Squidd.......Teach me.....DYI:Plumbing 101 on a SW Tank

[leona]

Hello Everyone,
I hope I'm not the only one to wonder how to get started on the plumbing on our tanks. If I am that's ok to. Cause I will be a little more smarter about my tank at the end. I have a 55g FOWLRLS right now but in upcoming months I will be making the needed changes to make our tank into a reef. I've been trying to right a list of things I will need and the how too's. I've got the sump, refugium ( I don't have one on my tank yet but that also is on my list). I must say for any new to sw aquarium people out there don't get into the hobby cause someone talked you into it with your eyes shut. We did know there would be work involved. I'm trying to learn what I can. I HAVE spent time reading. But I might as well be reading a Science book. I can read it but it's making any sense. I need basic how to's and why's. I am usally a hands on learner but I don't know of any Local SW people in my area that would be able to take the time to come and help me. My LFS said they would come if we payed them. Well I think not. I don't trust our LFS.
I would like to get away form ph's in the tank. I want a more clean system. Don't want to see wires and as little tubing as possiable. So I'm hoping someone can teach me. I would really really really appreciate it. Just so everyone knows. Yes, I do have a husband and he is as I call him Jack of all trades. He really doesn't have the time to look up or do it. If I can get the system down and basically tell him what to do. He will do it. So I'm looking for a teacher now.
Anyone :help:
Somone :help:

:help:

 

[tizzo]

Do you want the details on a drilled tank, or a regular tank with an overflow box?

 

[leona]

Hello Tizzo........I guess a regular tank since my tank is not drilled. I would be scared to crack my tank if I drilled it.
Will my canopy be able to hide the plumbing when we build it?
Is it easier to change the plumbing a regular tank if we get a bigger tank down the road?
What's an overflow box?
Leona

 

[tizzo]

I recently learned a little myself so I cannot provide a LOT of answers for you. This is the thread where I learned exacltly "how" an overflow box works. In a nutshell, it's a box that sits in your tank right up near the waters surface, there is an upsidedown U tube that syphons the water into a box that sits just outside the tank, from there the water travels down your "plumbing" into your sump/fuge/filter, whatever. Then it gets pumped back up via a pump on the other side of your sump.
Having this under the tank tank will eliminate visuals on your protein skimmer, heater, and grounding probes, but you still may need to keep powerheads in your display.

 

[leona]

is this something I build? have to buy? The overflow box would be connected to my plumbing correct. Would it be my over flow plumbing? How big of an overflow box do I need?
Leona

 

[squidd]

This is as good a place to start as any...at the top as the water goes down...
An overflow box is a device that Hangs on the back of the tank and is used to "transfer" water from the inside the tank to the outside of the tank (prior to draining to the sump..)
It's main purpose is to regulate the level of water "in" the tank (keep it steady) and have the ability to "stop" and "restart" flow if the power to the pump goes out....and needs to be sized large enough to keep up with the flow returning from the pump....
What size pump and what size overflow are probably your next question,(and we'll get to that in a minute) but lets make sure we understand the workings of the overflow first..
HOB overflows can be purchased or built and come in two basic designs ...a "U" tube (recomended) and the "box" type (CPR)
A regular "siphon" will continue to drain your tank to the lowest point the hose is in the tank...or till it sucks air and stops compleatly...
The overflow box holds a certain ammount of water in the inner and outer chamber to "maintain" the siphon effect in the U tube...(to start and stop) and transfer from inner to outer...
The inner box allows water into the chamber (drain) as the tank level rises past the teeth..and is the "transfered" to the outer...
The outer box "drains" to the level of the standpipe (to maintain siphon)
Water flows down hill and trys to be "self leveling" ..
The pic shows it "at rest" ....as the tank levels rises ...it will flow "down hill" to the inner box...as the inner box level rises it will "transfer" to the outer....as the outer box level rises it will "flow downhill" to the drain, and then the sump..

 

[leona]

From the drain through pvc to my sump correct?
I'm pretty sure I got all this thanks for the picture it helped.
LEona

 

[steveoutla]

Leona - do a search on 'amiracle' on google and you'll find out about the overflows (with pictures and everything). that's how I found the overflows that I got.

