_3507877
I have never been a fan of large dogs.....I have had Pugs mostly....and Pixie which is a mutt....but small
When I was about 5 I was bitten by a large German Shepherd.....Kinda like I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.....passing thru someones backyard as they just let their dog off it's chain to be fed....EEK.....Good thing the owners where there....and for a little girl I ran fast HAHA
ANYWAY......I have always stuck with dogs that I CAN TAKE
As far as pits....IDK enough about them...you only hear the bad stories....I am tired of seeing them abandoned tho.....people LOVE the idea of owning a pit, BUT don't spend the time training it, and of course when it gets TOO big for them to handle.....they toss it
I am 6'5" and go well over 4 bills. There aint no dog I can't take LOL! Well for those I can't take in a fair fight I am well armed.

 

[crimzy]

I found some stats. It's hard to believe that the overwhelming amount of pit attacks is just due to bad owners. Do all the other breeds happen to be lucky enough to find good owners? Seems to me that there is an inherent aggression in the breed because no other explanation really makes sense if you believe these stats.

Here is the link... this is from September, 1982 - January 31, 2012
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Dog+attack+stats+with+breed+2012.pdf
Breed Attacks doing Child Adult Deaths Maimings %/dogs Notes
bodily harm victims victims
[dogs X victims] [--------Individuals---------]
Akita 65 42 19 8 47 .004 #
Akita mix (inspecific) 2 2 0 0 2
Akita/Chow mix 3 3 0 0 3
Akita/Lab mix 1 1 0 0 1
Akita/terrier mix 2 1 0 0 1
Airedale/boxer 1 1 0 1 0 #
Airedale 2 1 1 2 0 .002 #
Anatolian shepherd 1 1 0 0 1
Australian blue heeler 13 4 2 1 5
Australian shepherd 7 5 0 0 2
Australian shepherd mix 1 0 1 1 0 #
Basset/GSD mix 1 1 0 1 0
Basset/beagle mix 1 1 0 0 1
Basset/Lab mix 1 1 0 1 0
Beagle 2 2 0 1 1 .012 #
Belgian shepherd (Malinois) 7 4 3 0 4 .005
Black mouth cur 2 2 0 0 2 .004
Blue heeler 5 2 2 0 4
Border collie 2 1 1 1 2 .008 #
Boxer 48 14 15 5 20 .004 #
Boxer/bull mastiff mix 1 1 0 0 1
Boxer/German shepherd mix 1 1 0 1 0
Boxer mix 4 2 2 1 3
Boxer/Sharpei 1 1 0 0 1
Briard 2 0 1 1 0 .002
Brittany spaniel 4 1 0 0 1 .001
Bulldog (American, not pit) 4 0 3 2 2
Bulldog (English) 20 12 4 1 14 .005
Bull mastiff (Presa Canario) 76 30 28 11 44 .002
Bull mastiff/German shepherd 2 1 0 1 0
Buff mastiff/Rottweiler 2 1 1 0 2
Bull mastiff/Boxer 1 1 0 1 0
Bull terrier (not pit) 3 1 1 0 1
Cane Corso/Italian mastiff 12 1 7 1 7
Cane Corso/pit bull mix 1 1 0 1 1 #
Catahoula 3 0 1 0 1
Catahoula/pit bull mix 1 0 1 1 0
Caucasian shepherd 1 0 1 0 1
Cavalier King Charles spaniel 1 0 1 0 1 #
Chesapeake Bay retriever 2 0 0 0 1
Chihuahua 1 1 0 1 1 .024 #
Chow 54 36 15 7 36 .007
Chow/German shepherd 1 0 1 0 1
Chow/husky mix 2 2 0 1 1
Chow/Labrador mix 4 4 0 0 3
Chow/Sharpei mix 1 1 0 0 1
Chow mix (other) 6 5 1 1 5
Cocker spaniel 1 1 0 0 1 .007
Collie 4 4 0 1 3 .015
Collie/retriever mix 1 1 0 0 1
Coonhound 2 1 1 1 0 .002 #
Dalmatian 3 3 0 0 3 .006
Dalmatian/Akita mix 1 1 0 0 1
Dachschund 6 3 3 1 6 .006 #
Doberman 15 8 7 7 7 .007 #
Doberman/Great Dane mix 1 1 0 0 1
Dogo Argentino 2 2 0 1 1
Doge de Bordeaux 2 1 0 0 1
East Highland terrier 1 0 1 1 0 #
