jdl
Member
Thomas jeffersons view of the bible
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul...al/me-beliefs5
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul...al/me-beliefs5
The Evil Bible
- Thread starter sickboy
- Start date
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by JDL
http:///forum/post/3017181
Thomas jeffersons view of the bible
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul...al/me-beliefs5
And?
http:///forum/post/3017181
Thomas jeffersons view of the bible
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul...al/me-beliefs5
And?
yearofthenick
Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3016992
I use my 'beliefs' to debate the topic. Non-believers don't have a book to justify their arguments. When it comes to religious debates, you have to ask more questions to validate why a person who believes in God does so. The religious person normally references passages from the bible to support their argument. So to counter, a non-believer uses their interpretations of those passages to refute the believer's claim.
But there's a standard to be upheld whenever you interpret something... anything. If you lived life taking everything at face value, you probably wouldn't get very far.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3016992
As far as personal attacks - show me what was stated before those responses.
Do you want me to bring you some ice water as well? If you're really that curious, you're welcome to find it yourself.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3016992
You'll probably find they were in response to some form of personal attack on my viewpoints and opinions. Some of my replies have a sarcastic tone, but it's done to get a point across to your relative statement to me. And yes Nick, based on your tone in any religious conversation we have, you do come off as what I define as a religious fanatic. Apparently you don't feel that way, but to someone who doesn't believe in religion, you have that fervor for what you believe in that is similar to what I see in other people who are devoted to religion. You are 'fanatical' about believing there is a God, and what is written in the bible. Some people of faith would take that as a compliment. If you take it as an insult, then I apologize for calling you 'fanatical'.
I don't mean to throw anyone else under the bus, but I would say that dcoyle is probably more of a fanatic... droning off bible verses and such. At least I'm interactive. I take it offensively because I pride myself in being educated, not blinded, in the bible. I used to be an atheist. The only reason I know so much is because of my own motivation. Like I said, I'm not even a pastor... I don't even have any formal biblical training... I've just chosen to read books and educate myself, as I wish you would as well. Know thine enemy, bionic. Prove YOUR theory that there isn't a God.
Yes, please do... prove to me there is no God. Now I want to hear from you... why do you think there is no God?
bionicarm
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3017393
But there's a standard to be upheld whenever you interpret something... anything. If you lived life taking everything at face value, you probably wouldn't get very far.
Do you want me to bring you some ice water as well? If you're really that curious, you're welcome to find it yourself.
I don't mean to throw anyone else under the bus, but I would say that dcoyle is probably more of a fanatic... droning off bible verses and such. At least I'm interactive. I take it offensively because I pride myself in being educated, not blinded, in the bible. I used to be an atheist. The only reason I know so much is because of my own motivation. Like I said, I'm not even a pastor... I don't even have any formal biblical training... I've just chosen to read books and educate myself, as I wish you would as well. Know thine enemy, bionic. Prove YOUR theory that there isn't a God.
Yes, please do... prove to me there is no God. Now I want to hear from you... why do you think there is no God?
Why do I think there's no God? Because I've never seen any physical proof he/it exists. And I don't want to hear the "Just look around you" theory. Yes, there is no 100% scientific evidence that proves how the Earth evolved, how man came to being, etc. But science has shown how certain things came to being by utilizing the tools that are available to scientist today. Scientist could in fact prove how man was created if they had DNA available from the first human being. Unfortunately, things like that aren't available. What PHYSICAL evidence do you have that proves that God exists? Show me physical evidence of any kind that there is a God and Heaven. You can't do that. Can you prove unequivocably there was an Adam and Eve? That Eve was created from the rib of Adam? That a Garden Of Eden ever existed? Where are the original tablets that held the Ten Commandments? All these events are just stories told in a book. No physical proof any of these people, places, items, or events ever occured. Some theologists have traced back the origins of many of the disciples, but all those individuals were nothing more than the authors of the 'chapters' contained in the bible. Just because they existed doesn't prove God or Jesus 'lived'. To me, they're nothing but storytellers.
http:///forum/post/3017393
But there's a standard to be upheld whenever you interpret something... anything. If you lived life taking everything at face value, you probably wouldn't get very far.
Do you want me to bring you some ice water as well? If you're really that curious, you're welcome to find it yourself.
I don't mean to throw anyone else under the bus, but I would say that dcoyle is probably more of a fanatic... droning off bible verses and such. At least I'm interactive. I take it offensively because I pride myself in being educated, not blinded, in the bible. I used to be an atheist. The only reason I know so much is because of my own motivation. Like I said, I'm not even a pastor... I don't even have any formal biblical training... I've just chosen to read books and educate myself, as I wish you would as well. Know thine enemy, bionic. Prove YOUR theory that there isn't a God.
