Private Schools and evolutionary theory

[snakeblitz33]

Flower, I apologize for the misunderstanding, but the way I am reading it, it still says exactly what I want it to say. I was in a classroom observing. I put what was said in quotations, to make sure that it was understood that is what was said. The only thing I can think of that would change the statement would be adding "Where I would have dived..." instead of "where I dive."

My wife is a creationist/Christian/Assembly of God/religious person. She wants Emma to be a part of that school,... that educates children in ignorance. I don't see myself being able to afford that kind of education in the first place, let alone want my child to be brainwashed like that.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLEDYNAM1TE http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory#post_3531139
i think is it time is different than ours he made animals 1st say so in the bible it also says in leviticus i do belive that we can not fathom his time. i believe in God and every word in his book. just 2 cent

LOL...Why, what makes you think so? Are you aware that the Christian Bible is not all of HIS book? How many of HIS books have you read? Even as "Christian" books go...Protestants left out books the Catholics kept. Then there are the "lost books" or should I say rather the "left out" books. The protestant Bible contains 66 books...it is not "A BOOK".

On top of everything else, the words you read are not the original text...you are only reading an interpretation. Hanging your hat on every word somebody else says a book says, isn't a very strong standing point if you truly believe your eternity hinges on it.

Answering me takes away from the original posters thread, and I don't want to highjack the thread. I don't expect, nor want an answer, just giving you something to consider and think about.

 

[silverado61]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory#post_3531005
As some of you regulars know... I am in school to be a Biology teacher. Currently, I am taking a class that requires me to go to many different types of schools and observe many different grade levels. I had the opportunity to observe a Biology class at a Christian private school.

During the lecture, the teacher is discussing the basic parts of a flower and their functions. A student asked, "but how have flowers become so specialized?"

Now, this is where I dive into a discussion about evolution - convergent evolution, genetics, cohabitation, speciation, geologic time scales etc. etc.

The teacher in this Christian private school, whom I hope has been taught something about evolution says "Flowers are not a product of evolution, but designed by God for many different purposes."

Jaw dropped.

Are private school kids at a disadvantage when it comes to the sciences? Would you want your child to be taught evolution? Would you want your child to know evolutionary theory and explain it as...you want your child to know that God invented evolution and his time is different from ours. I don't know what I would have said to this man, given the opportunity.

I think if all of you would really read this this, again, you would understand better what Seth was trying to convey to us. He didn't write "Now, this is where I dived into the discussion about evolution." That would have been a past tense statement. Then everybody could argue that he did, in fact, interupt the lecture and injected his .02. What he wrote was, "Now, this is where i dive into a discusion about evolution." That is a present tense statement meaning: Here and now.
I was always told in Science and History class that if I really want to understand something that I read that I should read it. Then read it again. Or "measure twice, cut once". So I ask all of you to, "Read the thread. Then read it again."
Damn Seth. You really opened a can of worms with this one. No pun intended.


Oh, and as far as the Bible goes, it's not actualy "A Book". It's many books brought together in one volume. There were hundreds of books written about God. Many with different and conflicting interests, opinions, or views. So many in fact that in an attempt to bring everybody together to agree on something or maybe just to simplify things, a board of directors (so to speak) or trustees voted (Yes I said voted) on which books to include in one volume, the Bible as we know it today. And even It went through several revisions. The Old Testement, The New Testement, and so on. So even then there were different views or opinions about what God said or did. Therefore, if you think about it, then think about it again (Pun intended), it's a Word About God. Not the Word Of God. And just for the record I mean no disrespect to true believers of God.

BTW: Before you respond to anything I've written here, please read it again.

That's just my .02

 

[beth]

I think Snake meant that he became very engaged at that point of the discussion. The sentence as a stand alone makes you think that he joined the discussion, which is what I thought he did until I finished reading the paragraph when I realized that the teacher continued the discussion and Snake continued to observe, shocked by the response of the teacher.

What I find interesting is that I know that private schools still have to meet basic uniform government standards in teaching material otherwise they will not be accredited and will not be able to stay open. I just wonder if this teacher interjected her theory as opposed to what she is supposed to teach. Snake, that may be worth researching since you plan to become a teacher yourself and may have the opportunity to work for a private school some day.

 

[snakeblitz33]

I will never work for a private school. They do "religious tests." to see how religious and how much "faith" you have before you can get a job there, at least at the school that my wife teaches at. In order for her to get a job there, she played politics and joined their church that is affiliated with the school.

