Quarantine practice.

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2923071
I've seen plenty of fish be carriers of ick for longer than 3-4 weeks before displaying the symptoms. Can you elaborate and, possibly provide a source for this information?

It's more then possible for an untreated fish to 'carry' Ich for 4 weeks without 'showing' symptoms because Ich usually just harbors in the gill area. When a fish is stressed the immune system drops, and Ich rears it's head. In a small QT, this is sometimes stressful enough to cause an Ich outbreak
However there are a number of diseases like Marine Velvet or flukes that will kill a fish in a week if left untreated regardless of stress or not, and also infect and kill it's tankmates (first hand experience). When you have a newly acquire fish, like say oh a Longsnout Butterfly that only pick at food, and has intestinal worms, and doesn't like competing for food, without QT he would have been died by now.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/2923121
It's more then possible for an untreated fish to 'carry' Ich for 4 weeks without 'showing' symptoms because Ich usually just harbors in the gill area. When a fish is stressed the immune system drops, and Ich rears it's head. In a small QT, this is sometimes stressful enough to cause an Ich outbreak
However there are a number of diseases like Marine Velvet or flukes that will kill a fish in a week if left untreated regardless of stress or not, and also infect and kill it's tankmates (first hand experience). When you have a newly acquire fish, like say oh a Longsnout Butterfly that only pick at food, and has intestinal worms, and doesn't like competing for food, without QT he would have been died by now.
As to your first point, I thought QT was supposed to be a stress-free haven where fish can start to feed without the stress of competition. Based on your point, the "small" QT actually has the affect of creating sufficient stress to bring on disease???
As to your second point, careful observation of the fish, tankmates and feeding habits prior to purchasing would eliminate this concern.

 

[oceansidefish]

Also why I buy easy to deal with fish.... I love some fish but would just never buy because of all the hassles of dealing with them. I have enough to worry about. But I applaud those who do QT in hypo and can have the patience and time to deal with the more disease prone fish. Maybe I will get there one day

 

[rcreations]

Here's the ich cycle:
The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish. After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).
So following that timetable, within 1 month of QT, you SHOULD see the ich attached to the fish, otherwise if it doesn't attach in that timeframe, it dies. But you're right... it could be attached to the fish and it's very easy to miss sometimes. The sure way is to treat from the beginning.

 

[aquaknight]

First point, competition. Sure. However, add a fish to a new tank and he stresses. Period. Doesn't matter if it's a 900gal or a 20gal. Fish don't like change of scenery, initially.

 

[peter1215]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2922984
I kind of find it funny that people don't believe that a fish can carry the ick parasite into the display, even if QT'd. Can someone please explain to me how a QT, if not hypoed at the same time, kills the ick parasite?

Crimzy
I QT my new fish with chloroquine phosphate then a week with prazi pro. I learned this from a lfs who Qt's all new fish before selling them to the public. Ever since using this approach my Dt has been free of external parasites. My question is how do qt corals/inverts unless you have a qt tank with all the necessary equipment to keep them alive? Im sure most peoples qt is just a basic setup not fit to keep corals alive for 4 weeks.

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2923146
As to your first point, I thought QT was supposed to be a stress-free haven where fish can start to feed without the stress of competition. Based on your point, the "small" QT actually has the affect of creating sufficient stress to bring on disease???
As to your second point, careful observation of the fish, tankmates and feeding habits prior to purchasing would eliminate this concern.
First point, sure, competition is elminated. However, add a fish to a new tank and he stresses. Period. Doesn't matter if it's a 900gal or a 20gal. Fish don't like change of scenery, initially. That may be enough to cause an Ich break out, or the fish may adjust within hours and not stress enough. Again, Ich is one of my lesser concerns.
Second point. That is far from a guarantee. No online store is perfect. No LFS is perfect. You could have the healthiest fish in the world at the LFS. You observe him for weeks having them hold him. Great. You go to pick him on up Saturday, and the LFS got a shipment with fish carrying velvet on Thursday. Add him to the display, whoops their goes all your fish.

 

[gmann1139]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/2923121
It's more then possible for an untreated fish to 'carry' Ich for 4 weeks without 'showing' symptoms because Ich usually just harbors in the gill area. When a fish is stressed the immune system drops, and Ich rears it's head. In a small QT, this is sometimes stressful enough to cause an Ich outbreak
However there are a number of diseases like Marine Velvet or flukes that will kill a fish in a week if left untreated regardless of stress or not, and also infect and kill it's tankmates (first hand experience). When you have a newly acquire fish, like say oh a Longsnout Butterfly that only pick at food, and has intestinal worms, and doesn't like competing for food, without QT he would have been died by now.
Agreed about the 'other diseases'.
Let's not forget its a lot easier to watch a fish in QT, and pick out the corpse, if necessary, than in a DT that may contain hundreds of pounds of rock and coral.