Yes, please do... prove to me there is no God. Now I want to hear from you... why do you think there is no God?
Why do I think there's no God? Because I've never seen any physical proof he/it exists. And I don't want to hear the "Just look around you" theory. Yes, there is no 100% scientific evidence that proves how the Earth evolved, how man came to being, etc. But science has shown how certain things came to being by utilizing the tools that are available to scientist today. Scientist could in fact prove how man was created if they had DNA available from the first human being. Unfortunately, things like that aren't available. What PHYSICAL evidence do you have that proves that God exists? Show me physical evidence of any kind that there is a God and Heaven. You can't do that. Can you prove unequivocably there was an Adam and Eve? That Eve was created from the rib of Adam? That a Garden Of Eden ever existed? Where are the original tablets that held the Ten Commandments? All these events are just stories told in a book. No physical proof any of these people, places, items, or events ever occured. Some theologists have traced back the origins of many of the disciples, but all those individuals were nothing more than the authors of the 'chapters' contained in the bible. Just because they existed doesn't prove God or Jesus 'lived'. To me, they're nothing but storytellers.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3017452
Why do I think there's no God? Because I've never seen any physical proof he/it exists. And I don't want to hear the "Just look around you" theory. Yes, there is no 100% scientific evidence that proves how the Earth evolved, how man came to being, etc. But science has shown how certain things came to being by utilizing the tools that are available to scientist today. Scientist could in fact prove how man was created if they had DNA available from the first human being. Unfortunately, things like that aren't available. What PHYSICAL evidence do you have that proves that God exists? Show me physical evidence of any kind that there is a God and Heaven. You can't do that. Can you prove unequivocably there was an Adam and Eve? That Eve was created from the rib of Adam? That a Garden Of Eden ever existed? Where are the original tablets that held the Ten Commandments? All these events are just stories told in a book. No physical proof any of these people, places, items, or events ever occured. Some theologists have traced back the origins of many of the disciples, but all those individuals were nothing more than the authors of the 'chapters' contained in the bible. Just because they existed doesn't prove God or Jesus 'lived'. To me, they're nothing but storytellers.
I agree that the "look around you" theory isn't very scientific, but there is a little merit in it. If you were do do a little metal-detecting on the beach and found a watch, you'd know that someone made it. In the same way, you can look at the intricacies of the organisms and the variety in our organisms on this planet and you have to admit that something made it. The balance is so perfect that if ANYTHING were off, it wouldn't exist. It would be like me going to Washington D.C. and saying that the Lincoln memorial was a mere process or erosion... just like the fact that lincoln being a human was a process of evolution. In comparison, it just doesn't make sense.
But don't turn it around dude. Don't ask me the religious questions... you've had 3 1/2 pages of that. Now I want you to prove to me there is no God. Don't play the improbability card with me either... I've answered your questions and played your games... now I have legitimate questions of my own for YOU. Prove to me that evolution is how we all came to be (If that's what you believe... I'm still not sure what you believe). Prove to me how the Cambrian Explosion WASN'T the cause of them going back to the drawing board on the theory of evolution.
http:///forum/post/3017452
Why do I think there's no God? Because I've never seen any physical proof he/it exists. And I don't want to hear the "Just look around you" theory. Yes, there is no 100% scientific evidence that proves how the Earth evolved, how man came to being, etc. But science has shown how certain things came to being by utilizing the tools that are available to scientist today. Scientist could in fact prove how man was created if they had DNA available from the first human being. Unfortunately, things like that aren't available. What PHYSICAL evidence do you have that proves that God exists? Show me physical evidence of any kind that there is a God and Heaven. You can't do that. Can you prove unequivocably there was an Adam and Eve? That Eve was created from the rib of Adam? That a Garden Of Eden ever existed? Where are the original tablets that held the Ten Commandments? All these events are just stories told in a book. No physical proof any of these people, places, items, or events ever occured. Some theologists have traced back the origins of many of the disciples, but all those individuals were nothing more than the authors of the 'chapters' contained in the bible. Just because they existed doesn't prove God or Jesus 'lived'. To me, they're nothing but storytellers.
I agree that the "look around you" theory isn't very scientific, but there is a little merit in it. If you were do do a little metal-detecting on the beach and found a watch, you'd know that someone made it. In the same way, you can look at the intricacies of the organisms and the variety in our organisms on this planet and you have to admit that something made it. The balance is so perfect that if ANYTHING were off, it wouldn't exist. It would be like me going to Washington D.C. and saying that the Lincoln memorial was a mere process or erosion... just like the fact that lincoln being a human was a process of evolution. In comparison, it just doesn't make sense.