Fila Brasiero 1 1 0 0 1
German shepherd 93 59 26 13 57 .014 #
German shepherd mix 40 26 11 7 25 #
German shepherd/husky mix 6 5 1 2 3 #
German shepherd/Lab mix 8 2 2 0 4
Golden retriever 10 8 2 2 7 .015 #
Golden retriever mix 1 0 1 1 0 .007 #
Golden retriever/Lab mix 1 1 0 0 1
Great Dane 31 9 7 3 14 .007
Great Pyranees 3 0 2 1 1
Greyhound 1 1 0 0 1 .009
Hound mix 1 0 1 0 1
Husky 66 41 4 22 18 .020
Husky/Malamute mix 2 2 0 0 2
Husky/Labrador mix 1 0 1 0 1
Jack Russell terrier 4 2 1 2 1 .007 #
Labrador 45 32 11 3 34 .007 #font>
Labrador mix 14 11 3 1 12 .004 #
Lab/blue heeler mix 1 0 1 0 0
Labrador/boxer mix 1 0 1 0 0
Lab-Doberman 1 1 0 0 1
Lab-St. Bernard 1 1 0 0 1
Malamute 13 11 2 5 5 .003
Maremma 1 0 1 0 1
Mastiff 21 17 4 4 13 .005
Mini-pinscher 1 1 0 0 1 #
Norwegian elkhound 1 0 1 0 1 .001 #
Old English sheep dog 2 1 1 2 0 .006 #
Old English sheep dog mix 1 0 1 0 1
Pit bull terrier 1985 832 693 209 1102 .033 #
Pit bull/Akita mix 3 0 3 0 3
Pit bull boxer mix 24 10 9 1 16
Pit bull/chow mix 5 2 3 1 3
Pit bull/Doberman mix 1 0 1 0 1
Pit bull/Doberman/GSD/Lab 2 2 0 0 2
Pit bull/GSD mix 10 5 2 1 8
Pit bull/Lab mix 23 19 5 3 18 #
Pit/Rhodesian ridgeback mix 2 2 0 0 2
Pit bull/Rott. mix 48 10 7 2 13
Pit bull/Sharpei mix 1 1 0 0 1
Pit bull/Sheltie mix 7 4 0 0 4
Pit bull/Weimaraner mix 1 0 1 0 1
Pit mix unknown 5 2 1 0 4
Pointer mix 1 0 1 0 0 #
Pomeranian 1 1 0 1 0
Poodle 4 2 1 0 1 .020 #
Poodle/terrier 1 1 0 0 1
Pug 1 1 0 0 1 .004
Pug/Rottweiler mix 2 1 0 1 0
Queensland heeler 3 0 1 0 1
Rhodesian ridgeback 2 2 0 0 2 .002
Rottweiler 481 272 126 78 268 .003 #
Rottweiler/chow mix 2 2 0 0 2
Rottweiler/GSD mix 18 9 8 3 14
Rottweiler/Labrador 7 6 1 0 7
Russian terrier 1 0 1 0 1 .001
Saint Bernard 10 6 1 1 5 .009
Schnauzer 1 0 1 1 0 .009 #
Sharpei 5 5 0 0 5 .002
Sharpei/Rottweiler 2 1 0 0 1
Sharpei/unknown mix 1 1 0 0 1
Sharpei/Labrador 1 1 0 0 1
Sheba Inu 1 0 1 0 1 .002
Shih Tzu 1 0 1 0 1 .004
Springer spaniel 3 4 0 0 4
Terrier mix (not pit bull) 2 0 2 0 2
Tosa 1 1 0 0 1
Unidentified 2 1 1 2 0 #
Weimaraner 2 2 0 1 1 .004
West Highland terrier 2 0 2 1 1 .003 #
Wheaten terrier 3 1 1 0 2 .001
Wolf hybrid 84 69 5 19 48 .001 #
Totals of dogs attacking humans in fatal & disfiguring cases:
3521 1713 1077 470 2004 .329
Totals of humans attacked by dogs in fatal & disfiguring cases:
3394 1664 1048 456 1945 .329
Pit bulls & close pit mixes:
2113 884 726 215 1181 .050
60% 51% 67% 46% 59%
Pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios, Cane Corsos,
Dogo Argentinos, Fila Brasieros, and their mixes:
2725 1214 901 314 1519
77% 71% 84% 67% 76%
Pit bulls, Rottweilers, their close mixes, & wolf hybrids:
2708 1246 872 317 1521
77% 73% 81% 68% 76%

 

[reefraff]

Not surprised by those numbers. The difference is where other dogs will give a warning nip or can be punted like a football pitts finish the job. You do have a lot of jackass owners who train them to be aggressive but like I said upthread there's a reason why dog fighters choose that breed. I am not afraid of the breed assuming I raised the dog from a fairly young age but I don't want the responsibility. You still have to consider if they get out they are likely to end up chewing up someone else's dog and anyone who tries to break up the fight.