 

[squidd]

Now, the question comes up ..."What size overflow should I get..??"
That depends on how much your pumping to your tank...
"How much should I pump to my tank..?"
That depends on how much fow you want in your tank...
"How much do I want in my tank...?" etc...etc...
"How do I figure all this out...??"
I can help you size it out...I have a "system" for this...
We divide your system into three main components or "phases"...Return pump flow, Closed Loop flow and Sump/fuge sizing...
I'll give you options and you choose the appropriate pieces to combine and complement the whole...Based on what YOU want the end result to be...
As we get to each "phase" you will need to know what your "Goals" are, and then we'll pick and option out the components to reach these goals...
As many of the components for each phase are interdependant on each other for "balance" we will refer back to the "Big Picture" (combined Goals) to be sure they complement each other...
1. What is the "Goal flow"or desired "turn over" for your tank ...I suggest at least 20X up to 30X if you will be keeping SPS...What type of "inhabitants" are you planning on keeping..?
Look up other threads to see what others are running...Can we get it all from the return pump or will you need "supplemental flow devices...
2. What is the "Goal" for supplemental flow from the cloosed loop...Surge or Wave action (side to side) Full linear flow for a "circular" pattern, or Chaotic, Random,Mixing flow...? I suggest the chaotic random "pattern" ... With either a 4 or 8 way flow "switching" device...
3. What is the "Goal" for the Fuge...Malnutrient removal through the export of Macros (Harvesting) ..MN removal through Xenia or other softie...Pod/larvae production for natural feeding of corals, DSB with full compliment of Micro flora and Fauna for denitrification...a cryptic zone with Live Rock for pods and denitrification..?
Some of these can be combined to a point , but a "Goal" needs to be set due to differing sizing, lighting and flow needs...
While we're down there...Do you want to build in a propagation tank to the system..?
Again, As many of the components for each phase are interdependant on each other for "balance" we will refer back to the "Big Picture" (combined Goals) to be sure they complement each other...
So in order to determine flow needs and equipment, I need to know more of what your goals are for the tank...

 

[leona]

1. What is the "Goal flow"or desired "turn over" for your tank ...I suggest at least 20X up to 30X if you will be keeping SPS...What type of "inhabitants" are you planning on keeping..?
Look up other threads to see what others are running...Can we get it all from the return pump or will you need "supplemental flow devices...
Isn't more flow better? If I chose 30x for the turn over is that enough turnover so that any kind of corals i put into the tank would be ok?
2. What is the "Goal" for supplemental flow from the cloosed loop...Surge or Wave action (side to side) Full linear flow for a "circular" pattern, or Chaotic, Random,Mixing flow...? I suggest the chaotic random "pattern" ... With either a 4 or 8 way flow "switching" device...
I would also have to agree with the random pattern. The chaotic. Besides I think the Chaotic would give flow through out the tank and not just sections at a time.
3. What is the "Goal" for the Fuge...Malnutrient removal through the export of Macros (Harvesting) ..MN removal through Xenia or other softie...Pod/larvae production for natural feeding of corals, DSB with full compliment of Micro flora and Fauna for denitrification...a cryptic zone with Live Rock for pods and denitrification..?
My main reason why I want a fuge is for pods and also for Malnutrient Removal (Nitrates). This would help with that prob correct? As for the Micro flora and the Fauna I really don't know why you need it.
Do you want to build in a propagation tank to the system..?
Yes, But I was told I could not because of the stand. These are my measurments for my stand. The stand outside measurments are 48"L x 29" 1/2H The inside measurments are 10" 1/2w x 46"L. I'm loosing 2 inches in L and also loosing 2" 1/2 W. I was told that only a 10g sump would fit.
But keep in my we are building a NEW stand. I'm in the process of getting ideas on what I want. But the measurments for the outside will be the same for the inside. So let's just say we have 48"L x 29" 1/2 H x 13"W
This is my Goal measurments for the NEW stand. I would like the doors as big as possiable so that I can make any changes needed. Very easily.
So in order to determine flow needs and equipment, I need to know more of what your goals are for the tank... [/B]
My Main Goal:
When my tank is up and running properly I don't want the choices of corals, invert,fish to depend on "lack of". I want to have choices and options when purchasing new friends for the tank. Not, I can't have this cause I don't have the wright flow or the right lighting. Or I should of done this or changed that. Besides that I need a bigger tank I don't want anyother reason besides compatability to be the reason why I can't have a nice looking tank. :happy:
I also want everything that is going to be done to be easily transferred to a bigger tank if it comes to that. We are looking at other tanks. But I think wright now it's best to just get this tank up and running properly before going on to bigger and better.
Does that answer everything for you?
Leona