But don't turn it around dude. Don't ask me the religious questions... you've had 3 1/2 pages of that. Now I want you to prove to me there is no God. Don't play the improbability card with me either... I've answered your questions and played your games... now I have legitimate questions of my own for YOU. Prove to me that evolution is how we all came to be (If that's what you believe... I'm still not sure what you believe). Prove to me how the Cambrian Explosion WASN'T the cause of them going back to the drawing board on the theory of evolution.
sickboy
Active Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/3016820
Specifically, when He rose on Easter morning. You know of Abraham's bosom?
While this may surprise you, yes. I was an uber Christian once upon a time, and I still am in a loose sense. Basically I was so faithful I ended up, basically........a pagan (that is the wrong word though, but only thing I can think of). I now love nature, etc with religious books (aka the bible) as a supplement. I love learning and debating religion more than anything else, hence why I spend time reading sites like the evil bible. While I'm far from a scholar in any of them, I also know a lot about Judaism (which is easy if you are a christian), Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism, and I think K'ung Fu Tzu (confucius) was a pretty cool guy as well...
EDIT- I'm not advocating that my end to Christianity is the right one, I'm sharing that after years of debate and learning, that is where I am, right or wrong.
http:///forum/post/3016820
Specifically, when He rose on Easter morning. You know of Abraham's bosom?
While this may surprise you, yes. I was an uber Christian once upon a time, and I still am in a loose sense. Basically I was so faithful I ended up, basically........a pagan (that is the wrong word though, but only thing I can think of). I now love nature, etc with religious books (aka the bible) as a supplement. I love learning and debating religion more than anything else, hence why I spend time reading sites like the evil bible. While I'm far from a scholar in any of them, I also know a lot about Judaism (which is easy if you are a christian), Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism, and I think K'ung Fu Tzu (confucius) was a pretty cool guy as well...
EDIT- I'm not advocating that my end to Christianity is the right one, I'm sharing that after years of debate and learning, that is where I am, right or wrong.
socal57che
Active Member
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/3017783
While this may surprise you, yes.
Nope, not surprised. To know something like Abrahams Bosom, I knew you had studied the Bible at some point.
I've picked up on comments you've made in other threads as well. I knew enough to be a pain in the neck to Christians. I've only been a true Christian for a couple years, but have a lifetime of information tidbits, many of which I have recently proven wrong. Things like the collection and assembly of the books, the time they were written, the language used, the day to day life of the people who lived during the time the Biblical events took place and their social structure.
After accepting Christ into my heart, I chose to accept every word of the Bible as truth...The unerring Word of God, written with God's instruction. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but through Him. This rules out all other religions for me. I cannot pick and choose from the Bible what suits me. Either it is ALL true and correct, or none of it is. There is no middle ground. No lukewarm. No other gods.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Being "good" and being faithful no matter what religion you follow...does not get a person to heaven. At least not according to Scripture.
http:///forum/post/3017783
While this may surprise you, yes.
Nope, not surprised. To know something like Abrahams Bosom, I knew you had studied the Bible at some point.
I've picked up on comments you've made in other threads as well. I knew enough to be a pain in the neck to Christians. I've only been a true Christian for a couple years, but have a lifetime of information tidbits, many of which I have recently proven wrong. Things like the collection and assembly of the books, the time they were written, the language used, the day to day life of the people who lived during the time the Biblical events took place and their social structure.
After accepting Christ into my heart, I chose to accept every word of the Bible as truth...The unerring Word of God, written with God's instruction. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but through Him. This rules out all other religions for me. I cannot pick and choose from the Bible what suits me. Either it is ALL true and correct, or none of it is. There is no middle ground. No lukewarm. No other gods.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Being "good" and being faithful no matter what religion you follow...does not get a person to heaven. At least not according to Scripture.
dcoyle11
Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3017393
I don't mean to throw anyone else under the bus, but I would say that dcoyle is probably more of a fanatic... droning off bible verses and such. At least I'm interactive. I take it offensively because I pride myself in being educated, not blinded, in the bible. I used to be an atheist. The only reason I know so much is because of my own motivation. Like I said, I'm not even a pastor... I don't even have any formal biblical training... I've just chosen to read books and educate myself, as I wish you would as well. Know thine enemy, bionic. Prove YOUR theory that there isn't a God.
Yes, please do... prove to me there is no God. Now I want to hear from you... why do you think there is no God?