I, on the other hand, only believe in God as far as he created the universe and then left himself out of it,... observing. I'd much rather work any other job out there other then having to teach lies to children.

 

[geridoc]

I understand Snake's frustration. I teach an evolutionary biology course at a major university, and at least once a year I will have a student come to me after the course is over and tell me that he/she knew what answer I expected, so the student was able to get an "A" in the course, but that it was all wrong, and that what the bible says is the correct "explanation" of life's diversity.

Inevitably, the student was either home-schooled or a product of a sectarian high school. Now, understand, I teach using an experimental approach, because I want my students to understand how a scientist thinks, and how we come to develop theories to explain our observations. So while the student has gotten an "A", they have totally failed to become educated and I sometimes feel as if I have failed the student.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531151
Flower, I apologize for the misunderstanding, but the way I am reading it, it still says exactly what I want it to say. I was in a classroom observing. I put what was said in quotations, to make sure that it was understood that is what was said. The only thing I can think of that would change the statement would be adding "Where I would have dived..." instead of "where I dive."

My wife is a creationist/Christian/Assembly of God/religious person. She wants Emma to be a part of that school,... that educates children in ignorance. I don't see myself being able to afford that kind of education in the first place, let alone want my child to be brainwashed like that.

Okay...I do understand you now...when I read "this is where I dove in (past tense by the way), it really seemed you had given your 2 cents. As for your wife and the desire to send your little one to a Christian school, it is expensive. The good thing about private schools is that the classes are smaller, and the teacher can take some extra care with the students that public education can't offer. However that doesn't mean you can't offer extra insight, and educate on a private level.

I couldn't afford private school either, like I stated earlier, I would try and discuss at home the areas I felt lacking in public school.

When it comes to religion and politics, there will always be arguing ones point of view. It's kind of nice to "argue" ones point without fighting and getting nasty, I love being part of those discussions. Unfortunately such awesome discussions are hard to keep on track without somebody getting bent out of shape, and they walk away mad.

I'm not so certain the Christian school would educate Emma in "ignorance" but I do agree it is brainwashing...just as teaching evolution is brainwashing. Anytime you convince a kid or adult that your THERORY is an absolute, you hit that wall. You believe as you do... and you have your reasoning, your wife believes as she does, and she has her reasons, both views are just as valid. If you approach things with the right attitude to Emma as she grows, she has the unique opportunity to see both sides, and can come to her own conclusions. Which I personally think is the best thing you two could do for her.

I taught my kids how to examine an argument on creation or evolution, and look up information to dispel or prove, to their satisfaction on this sensitive subject. One thing is for certain, I never had to worry that they could be "brainwashed" into believing anything another person tells them.

I do have a funny story...My son was in 1st grade. The teacher was going around to every student in class, asking what Santa brought them for Xmas...My son's answer "nothing, my mom won't let him in the house"

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531163
Now, understand, I teach using an experimental approach, because I want my students to understand how a scientist thinks, and how we come to develop theories to explain our observations. So while the student has gotten an "A", they have totally failed to become educated and I sometimes feel as if I have failed the student.
The student got an A, so s/he did understand the material you taught very well. She just did not accept its premise because her spiritual beliefs were contrary. A teacher's job is to teach academics, not convince students to believe as they do. This student grasped what you were teaching very well. S/He just didn't believe it. That doesn't make her or you a failure.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531171
The student got an A, so s/he did understand the material you taught very well. She just did not accept its premise because her spiritual beliefs were contrary. A teacher's job is to teach academics, not convince students to believe as they do. This student grasped what you were teaching very well. S/He just didn't believe it. That doesn't make her or you a failure.

Agreed.

Flower, That's what I am doing with my daughter. I want her to know both points of view so that she can get the best of both worlds and make decisions for herself. Whatever she chooses, or doesn't choose, is up to her.

 

[darthtang aw]

The student got an A, so s/he did understand the material you taught very well.  She just did not accept its premise because her spiritual beliefs were contrary.  A teacher's job is to teach academics, not convince students to believe as they do.  This student grasped what you were teaching very well.  S/He just didn't believe it.  That doesn't make her or you a failure.
And this is the problem most academic teachers seem to have. If a student doesn't embrace the teachings they are viewed as ignorant or the teacher feels like a failure. Which couldnt be further from the truth.
Parents arein the same boat. They can teach their kids life lessons morals and so forth. The child may understand and know the information. But as the "teacher" there is no control over if the information is followed, embraced, or applied.