 

[dskidmore]

If you want to transfer this system to a bigger tank later, definatly go on the high side for total flow. If it's 30x now, and you double your tank size, it will go to 15x, a number most people find reasonable, if not ideal for SPS. You can always add to or upgrade the pumps later then, instead of having to do it all at the same time.
If there isn't enough room in your stand, you could put a second stand beside and still plumb the two tanks together through a sump. I'm still a fan of building custom stands though.

 

[squidd]

Does that answer everything for you?
Pretty much...:yes: , But then it also opens up a whole new/next batch of questions as well...
I also want everything that is going to be done to be easily transferred to a bigger tank if it comes to that.
"This" might be a problem, but we can address it as it come up...
Some of the peices that are "right" for this tank (55) may be woefully inadaquate in something bigger, but there are ways "around" that as well...
Isn't more flow better? If I chose 30x for the turn over is that enough turnover so that any kind of corals i put into the tank would be ok?
Yes, and pretty much yes...Somewhere around 30X is a great number to shoot for, for a "mostly" SPS and LPS tank, but may be a bit much for some LPS and softies...It also may be a bit much for "some" typs of fish, but most of the regular "Reef Safe" fish can handle it...
OK, so 30X in a 55 is ~ 1650 gph...That's what we'll shoot for...
Herein lies our "first" little tank/big tank conundrum...:nervous: I probably should have asked "How "big" is the new tank...?", but I'm going to assume you go all out and get a 180, in wall, in the new house...(tell me if it's different, or we should drop the whole 2nd tank program)
"IF" we were doing a 55 "only"...
1. I would suggest 600gph to/from the sump and ~1000 gph from the supplemental...Both of these would be too small to transfer...
or to "transfer"..
2. 1000 gph to/from sump...Good to transfer, but will require a larger sump setup...(do you have the room?) and 650gph from supplemental...(too small to transfer)
So, Decision time/a couple choices here...Which way you want to go..?
I would also have to agree with the random pattern. The chaotic. Besides I think the Chaotic would give flow through out the tank and not just sections at a time.
This we can do, number of options here as well dependant on choices from "above"...
My main reason why I want a fuge is for pods and also for Malnutrient Removal (Nitrates).
This we can do as well, but does raise the "second" big/little conundrum...Sump can/should be sized to the flow to/from the MT and the Fuge is sized to the "Volume" of the MT...
We also have "space" limitations to deal with on the smaller stand...(can you "confirm" the 10 1/2" X 46" ID....doesn't match with the 29 1/2"X 48" OD) :notsure:
The "propagation tank can be a "add on" now or later as we figure what "room" we have to work with...
Looking at all the "double decisions" you'll need to make and the incompatibilty of "most" of the equipment and the size limitations of the stand... I'm going to suggest tabling the "transfer" idea and just concentrate on building ONE balanced and properly sized system for your 55...
Besides, most of this stuff will be a year or two old and covered in coraline and algae, and half wore out when you do decide to up grade...So you can just take the lessons learned here and build 'a whole new" balanced system, when your ready...

 

[leona]

let me quickly answer the question about size of tank.
Because of room at the moment and since the deal between me and my husband has not come to pass (If he gets a Harley then I get a house).
Looks like we will only be able to go up to a 90G. So somewere between a 55-90G.
Does that change anything Squidd?
Leona

 

[leona]