Not a problem bro.. I have been under busses before… just have been involved in many of these forums before and have found they do not get very far.. What I have learned in my Christian walk is that the word of God is what changes people not me. I drone off bible verses and such because God words are a whole more powerful than mine. Always spoken in love and they are alive, many times they are exactly what one may need to hear. I may not agree with some things each of you are saying to one another but I have found that arguing about it is never in love and always about US. This is what I do know, that God is good and his word does not come back void.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Remember we as Christians believe in our Lord and Savior being raised from the dead after three days, we certainly should believe the rest of the stuff God tells us.
http:///forum/post/3017393
I don't mean to throw anyone else under the bus, but I would say that dcoyle is probably more of a fanatic... droning off bible verses and such. At least I'm interactive. I take it offensively because I pride myself in being educated, not blinded, in the bible. I used to be an atheist. The only reason I know so much is because of my own motivation. Like I said, I'm not even a pastor... I don't even have any formal biblical training... I've just chosen to read books and educate myself, as I wish you would as well. Know thine enemy, bionic. Prove YOUR theory that there isn't a God.
Yes, please do... prove to me there is no God. Now I want to hear from you... why do you think there is no God?
Not a problem bro.. I have been under busses before… just have been involved in many of these forums before and have found they do not get very far.. What I have learned in my Christian walk is that the word of God is what changes people not me. I drone off bible verses and such because God words are a whole more powerful than mine. Always spoken in love and they are alive, many times they are exactly what one may need to hear. I may not agree with some things each of you are saying to one another but I have found that arguing about it is never in love and always about US. This is what I do know, that God is good and his word does not come back void.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Remember we as Christians believe in our Lord and Savior being raised from the dead after three days, we certainly should believe the rest of the stuff God tells us.
bionicarm
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3017528
I agree that the "look around you" theory isn't very scientific, but there is a little merit in it. If you were do do a little metal-detecting on the beach and found a watch, you'd know that someone made it. In the same way, you can look at the intricacies of the organisms and the variety in our organisms on this planet and you have to admit that something made it. The balance is so perfect that if ANYTHING were off, it wouldn't exist. It would be like me going to Washington D.C. and saying that the Lincoln memorial was a mere process or erosion... just like the fact that lincoln being a human was a process of evolution. In comparison, it just doesn't make sense.
But don't turn it around dude. Don't ask me the religious questions... you've had 3 1/2 pages of that. Now I want you to prove to me there is no God. Don't play the improbability card with me either... I've answered your questions and played your games... now I have legitimate questions of my own for YOU. Prove to me that evolution is how we all came to be (If that's what you believe... I'm still not sure what you believe). Prove to me how the Cambrian Explosion WASN'T the cause of them going back to the drawing board on the theory of evolution.
See, that's how the religous person justifies the existence of God. They throw it back at the non-believer to prove God DOESN'T exist. How can I prove something that has never existed exists (not sure how that reads)? There is no tangible evidence God has ever come to being. It's all hearsay in a book. I call the cops and say you killed someone. You have absolutely no alibi to validate you didn't kill this individual. You say you weren't there, but have no physical evidence to prove otherwise. So because I say you're a murderer, are you actually one? It's up to YOU to prove me wrong.
If I had the DNA of the very first human being that walked on this Earth, I could prove evolution. Unfortunately, that's not available to me. But the fact is, DNA can tell who we are and where we came from. We know that a human is developed in the womb of a woman. We know how the reproductive system works. It's the same for all mammals. The only question is, what was the first womb? Was it this Eve that is described in the bible, or were we a 'biological mistake' or 'freak of nature' where we developed from an ape embryo? Although I don't have the physical evidence to prove this, I can surmise that this is how it was done using scientific hypothesis. Can you do that to prove the existence of God?
What's ironic is theologist want to use the validity of scientific methods to prove their cause. You say scientist can't explain the Cambrian Explosion, which supposedly is one of the main objections to Darwin's Theory Of Evolution. Carbon dating and the dating of fossils is not an exact science. When you're talking about fossils and medium that's over 530 million years old, what do you have to compare it to? Also, where is the proof that a higher being caused this 'explosion' of these complex organism over a period of around 80 million years? Think how long that is. Scientist have evidence to prove that a lot of animals walking this planet today 'evolved' from various species of dinosaurs. Sure, it took millions of years for this evolution to occur, but it did just the same. So who knows. Maybe the process was just in high gear back then. What was around to stop it? Was it just the perfect conditions for that type of growth? Look at your front lawn. Don't water and fertilize it the right amount for the type of grass you have, and it grows real slow, or not at all. Give it the right amount of nutrients, the perfect dirt bed, and the right amount of water, and it grows like crazy. Twice as fast as not doing anything. Maybe that's what happened during the Cambrian Explosion. Simple organisms had the right 'dirt, water, and fertilizer' available to them to grow into more complex organisms.
http:///forum/post/3017528
I agree that the "look around you" theory isn't very scientific, but there is a little merit in it. If you were do do a little metal-detecting on the beach and found a watch, you'd know that someone made it. In the same way, you can look at the intricacies of the organisms and the variety in our organisms on this planet and you have to admit that something made it. The balance is so perfect that if ANYTHING were off, it wouldn't exist. It would be like me going to Washington D.C. and saying that the Lincoln memorial was a mere process or erosion... just like the fact that lincoln being a human was a process of evolution. In comparison, it just doesn't make sense.