 

[geridoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531178
And this is the problem most academic teachers seem to have. If a student doesn't embrace the teachings they are viewed as ignorant or the teacher feels like a failure. Which couldnt be further from the truth.
Parents arein the same boat. They can teach their kids life lessons morals and so forth. The child may understand and know the information. But as the "teacher" there is no control over if the information is followed, embraced, or applied.

It isn't about whether the student agreed with me or not. It is about the total failure on the student's part to marshal facts to support an argument. "The bible says it is so" is not making an intellectual argument. I have more respect for creationists who sometimes try to find facts to support their claims than I do for those who reflexively quote authority, as if that were a meaningful argument. BTW, this problem of not knowing how to support an intellectual position is not confined to creationist students, but is a finding on the exams I give. Students seem to think that if they think it is so, then it is so. It never occurs to them that no matter how much they believe that, for example, gravity does not exist, that anvil is going to crush their skulls when it falls. There is nothing wrong with being wrong (I am wrong most of the time), but understanding why you might be wrong is the key to education.

 

[darthtang aw]

It isn't about whether the student agreed with me or not. It is about the total failure on the student's part to marshal facts to support an argument.  "The bible says it is so" is not making an intellectual argument.  I have more respect for creationists who sometimes try to find facts to support their claims than I do for those who reflexively quote authority, as if that were a meaningful argument.  BTW, this problem of not knowing how to support an intellectual position is not confined to creationist students, but is a finding on the exams I give.  Students seem to think that if they think it is so, then it is so.  It never occurs to them that no matter how much they believe that, for example, gravity does not exist, that anvil is going to crush their skulls when it falls.  There is nothing wrong with being wrong (I am wrong most of the time), but understanding why you might be wrong is the key to education.
True to a degree. The problem is neither can completely prove the beginning of the universe. Both have holes. So i. This i stance acing faith against science is not an argument of proving right and wrong. It is an argument of faith.
Science can prove that a bullet entering a mans skull will end his life. What happens afterwards can not be proven. One says life ceases to exist the other says it continues on in a different form. Neither are proveable 100% in the reality. But since all evidence scientificly points at life ceasing to continue, does this mean the person of faith is wrong since the current scientific data does not point point to an afterlife?

 

[snakeblitz33]

Ok, afterlifes now, lets try to stay on topic a little bit.
Evolutionary theory in private schools - should those students be taught both lines of thought but the teacher discounts evolution in favor of creationism? Would that "plant seeds" too much instead of indoctrinating them with only one point of view?

 

[silverado61]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531164

Okay...I do understand you now...when I read "this is where I dove in (past tense by the way), it really seemed you had given your 2 cents. As for your wife and the desire to send your little one to a Christian school, it is expensive. The good thing about private schools is that the classes are smaller, and the teacher can take some extra care with the students that public education can't offer. However that doesn't mean you can't offer extra insight, and educate on a private level.

I couldn't afford private school either, like I stated earlier, I would try and discuss at home the areas I felt lacking in public school.

When it comes to religion and politics, there will always be arguing ones point of view. It's kind of nice to "argue" ones point without fighting and getting nasty, I love being part of those discussions. Unfortunately such awesome discussions are hard to keep on track without somebody getting bent out of shape, and they walk away mad.

I'm not so certain the Christian school would educate Emma in "ignorance" but I do agree it is brainwashing...just as teaching evolution is brainwashing. Anytime you convince a kid or adult that your THERORY is an absolute, you hit that wall. You believe as you do... and you have your reasoning, your wife believes as she does, and she has her reasons, both views are just as valid. If you approach things with the right attitude to Emma as she grows, she has the unique opportunity to see both sides, and can come to her own conclusions. Which I personally think is the best thing you two could do for her.

I taught my kids how to examine an argument on creation or evolution, and look up information to dispel or prove, to their satisfaction on this sensitive subject. One thing is for certain, I never had to worry that they could be "brainwashed" into believing anything another person tells them.

I do have a funny story...My son was in 1st grade. The teacher was going around to every student in class, asking what Santa brought them for Xmas...My son's answer "nothing, my mom won't let him in the house"

Flower, please, I have nothing but respect for you as an Aquarist. But again, please read the post. Seth did not, repeat, did not say "This is where I dove in". Yes, that's past tense. He clearly wrote "This is where I dive in." That's present tense. Major difference between the two.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Silverado, we cleared that up a while ago. thanks for defending me though.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531185
Evolutionary theory in private schools - should those students be taught both lines of thought but the teacher discounts evolution in favor of creationism? Would that "plant seeds" too much instead of indoctrinating them with only one point of view?
Accepted science needs to be taught in schools, while religion (not in the arena of academia) is a spiritual and personal endeavor. When science conflicts with a belief system, then I would say that GeriDoc's student was on the right track. The student was capable of understanding the material very well as proved by the A grade; she however, personally does not embrace it--she believes something else. She totally learned the material which is all that GeriDoc should concern himself with, not whether the student agreed with it.