 

[richl]

QT 'everything' since I almost lost all fish in DT. Most recently purchased fish that went into QT got sick about 3 weeks in, so I'm glad it was in the QT and not the DT. Everyone in the DT has remained well so far, though it's only been a couple of months. It's a lot easier to deal with a sick fish in 20 gal than in 125

 

[cleve_seahorse]

I qt fish for 2-3 weeks and reidi / erectus seahorses for 5-6 weeks....my kellogis will be in qt for a total of 12-14 weeks as they were babies when purchased and to small for the dt, not to mention there bad track record in home aquariums...inverts like snails/ crabs are given a very quick freshwater dip and placed in dt, macros are also given a freshwater dip before dt

 

[anjiro]

Originally Posted by Oceansidefish
http:///forum/post/2922830
If that 10g was not cycled with LR and LS thats prob why it died....
I thought the point of a qt was a bare tank with very few fake plants (silk). Point being that much of your ls and lr can absorb your medication. Making it difficult to dose the tank properly and lowering the chances of fish survival. Just my thought, but what would be the point in using said rock and sand just to kill it along with the parasite. Seems like a waste, thats why I use cycled water from my display...

 

[sepulatian]

Crimzy, you and I both know that your tank has ich in it. Your tank is large, healthy, has great water conditions, and is lightly stocked. That is a beautiful thing. Fish can most certainly live with ich, and barely be effected by it, under those circumstances. That may be why you have trouble following the logic behind a QT. Let's just go with ich for my example on why to quarantine fish. First, you should only quarantine one fish at a time, unless you have a pair of something. Let's say that the fish looks beautiful but has one single ich parasite hidden in it's gills. That parasite will feed on the fish for three to seven days. It then drops off to reproduce. It can take up to two weeks for that one parasite to fully reproduce. At that time the "adult" bursts open to release hundreds of new parasites. They all need to find a host within hours. There is only one, or two, fish in the tank. Trust me, you would be able to tell if the fish had parasites. At this time the fish, no matter how healthy, would have parasites all over him. It is much better to find this out in the QT than months later in the DT when the parasites have had the chance to multiply by the thousands. Some people treat their fish right off. I don't with all fish. I did with my puffer though because I had seen ich in other tanks that were plumbed together with the tank that he was in. I quarantine new fish for four weeks minimum. That allows time just in cs that one lonely parasite ruptures a few days late.
There are many people that never quarantine anything. In systems such as yours, it isn't an issue. Should something malfunction in your tank, and your fish's immune system becomes compromised, there isn't a doubt in my mind that you will have an ich outbreak. Your fish are healthy though, which is great.
Now, why quarantine non fish? Parasites can come in on any calcareous surface. Again, let's just go with ich. When ich releases from a host fish it attachés itself to a calcareous surface. This can be rock, sand, invert shells, etc. Non fish only need three weeks in QT. The parasite has already detached from the host so you just have to wait for the reproduction process to complete. The new parasites will have no host and die.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Anjiro
http:///forum/post/2923444
I thought the point of a qt was a bare tank with very few fake plants (silk). Point being that much of your ls and lr can absorb your medication. Making it difficult to dose the tank properly and lowering the chances of fish survival. Just my thought, but what would be the point in using said rock and sand just to kill it along with the parasite. Seems like a waste, thats why I use cycled water from my display...

You are correct, you cannot treat the tank with LR in it. You can, however, use LR to cycle the tank prior to fish going in. The biological bacteria is already on the rock. Ghost feed the tank to produce ammonia. The bacteria will spread to the other surfaces of the tank. You can also keep a sponge filter in your sump. The bacteria will colonize on it. You can then move the sponge filter into the QT to minimize a cycle.

 

[crypt keeper]

wish i found this site 10 months ago. My QT has sand and rock in it. I have been lucky enough to not have a fish in it break out with anything. I have a niger trigger in there now and he is going strong. 20 days with no issues. Should I take my rock and sand out and have it bare?

 

[nano reefer]

never have
i have an incredibly reliable LFS, great products, and i have never hd anything wrong happen to them (give them a year and then they jump the tank, or into the overflow box or end up alive in my refugium for 3 months without my knowing...