But don't turn it around dude. Don't ask me the religious questions... you've had 3 1/2 pages of that. Now I want you to prove to me there is no God. Don't play the improbability card with me either... I've answered your questions and played your games... now I have legitimate questions of my own for YOU. Prove to me that evolution is how we all came to be (If that's what you believe... I'm still not sure what you believe). Prove to me how the Cambrian Explosion WASN'T the cause of them going back to the drawing board on the theory of evolution.
See, that's how the religous person justifies the existence of God. They throw it back at the non-believer to prove God DOESN'T exist. How can I prove something that has never existed exists (not sure how that reads)? There is no tangible evidence God has ever come to being. It's all hearsay in a book. I call the cops and say you killed someone. You have absolutely no alibi to validate you didn't kill this individual. You say you weren't there, but have no physical evidence to prove otherwise. So because I say you're a murderer, are you actually one? It's up to YOU to prove me wrong.
If I had the DNA of the very first human being that walked on this Earth, I could prove evolution. Unfortunately, that's not available to me. But the fact is, DNA can tell who we are and where we came from. We know that a human is developed in the womb of a woman. We know how the reproductive system works. It's the same for all mammals. The only question is, what was the first womb? Was it this Eve that is described in the bible, or were we a 'biological mistake' or 'freak of nature' where we developed from an ape embryo? Although I don't have the physical evidence to prove this, I can surmise that this is how it was done using scientific hypothesis. Can you do that to prove the existence of God?
What's ironic is theologist want to use the validity of scientific methods to prove their cause. You say scientist can't explain the Cambrian Explosion, which supposedly is one of the main objections to Darwin's Theory Of Evolution. Carbon dating and the dating of fossils is not an exact science. When you're talking about fossils and medium that's over 530 million years old, what do you have to compare it to? Also, where is the proof that a higher being caused this 'explosion' of these complex organism over a period of around 80 million years? Think how long that is. Scientist have evidence to prove that a lot of animals walking this planet today 'evolved' from various species of dinosaurs. Sure, it took millions of years for this evolution to occur, but it did just the same. So who knows. Maybe the process was just in high gear back then. What was around to stop it? Was it just the perfect conditions for that type of growth? Look at your front lawn. Don't water and fertilize it the right amount for the type of grass you have, and it grows real slow, or not at all. Give it the right amount of nutrients, the perfect dirt bed, and the right amount of water, and it grows like crazy. Twice as fast as not doing anything. Maybe that's what happened during the Cambrian Explosion. Simple organisms had the right 'dirt, water, and fertilizer' available to them to grow into more complex organisms.
bionicarm
Active Member
Originally Posted by dcoyle11
http:///forum/post/3017956
Not a problem bro.. I have been under busses before… just have been involved in many of these forums before and have found they do not get very far.. What I have learned in my Christian walk is that the word of God is what changes people not me. I drone off bible verses and such because God words are a whole more powerful than mine. Always spoken in love and they are alive, many times they are exactly what one may need to hear. I may not agree with some things each of you are saying to one another but I have found that arguing about it is never in love and always about US. This is what I do know, that God is good and his word does not come back void.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Remember we as Christians believe in our Lord and Savior being raised from the dead after three days, we certainly should believe the rest of the stuff God tells us.
So how is God telling you this TODAY. You're reading passages from a book written some 2000 years ago. Passages that weren't written by God himself, but from individuals who in reality, had no proof they spoke directly to God. Show me words, phrases, or verses that God has spoken in the last year, 10 years, 500 years. Show me any new and original words spoken by God that are not contained in the bible.
http:///forum/post/3017956
Not a problem bro.. I have been under busses before… just have been involved in many of these forums before and have found they do not get very far.. What I have learned in my Christian walk is that the word of God is what changes people not me. I drone off bible verses and such because God words are a whole more powerful than mine. Always spoken in love and they are alive, many times they are exactly what one may need to hear. I may not agree with some things each of you are saying to one another but I have found that arguing about it is never in love and always about US. This is what I do know, that God is good and his word does not come back void.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Remember we as Christians believe in our Lord and Savior being raised from the dead after three days, we certainly should believe the rest of the stuff God tells us.