So, Decision time/a couple choices here...Which way you want to go..?
Let's just assume we only have the measurments I gave you before to work with. Maybe I should start thinking about upgrading our tank also. That would save on having to re-build a new stand and canopy.
This we can do, number of options here as well dependant on choices from "above"...
(You lost me Down below)
This we can do as well, but does raise the "second" big/little conundrum...Sump can/should be sized to the flow to/from the MT and the Fuge is sized to the "Volume" of the MT...
Dont worry about the ID measurments. Just the OD measurments. 29 1/2" X 48". I will attach a picture to show you what I mean about the ID measurments
We also have "space" limitations to deal with on the smaller stand...(can you "confirm" the 10 1/2" X 46" ID....doesn't match with the 29 1/2"X 48" OD) :notsure:
The "propagation tank can be a "add on" now or later as we figure what "room" we have to work with...
I'm going to suggest tabling the "transfer" idea and just concentrate on building ONE balanced and properly sized system for your 55...
OK let's just work on the 55G but with measurments of above mentioned. I'm really not sure when we will be able to upgrade. I would rather have this one worked out before trying to do it to a bigger tank. Besides I still have a 29G with nothing in it. Still decided what to do with it.
Besides, most of this stuff will be a year or two old and covered in coraline and algae, and half wore out when you do decide to up grade...So you can just take the lessons learned here and build 'a whole new" balanced system, when your ready... [/B]
U wright U wright

 

[leona]

Inside measurments

 

[leona]

Originally posted by DSkidmore
If you want to transfer this system to a bigger tank later, definatly go on the high side for total flow. If it's 30x now, and you double your tank size, it will go to 15x, a number most people find reasonable, if not ideal for SPS. You can always add to or upgrade the pumps later then, instead of having to do it all at the same time.
If there isn't enough room in your stand, you could put a second stand beside and still plumb the two tanks together through a sump. I'm still a fan of building custom stands though.
I can't put another stand next to this tank. I could run the fug from the 29g in the kitchen. But i'm thinking that would be more work then I want.

 

[squidd]

I'm liking the "empty" 29...That is a perfect size for the "Fuge" to be adaquately sized for effective "measurable" results...
I reccommend 1/2 Main Tank size for malnutrient removal through export of Macros and you will gain excellent pod reproduction in a dedicated "Pod Pile"...
I need a "real" measurement from here to here...(see pic) behind doors to wall...this will help in sizing Sump as well...

 

[squidd]

I'm glad we can "concentrate" on the 55 for now...Will make decision making much easier..:yes:
I' "suggest" 600 gph to/from sump, ~ 1000 gph from Closed Loop...
This will allow you to purchase/build a "standard" sized HOB Overflow with a 600 to 700 gph rating....
Here we pump from sump to tank with a Mag 9.5 submersable pump..with 1" PVC pipe and 3-90* elbows...
That will give you 740 gph to the tank but we "trim" that down to "safe" Overflow capacity with a "spreader Bar" behind the rockscape blowing detrius up and forward and keeping it suspended...:yes:
To size the sump need to know what kind/what size (dimentions) SKIMMER you will be using...I assume you want it "hidden" in the stand/sump...?

 

[leona]

I'm looking into purchasing the
I might be able to get this one pretty reasonable but am unsure if it's worth a second look at. Then I would be able to buy a better skimmer like my second choice when we do upgrade our tank. Anyone?
Pro Clear Aquatics. Model 150 Protein Skimmer.
In sump opersation (only)
Venturi Driven
spiral air-water movement inside skimmer
counter-current design promotes maximum air-water contact time
Removable collection cup with fitting for drain off.
air injection valve
22" X 4"
It's either this model or ES5-3 or Cs6-1 unsure.
Euro-Reef Protein Skimmer Model ES5-2 (pictured above) technical specs:
• Reactions chamber: 5" diameter x 10" tall
• Collection cup: 5" diameter x 4" tall
• Overal height: 20"
• Easy union disconnect w/ zero height clearance required for cup removal
• Pump: SEDRA KSP3500 - 30 Watts 110v
• Footprint: 9" x 9"
• Ideally rated for a 75 gallon aquarium.

 

[leona]

Originally posted by Squidd
I'm liking the "empty" 29...That is a perfect size for the "Fuge" to be adaquately sized for effective "measurable" results...
I reccommend 1/2 Main Tank size for malnutrient removal through export of Macros and you will gain excellent pod reproduction in a dedicated "Pod Pile"...
I need a "real" measurement from here to here...(see pic) behind doors to wall...this will help in sizing Sump as well...
15" From your markings