Plumbing Re-design Blog

natclanwy

Active Member
Might be telling you something you already know but anyway when you glue PVC it wants to push the pieces apart especially on large diameter PVC.
You need to hold them in place for about 15-20 seconds then when you release them watch to make sure they don't spread apart. If they do press them back together again and wait an additional 15-20 seconds.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/2800630
However you need to look into why it is syphoning out of the DT.
A siphon is not physically possible in a closed loop. The fact that I had a siphon means I have an opening somewhere in the system large enough to allow gallons to flow quickly. I was so frantic to stop the flow of water, that I just forgot to observe where the opening was. We ain't talking about just some little leak, but a Major Fuster Cluck!
Funny thing is, I never placed the cap on the opening into which I poured water to prime the system, so that opening should have prevented any siphon from forming, at least from the drains. So, the deduction is that the siphon was in the return pipes, not the drain pipes. I'll figure it out tomorrow....hopefully.
Actually, Nat, I did not know that, but it certainly explains that gap. If I have to re-build, I'll remember your advice. Thanks.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
Only if you go back to the first grade and learn how to capitalize the first letter in each sentence and be enlightened as to the usefulness of punctuation. Then, utilizing your newly acquired writing skills, send me a grant request for a sum certain with specifics on your proposed use of the funds.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
BUBBLES!
I got it up and running. It was successful in that water flowed almost as intended and no major disaster. The Reeflo Dart really is quiet!
But I'd have to call it an overall failure in that:
1. I expected some big air bubbles at first as the air was purged from the pipes by the running water. They never stopped. Thousands upon thousands of small bubbles. After 5 minutes, I finally turned the pump off.
2. The SCWDs caused the flexible tubing to bounce around. Lots of annoying movement. I figured so much movement put undue stress on the PVC joints.
3. The SCWDs put water out both sides. They are not supposed to do that.
4. Several leaks, all but one were at barb fittings for the flexible tubing. The other one was at the union. It has to be perfectly straight, with no stress, otherwise it will leak. The movement was putting stress on it, so it leaked.
DECISION: Eliminate the flexible tubing. Plumb the whole thing in PVC in such a fashion that stress is removed from union and so that the SCWDs can be very firmly affixed to the wood stand to prevent all movement.
QUERY: What is causing the bubbles? Air being sucked in somewhere or cavitation? in the SCWDs or at one of the joints?
Opinions please.
 

natclanwy

Active Member
You could be getting bubbles from a leak that is rather than dripping water is acting like a venturi or it could be from air trapped in the system that needs time to be purged out. After you redo your plumbing let it run for an hour or so and see if the bubbles slow down if they do it is probably trapped air most likely in your "T" or the unions. If they do not decrease then you will need to find the leak in your plumbing which may be somewhat difficult depending on the size of the hole. There is a good chance that it was coming from your leaking union too so once you get your plumbing redone maybe you will get lucky and fix your leak at the same time. One thing that has got me curious is why your barb fittings are leaking, do you have a hose clamp on them? I am only using zip ties on mine and actually ran them without anything for a few months with no leaks.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
Actually, the ReeFlo Dart is so quiet that I may just re-think the whole idea of putting it outside. I'm considering the idea of putting it inside, mounting it on the wall (on a 2x4 stud) at the same height as the top of the DT.
 

erhoades

New Member
I am sorry I didn't mean to offend you; but you didn't need to personally attack me.You know nothing of my education and have no idea I hold a masters in musical theory and composition. Let me clarify this degree is one of the hardest achieve on this planet next to bio-chemistry and/or a chemistry. The level of discipline that it requires and the amount of time you spend with no money. But I forgot, with the amount of money you have you must be a republican and have no idea how to take a joke. Good luck on your pump and plumbing endeavors and lighten up.
P.S. Perfect punctuation doesn't mean ---- on a website. As for the proposal, I would use the money to by you a blow job so you can ease up.
 

natclanwy

Active Member
Just was looking back through your pics, was there any particular reason you didn't put the unions outside instead of inside? I know you had said your could remove the foam easily enough if you had to service the pump, just seems to me it would be easier if the unions were outside and you could just leave the pipe in the wall.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
erhoades, you obviously didn't see any humor in my response. Oh well. Lighten up, dude.
Nat, I wanted the ball valves inside, that's all.
Okay, I tried to eliminate every possible source of air that I could think of. I tried again and succeeded in turning the DT into one big protien skimmer for 5 minutes.
Attachment 211346
Attachment 211347
See the crud on top?
This is after I turned it off and let it sit for a few minutes.
Attachment 211348
Attachment 211345
There are only two possibilities of which I can think to account for the air bubbles, either cavitation, probably within the SCWDs, or somehow air is getting sucked into the PVC pipes at a joint somewhere.
Either way, I am at a loss.