 

[flower]

I don't know why, but pit bulls seem to be the dog of choice for gang members and violent people, it must give them a bully rush or something. These are the ones who don't train their dogs, and tie them out all the time or worse just let them run loose.... and they think being aggressive is cool. The backyard breeders don't care about temperament, they breed big boned idiots, and in turn sells them to the street idiots. These are the people who have given the breed a bad name. lets face it, there are more irresponsible idiots in the world than responsible breeders and owners.
All dogs bite, the top of the list according to an insurance agent are the chow chows, but the pit bulls are the ones famous for mauling their victims (dog or human) to death, and ripping them apart.
So I am of the frame of mind that if you want a pit...make sure you go to a good breeder to get one, and for pities sake TRAIN THE DOG PROPERLY. I personally would never ever rescue such a dog, (which is a crying shame) but who knows what it's been through in it's life, and whats been bred into it's bloodlines.

 

[darthtang aw]

I was gonna comment on this. However I am choosing to bite my tongue. I see some ignorant comments throughout this thread but that is due to misinformation. Regardless I will say I was an active member against the latest bsl legislation this state was having to deal with. Even going so far as to get 8 other businesses to join me in dropping full page advertisements against this stupid legislation in my city. Each ad ran a thousand dollars a pop. There is nothing wrong with the breed. It is a numbers shell game. Plain and simple.

 

[meowzer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate#post_3507893
I was gonna comment on this. However I am choosing to bite my tongue. I see some ignorant comments throughout this thread but that is due to misinformation. Regardless I will say I was an active member against the latest bsl legislation this state was having to deal with. Even going so far as to get 8 other businesses to join me in dropping full page advertisements against this stupid legislation in my city. Each ad ran a thousand dollars a pop. There is nothing wrong with the breed. It is a numbers shell game. Plain and simple.
LOL....I did admit that IDK enough about them to comment

 

[reefraff]

It's like everything else, hype on both sides.

 

[pezenfuego]

I will preface with an admittance to inexperience and a salt grain warning.
When most animals are domesticated (foxes, rabbits, and dogs specifically), through the generations the animal begins to develop floppy ears. So here is my assertion:
Pit bulls, because their ears are not floppy, are not as domesticated as other breeds and as such have a tendency to be more violent and unpredictable than other breeds.
So, I mean, there is that...
But what you really have to ask yourself is this:
Is it possible that aggression and unpredictability can be genetically inherited?
We can blame the owners, we can blame genetics, or we can blame both of these things.
But where is the breakdown? How much blame should we put on genetics?

 

[darthtang aw]

DoI will preface with an admittance to inexperience and a salt grain warning.
When most animals are domesticated (foxes, rabbits, and dogs specifically), through the generations the animal begins to develop floppy ears. So here is my assertion:
Pit bulls, because their ears are not floppy, are not as domesticated as other breeds and as such have a tendency to be more violent and unpredictable than other breeds.
So, I mean, there is that...
But what you really have to ask yourself is this:
Is it possible that aggression and unpredictability can be genetically inherited?
We can blame the owners, we can blame genetics, or we can blame both of these things.
But where is the breakdown? How much blame should we put on genetics?
do you blame genetics when a human kills another human?

 

[reefraff]

Some people do.

 

[flower]

Pez,
I think Pitt bulls have floppy ears, and the owner has them cropped.
Also non-floppy ears is no indication of genetics of the dog to the wild, or the Mexican Chihuahua would be on the same thought line. LOL...I used the smallest little pointy eared dog I could think of to express a point.

 

[pezenfuego]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate#post_3507924
Do
do you blame genetics when a human kills another human?
I don't know if that was supposed to be condescending or thought-provoking. I'll treat it as the latter and answer your question with another question:
Is there a genetic correlation between serial killers?
Here comes a question cycle.
Why do serial killers kill people? We can answer the question with nature or nurture. If we pick nurture, then we also need to call into question nature. What caused the parents to treat the child in such a way?
The people that break the cycle are serial killers who were raised by nonrelatives or motivated by actions which were provoked by nonrelatives. Or perhaps the entire situation is epigenetic meaning that some people have a killer gene which is switched on by a traumatic event. We are straying from the topic at hand, but I still feel that picking one side or the other is jumping to conclusions.