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2923741
Crimzy, you and I both know that your tank has ich in it. Your tank is large, healthy, has great water conditions, and is lightly stocked. That is a beautiful thing. Fish can most certainly live with ich, and barely be effected by it, under those circumstances. That may be why you have trouble following the logic behind a QT. Let's just go with ich for my example on why to quarantine fish. First, you should only quarantine one fish at a time, unless you have a pair of something. Let's say that the fish looks beautiful but has one single ich parasite hidden in it's gills. That parasite will feed on the fish for three to seven days. It then drops off to reproduce. It can take up to two weeks for that one parasite to fully reproduce. At that time the "adult" bursts open to release hundreds of new parasites. They all need to find a host within hours. There is only one, or two, fish in the tank. Trust me, you would be able to tell if the fish had parasites. At this time the fish, no matter how healthy, would have parasites all over him. It is much better to find this out in the QT than months later in the DT when the parasites have had the chance to multiply by the thousands. Some people treat their fish right off. I don't with all fish. I did with my puffer though because I had seen ich in other tanks that were plumbed together with the tank that he was in. I quarantine new fish for four weeks minimum. That allows time just in cs that one lonely parasite ruptures a few days late.
There are many people that never quarantine anything. In systems such as yours, it isn't an issue. Should something malfunction in your tank, and your fish's immune system becomes compromised, there isn't a doubt in my mind that you will have an ich outbreak. Your fish are healthy though, which is great.

You and I both know that my tank has ick in it??? Or is it that you know that I know that you know that I know my tank has ick... but does anyone else know... who knows?
There is no doubt that the parasite is alive in my system. I have seen the occasional spot here or there. But I just don't freak out about minor maladies such as ick. I've had (I think) 3 outbreaks of ick in 5 years and have yet to lose a fish from it. I think that if you are losing a lot of fish to ick then the ick is not the problem but a symptom of more serious issues.
My previous posts may have been slightly antagonistic, but that's just because I was at work and I'm usually pissed off at work. But I just think that the whole QT thing is overrated and done completely wrong most of the time. I've discussed this before but look at the examples the "responsible" hobbiests have used in this thread alone... previous posts have mentioned extremely small, nano type tanks being used as QT. Of course if you throw a powder blue tang into a 10 gallon it will develop ick or some other malady and likely die. Does that mean that the QT saved the display from said disease? Not in my mind.
I keep delicates. In my last setup, before I had a fish room, I was doing 10% water changes every 5-6 weeks or more... I was topping off with tap water... and I feed a ton. I just don't agree with the logic of throwing an idol, copperband, ray or tang into an undersized tank with inferior mechanical and biological filtration when there is a full size, well maintained display ready to go.
I know this is just one area where I won't agree with a lot of people. BTW, in about 10 days I'll have had my yellow ray and purple tang for 5 years. Both have had their share of issues throughout the years. But we've managed to do ok.

 

[spnohio]

I have a scopas tang in really bad shape from ich, can someone tell me how to do this?

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by crypt keeper
http:///forum/post/2923769
wish i found this site 10 months ago. My QT has sand and rock in it. I have been lucky enough to not have a fish in it break out with anything. I have a niger trigger in there now and he is going strong. 20 days with no issues. Should I take my rock and sand out and have it bare?
I have about half an inch of sand in one of my QT's and a scatter in the other. Unless you have to use copper, then don't worry about it. Finish out this quarantine time then remove the rock and scoop out some sand. You can leave some sand in there. The only issue would be copper treatment. If there is only a layer of sand then don't even worry about it. I always add a piece of LR to the QT when I add a new fish. The bacteria on it combats any spikes. I have a spare QT to put the rock into should a parasite be present. You can accomplish the same thing by placing the rock into a bucket with a power head for three weeks though.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by spnohio
http:///forum/post/2923781
I have a scopas tang in really bad shape from ich, can someone tell me how to do this?
Please start a thread in Disease and Treatment. We will walk you through the process.

 

[crypt keeper]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2923779
I keep delicates. In my last setup, before I had a fish room, I was doing 10% water changes every 5-6 weeks or more... I was topping off with tap water... and I feed a ton. I just don't agree with the logic of throwing an idol, copperband, ray or tang into an undersized tank with inferior mechanical and biological filtration when there is a full size, well maintained display ready to go.

before I started to read on this stuff i was the same exact way with a 55 gallon a few years back. Not a single piece of live rock and black gravel. tank was bulletproof it seemed. I had it for over a year and then a power outage killed everything. I have around 8 fish in the tank. everybody was happy. all sorts of fish. I did it again though thinking that was the way. Everything got smoked abour 3 months in. Now I pay close attention as Im sure you do as well.