So how is God telling you this TODAY. You're reading passages from a book written some 2000 years ago. Passages that weren't written by God himself, but from individuals who in reality, had no proof they spoke directly to God. Show me words, phrases, or verses that God has spoken in the last year, 10 years, 500 years. Show me any new and original words spoken by God that are not contained in the bible.
jdl
Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3017965
So how is God telling you this TODAY. You're reading passages from a book written some 2000 years ago. Passages that weren't written by God himself, but from individuals who in reality, had no proof they spoke directly to God. Show me words, phrases, or verses that God has spoken in the last year, 10 years, 500 years. Show me any new and original words spoken by God that are not contained in the bible.
didnt read this entire thread. But has it been mentioned that nobody that wrote the bible ever met god? wasnt the new testiment written some 500 years after his death?
http:///forum/post/3017965
So how is God telling you this TODAY. You're reading passages from a book written some 2000 years ago. Passages that weren't written by God himself, but from individuals who in reality, had no proof they spoke directly to God. Show me words, phrases, or verses that God has spoken in the last year, 10 years, 500 years. Show me any new and original words spoken by God that are not contained in the bible.
didnt read this entire thread. But has it been mentioned that nobody that wrote the bible ever met god? wasnt the new testiment written some 500 years after his death?
dcoyle11
Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3017965
So how is God telling you this TODAY. You're reading passages from a book written some 2000 years ago. Passages that weren't written by God himself, but from individuals who in reality, had no proof they spoke directly to God. Show me words, phrases, or verses that God has spoken in the last year, 10 years, 500 years. Show me any new and original words spoken by God that are not contained in the bible.
What I have learned in my Christian walk is that the word of God is what changes people not me.
You see I cannot tell you. Only God can. God does not talk to you because you do not let Him, you are not hearing Him because you do not let Him. Let God speak to you thru His word and you also may hear. I will not debate you I will never win. I can only give you His word in hopes that it too will change your life as it has mine and may others on this complex planet. When I look at things I believe they were created you do not. A watch implies to me a watch maker, a home a builder, the entire universe a creator. You may or may not believe this and I will never be able to convince you. LET God speak to you or let the things of this world speak to you. It’s up to you.. CHOICE..
Matthew 11:15
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Matthew 13:9
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Matthew 13:43
Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Mark 4:9
And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Mark 4:23
If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Mark 7:16
If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Luke 8:8
But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
Revelation 2:11
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’
Revelation 2:17
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’
Revelation 2:29
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Revelation 3:6
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Revelation 3:13
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Revelation 3:22
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”
Revelation 13:9
If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
dcoyle11
Member
Originally Posted by JDL
http:///forum/post/3017988
didnt read this entire thread. But has it been mentioned that nobody that wrote the bible ever met god? wasnt the new testiment written some 500 years after his death?
The book of Matthew: As an apostle, Matthew wrote this book in the early period of the church, probably around 50 AD.
The book of Mark: The Gospel of Mark was written in the New Testament, probably in 57-59 A.D.
The book of Luke: The Gospel of Luke was likely written between 58 and 65 A.D.
The book of John: Discovery of certain papyrus fragments dated around A.D. 135 require the book to have been written, copied, and circulated before then. And while some think it was written before Jerusalem was destroyed (A.D. 70), A.D. 85-90 is a more accepted time for its writing.
Acts: The Book of Acts was likely written between 61-64 A.D.
The book of Romans was likely written A.D. 56-58
The Book of Philippians was written in approximately 61 A.D.
The Book of Revelation was likely written between 90 and 95 A.D.
So we see the latest any of the New Testament was written was before 100 years after Christ death and resurrection.
The cool part is most of the stuff predicted in the Old Testament was written 500 to 1000 years before it happened. I like to say the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament Revealed.
http:///forum/post/3017988
didnt read this entire thread. But has it been mentioned that nobody that wrote the bible ever met god? wasnt the new testiment written some 500 years after his death?
The book of Matthew: As an apostle, Matthew wrote this book in the early period of the church, probably around 50 AD.
The book of Mark: The Gospel of Mark was written in the New Testament, probably in 57-59 A.D.
The book of Luke: The Gospel of Luke was likely written between 58 and 65 A.D.
The book of John: Discovery of certain papyrus fragments dated around A.D. 135 require the book to have been written, copied, and circulated before then. And while some think it was written before Jerusalem was destroyed (A.D. 70), A.D. 85-90 is a more accepted time for its writing.
Acts: The Book of Acts was likely written between 61-64 A.D.
The book of Romans was likely written A.D. 56-58
The Book of Philippians was written in approximately 61 A.D.
The Book of Revelation was likely written between 90 and 95 A.D.
So we see the latest any of the New Testament was written was before 100 years after Christ death and resurrection.
The cool part is most of the stuff predicted in the Old Testament was written 500 to 1000 years before it happened. I like to say the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament Revealed.
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by JDL
http:///forum/post/3017988
didnt read this entire thread. But has it been mentioned that nobody that wrote the bible ever met god? wasnt the new testiment written some 500 years after his death?