 
V

vince-1961

Guest
hey Nat, I just now noticed your post up there at 6:17 PM. I have decided to re-plumb it, with pump inside since it's so incredibly quiet. I think you're right about it sucking air in like a Venturi. Some of those corner joints look guilty.
This Time, I'm just going straight up from the pump's discharge. No turns until it hits the Tee. That ought to eliminate any stress on the union. I like the flexibility of the hose, but the SCWDs "pulse" during the switch, which made the flex tube go bonkers.
EDIT
: I was tearing it down and discovered a particularly guilty joint. I got encouraged, sanded and cemented the daylights out of that joint, re-assembled it all with very high hopes that the Venturi effect would be gone. But alas, the 1.5" return union is just a goner. Water was not just dripping out, it was pouring. This was after I had joined the union with no stress on it.
So ist das Leben.
(C'est la vie.)
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
Cannabalism stinks. Now I know why construction people charge more for remodels than for new construction. Trying to design a system and re-use existing parts is much harder than a new build. So, I rebuilt it, keeping the pump inside since it is so quiet.
While brain dead last night, I started figuring out a solution to the movement of the SCWDs.
Attachment 211530
Attachment 211536
Here is tonight's end product:
Attachment 211531
Attachment 211533
Attachment 211534




 
V

vince-1961

Guest
If you noticed, I kept the flexible tubing. Trying to hard plumb (PVC) around the SCWDs and the drainage pipe fried my brain last night. So I decided to stick with the flex in the hope that securing the SCWDs would solve the movement issue. We'll find out tomorrow night, as I have to let the PVC cement cure for more hours than I care to stay awake tonight before I can safely pressure test the new rig. (Hopefully I fixed the leaks.)
It occurred to me that I never cementd the 1" tube coming from the water to the elbow hanging over the side for the water intake (drain) side. I wonder if the absence of glue might have been the source of the venturi effect. We'll find out tomorrow....
so the rest of the system is......
Attachment 211539
Attachment 211540
Attachment 211541
Oh fooey! I left fingerprints!
Attachment 211545
Attachment 211542




 
V

vince-1961

Guest
ACK! Very frustrated. Primed system by pouring water in pipes. Plugged in pump for just long enough to see that I still had the venturi effect. (maybe a minute, probably less.) Unplugged pump. Got PVC cement, cemented the drain uptakes to the plumbing as I figured that was where the air leak was. Left it alone for a while as my girlfriend "distracted" my attention from the tank. Upon returning to the tank, found water on floor. GF, with her better-than-mine eyesight identified 5 drips, from the lids of both SCWDs, from the unions under both SCWDs and from a 2" PVC joint.
Lids of SCWDs were teflon taped. 1 union was 1/8 turn loose. The other solid. As for the 2" joint, grrr.
Human error, MY human error.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
I re-did every loose connection, siliconed everything, waited 56 hours, plugged it in. Still had leaks. Hitherto unknown ones. Venturi effect was down to a minimum, but still, there were leaks. Disassembled, used plumbers paste on the one SCWD lid that was really leaking. Last Try. Venturi effect a bit smaller, but still new leaks.
Let it run for while. The SCWDs make a lot of noise when they are switching. The pulsating action they create when switching was rattling the flexible tubing even though the SCWDs were securely fastened to the wood.
Sat, observed, thought, and finally decided that not only had my plumbing failed, but the SCWDs were just not a viable product
due to the noise and the movement. Should have gone with the Oceans Motions Product. $180 wasted.
Tore it all down. Decided to use the new ReeFlo Dart as the main pump on the sump. Am considering using the old, noisy Iwaki pump outside, mount only 1 SCWD outside, have 3 flexible tubes running thru the wall, 2 for return, 1 for drain, all 1" ID. That will put the noise makers outside.
 

natclanwy

Active Member
Thats a bummer man Sorry, I don't have anymore suggestions at this point, other than take your time when you glue your pvc joints and follow the instructions on the can. I usually prime all of my pieces first then apply cement to the female piece then to the male piece, and then another swab on the female piece again and slip them together immediately turning the pieces a quarter turn or so as they slide together. Then I hold them together for 20 seconds or so and then release them watching for any movement if there is I slide them back together and hold for another 20 seconds. With this method I have been lucky enough not to have any leaks.
Do you think hard plumbing the SCWD would help the noise issue? How noisy are they, I know you said you were sensitive to the noise so could you put them in comparison to something else? I have looked at using SCWD and may in the future but if they are too noisy I will scratch them off of my list.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
They make a rythmical knocking sound about as loud as a relatively quiet, or "polite" clap of the hands. Perhaps slightly quieter than someone knocking with thier knuckles on your front door. The knocking lasts about 30 seconds as the SCWD switches. Since I was running a high GPH, they switched about every 30 seconds. Slower flow means they don't switch anywhere near as often.
Maybe they wouldn't be so loud if the GPH were not so high.
I'll sell you mine! They've been used and are priced accordingly.
 

natclanwy

Active Member
Not anywhere near ready for them yet and they are too big for my 55g. For the time being I am using the wavemaker function of my Reefkeeper Elite aquarium controller and a coulple of Koralias PH's, so far it is meeting my needs and is very quiet.
 
V

vince-1961

Guest
Paul Muscarella at 3iQ Ventures said he'd send me 2 new SCWDs to replace the defective ones. So I got my enthusiasm back and went to work....
Attachment 212952
Yep, same as before.... salvaging as much as I can.
Attachment 212953
On the next photo, I redesigned the "drain." Recall I previously used two 1" pipes leading into the 2" via a funky 3-way Tee that was more like a 4-way Cross. The problem with the old one was that the opening was below water level, so of course water would flow out of the opening everytime I opened it to remove water from the closed loop system. This time I am just using a Tee and putting the drain clean out opening on top, above the water level of the DT and using just one 2" pipe for sucking water into the closed loop. The photo does not show it readily, but if you look closely, you can see where I cut some slits into the 2" pipe (which is actually upside down in this pic). The grate looking thing gets inserted into the bottom.
Attachment 212954
This time I will hard plumb the SCWDs and not put a union under each SCWD. I figure two 45's equal less head (resistence) than one 90.
Attachment 212955
Attachment 212956




 
Top