Teachers shouldn't lack respect for someone else's belief system just because it is different than their own. All that should matter is that the student grasped the material being taught as evidenced by grades. If a student goes into a science class knowing full well that evolution will be taught, but then refuses to demonstrate an understanding of the material by flunking tests, then it is totally counter intuitive. Judgement about another person's beliefs or their educational background based on what they say about their religious beliefs just is not germane and demonstrates a prejudice. That attitude is the No. 1 reason that students are flocking to private and chartered schools as well as being home-schooled. What is important is passing the course and students' understanding of the material taught, not convincing students or expecting them to scientifically defend their belief system.

 

[darthtang aw]

Accepted science needs to be taught in schools, while religion (not in the arena of academia) is a spiritual and personal endeavor.  When science conflicts with a belief system, then I would say that GeriDoc's student was on the right track.  The student was capable of understanding the material very well as proved by the A grade; she however, personally does not embrace it--she believes something else.  She totally learned the material which is all that GeriDoc should concern himself with, not whether the student agreed with it.
Teachers shouldn't lack respect for someone else's belief system just because it is different than their own. All that should matter is that the student grasped the material being taught as evidenced by grades.  If a student goes into a science class knowing full well that evolution will be taught, but then refuses to demonstrate an understanding of the material by flunking tests, then it is totally counter intuitive.  Judgement about another person's beliefs or their educational background based on what they say about their religious beliefs just is not germane and demonstrates a prejudice.  That attitude is the No. 1 reason that students are flocking to private and chartered schools as well as being home-schooled.   What is important is passing the course and students' understanding of the material taught, not convincing students or expecting them to scientifically defend their belief system.  
Exactly. My comment about afterlife was just an example of faith vs. science. That is all.
I do have a question. How do we know the half life of carbon? Honest question.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Darth, I'm sure it's easily researched. I'm not a chemist and I don't pretend that I know an answer - but there are scientific journals and research out there to help answer any of your science questions. That's part of science is research and understanding.

 

[bang guy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531194
Exactly. My comment about afterlife was just an example of faith vs. science. That is all.
I do have a question. How do we know the half life of carbon? Honest question.

My understanding is (and I am also not a scientist) that known dates are used to extrapolate. For example, if a piece of furniture from the 1600's is well documented then the amount of Carbon-14 can be compared to a freshly harvested piece of wood. Get enough of these comparisons and they actually give a fairly nice chart that is statistically useful for plotting out older dates. Nobody will argue that it's perfect.

 

[geridoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/20#post_3531192
Accepted science needs to be taught in schools, while religion (not in the arena of academia) is a spiritual and personal endeavor. When science conflicts with a belief system, then I would say that GeriDoc's student was on the right track. The student was capable of understanding the material very well as proved by the A grade; she however, personally does not embrace it--she believes something else. She totally learned the material which is all that GeriDoc should concern himself with, not whether the student agreed with it.

Teachers shouldn't lack respect for someone else's belief system just because it is different than their own. All that should matter is that the student grasped the material being taught as evidenced by grades. If a student goes into a science class knowing full well that evolution will be taught, but then refuses to demonstrate an understanding of the material by flunking tests, then it is totally counter intuitive. Judgement about another person's beliefs or their educational background based on what they say about their religious beliefs just is not germane and demonstrates a prejudice. That attitude is the No. 1 reason that students are flocking to private and chartered schools as well as being home-schooled. What is important is passing the course and students' understanding of the material taught, not convincing students or expecting them to scientifically defend their belief system.

Memorizing facts is easy, and does not reflect successful education beyond the most elementary level (read - middle school, maybe high school). Beyond that, education is defined as learning how to use facts to think. This does not mean agree, but to be able to use facts to think. In a science course "What is important is passing the course and students' understanding of the material taught, not convincing students or expecting them to scientifically defend their belief system" is incorrect, it is precisely important to expect students to scientifically defend their beliefs. Otherwise, the course belongs in a philosophy, or (shudder) theology department. Modern education (rant alert) has become too much about acknowledging and respecting a student's belief system, and not enough about breaking belief systems so that a new, better educated belief system can develop. This new system might parallel the instructor's, but not necessarily, or even desirably. Just so the (mental) pot is stirred a bit.