No.
http:///forum/post/3017988
didnt read this entire thread. But has it been mentioned that nobody that wrote the bible ever met god? wasnt the new testiment written some 500 years after his death?
No.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3017961
See, that's how the religous person justifies the existence of God. They throw it back at the non-believer to prove God DOESN'T exist. How can I prove something that has never existed exists (not sure how that reads)? There is no tangible evidence God has ever come to being. It's all hearsay in a book. I call the cops and say you killed someone. You have absolutely no alibi to validate you didn't kill this individual. You say you weren't there, but have no physical evidence to prove otherwise. So because I say you're a murderer, are you actually one? It's up to YOU to prove me wrong.
I like your murder analogy - you're speaking my language now - thanks! (No sarcasm) But you're overlooking something very important. Eyewitnesses. Bionic, we've found over 900 written accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection and they are still being found. If you want to talk about probability, then I highly doubt that all those 900 people got together and decided to tell the same story but got everyone fudge it a little so that it didn't sound exactly the same, word for word... I don't think they even knew what plagiarism was at the time.
Or lets talk about something else. How about the over 24,000 pieces of writing that were found which support the validity of the New Testament? Same idea... I don't think they all got together. Some of them were written as little as 5-10 years after the events they wrote about took place, which is one of the quickest writing proofs we have in reference to historical carbon-dating
Prove to me that Alexander the Great existed. All we have is a SINGLE (only one) story on a Single (only one) scroll which we found somewhere in europe. And yet you don't question his existence. No one questions it... it's believed to be so unequivocally true that we use it in all of today's textbooks. It's a perfect double-standard people accept because they don't want to see the truth - Jesus' story has astonomically more historical standing.
Or how about Caesar - the king of the known world at the time. 1,000 scrolls found (some dated being written 100 years AFTER Caesars reign), a few coins with his face on it, a few statues that were purposely destroyed long ago. Even Caesar doesn't have as accurate a historical base for us to draw from.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3017961
If I had the DNA of the very first human being that walked on this Earth, I could prove evolution. Unfortunately, that's not available to me. But the fact is, DNA can tell who we are and where we came from. We know that a human is developed in the womb of a woman. We know how the reproductive system works. It's the same for all mammals. The only question is, what was the first womb? Was it this Eve that is described in the bible, or were we a 'biological mistake' or 'freak of nature' where we developed from an ape embryo? Although I don't have the physical evidence to prove this, I can surmise that this is how it was done using scientific hypothesis. Can you do that to prove the existence of God?
This is also a good point, but again, I have to ask you... isn't this a chicken/egg theory? Which came first, the womb or the baby? The process is so intricate and perfected, how could it even have evolved? I'm not saying that God was the perfect designer (even though I think that) but I am saying that it is SO complex that it would be impossible to acheive on it's own. Dr. Michael Behe did the math and said that to assume evolution to be true would be assuming that you win the Jackpot Lotto every day for 23 years. Those odd's are so unlikely that you'd have to put an exuberant, blinding amount of "faith" into evolution... I'd say more faith in evolution than in Jesus, with his 24,000 scrolls of eyewitness evidence in stow. With evolution, all we have are scientific theories. Since these theories require millions of years to test, we can't really test them. By the time we get our results and our facts, we've all died and been gone for a loooong time.
Plus, it's so saddening to hear that an evolutionary breakthrough has been made, only to find that it was all a hoax, like that fossil of a half and half dragon/bird that surfaced a few years ago. I can't think of more off the top of my head, but I know if I did a little digging, I'd find about a half-dozen more hoaxes we've seen to support evolution that have been found out to be untrue.
http:///forum/post/3017961
See, that's how the religous person justifies the existence of God. They throw it back at the non-believer to prove God DOESN'T exist. How can I prove something that has never existed exists (not sure how that reads)? There is no tangible evidence God has ever come to being. It's all hearsay in a book. I call the cops and say you killed someone. You have absolutely no alibi to validate you didn't kill this individual. You say you weren't there, but have no physical evidence to prove otherwise. So because I say you're a murderer, are you actually one? It's up to YOU to prove me wrong.
I like your murder analogy - you're speaking my language now - thanks! (No sarcasm) But you're overlooking something very important. Eyewitnesses. Bionic, we've found over 900 written accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection and they are still being found. If you want to talk about probability, then I highly doubt that all those 900 people got together and decided to tell the same story but got everyone fudge it a little so that it didn't sound exactly the same, word for word... I don't think they even knew what plagiarism was at the time.
Or lets talk about something else. How about the over 24,000 pieces of writing that were found which support the validity of the New Testament? Same idea... I don't think they all got together. Some of them were written as little as 5-10 years after the events they wrote about took place, which is one of the quickest writing proofs we have in reference to historical carbon-dating
Prove to me that Alexander the Great existed. All we have is a SINGLE (only one) story on a Single (only one) scroll which we found somewhere in europe. And yet you don't question his existence. No one questions it... it's believed to be so unequivocally true that we use it in all of today's textbooks. It's a perfect double-standard people accept because they don't want to see the truth - Jesus' story has astonomically more historical standing.
Or how about Caesar - the king of the known world at the time. 1,000 scrolls found (some dated being written 100 years AFTER Caesars reign), a few coins with his face on it, a few statues that were purposely destroyed long ago. Even Caesar doesn't have as accurate a historical base for us to draw from.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3017961
If I had the DNA of the very first human being that walked on this Earth, I could prove evolution. Unfortunately, that's not available to me. But the fact is, DNA can tell who we are and where we came from. We know that a human is developed in the womb of a woman. We know how the reproductive system works. It's the same for all mammals. The only question is, what was the first womb? Was it this Eve that is described in the bible, or were we a 'biological mistake' or 'freak of nature' where we developed from an ape embryo? Although I don't have the physical evidence to prove this, I can surmise that this is how it was done using scientific hypothesis. Can you do that to prove the existence of God?
This is also a good point, but again, I have to ask you... isn't this a chicken/egg theory? Which came first, the womb or the baby? The process is so intricate and perfected, how could it even have evolved? I'm not saying that God was the perfect designer (even though I think that) but I am saying that it is SO complex that it would be impossible to acheive on it's own. Dr. Michael Behe did the math and said that to assume evolution to be true would be assuming that you win the Jackpot Lotto every day for 23 years. Those odd's are so unlikely that you'd have to put an exuberant, blinding amount of "faith" into evolution... I'd say more faith in evolution than in Jesus, with his 24,000 scrolls of eyewitness evidence in stow. With evolution, all we have are scientific theories. Since these theories require millions of years to test, we can't really test them. By the time we get our results and our facts, we've all died and been gone for a loooong time.
Plus, it's so saddening to hear that an evolutionary breakthrough has been made, only to find that it was all a hoax, like that fossil of a half and half dragon/bird that surfaced a few years ago. I can't think of more off the top of my head, but I know if I did a little digging, I'd find about a half-dozen more hoaxes we've seen to support evolution that have been found out to be untrue.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3017961
What's ironic is theologist want to use the validity of scientific methods to prove their cause. You say scientist can't explain the Cambrian Explosion, which supposedly is one of the main objections to Darwin's Theory Of Evolution. Carbon dating and the dating of fossils is not an exact science. When you're talking about fossils and medium that's over 530 million years old, what do you have to compare it to? Also, where is the proof that a higher being caused this 'explosion' of these complex organism over a period of around 80 million years? Think how long that is. Scientist have evidence to prove that a lot of animals walking this planet today 'evolved' from various species of dinosaurs. Sure, it took millions of years for this evolution to occur, but it did just the same. So who knows. Maybe the process was just in high gear back then. What was around to stop it? Was it just the perfect conditions for that type of growth? Look at your front lawn. Don't water and fertilize it the right amount for the type of grass you have, and it grows real slow, or not at all. Give it the right amount of nutrients, the perfect dirt bed, and the right amount of water, and it grows like crazy. Twice as fast as not doing anything. Maybe that's what happened during the Cambrian Explosion. Simple organisms had the right 'dirt, water, and fertilizer' available to them to grow into more complex organisms.
I see your point, and really like the grass-fertilizer idea. But in the case of evolution, where one animal evolves over 530 million years - to say that another animal evolved in the period of 5-10 million years is like the snap of a finger in comparison. What I'm saying is that in the case of the cambrian explosion, We had almost nothing before it, and pretty much everything after it. Some people say that it blows the "tree of life" idea out of the water, and that it instead should be called the "grass of life" because nothing seems to have come from a single-celled origin. The cambrian explosion single-handedly shows that each species had it's own genus, which is nothing the evolutionists can refute, and also nothing that evolutionists can justify theoretically using evolution as a base. It's confounding to them. I can guarantee you that if they said "well, it was just fertile in that time period" they'd have to prove how, why, where... yada yada.
Evolution has been a strong and very relevant theory for the last 100 years... but the truth is that as we get smarter, and make advances in science, we find that evolution has less and less of a valid standing in the scientific world. Some people get angry and cling to it because it's all they have, and all they've been taught. But to others, it's an opportunity to develop a theory that is entirely different. One that will give us another 100 years of theories to prove. I'm not saying that intelligent design is the way to go... I'm not even sure. But I am saying that we need to let go of evolution and "evolve" beyond our evolutionary scientific parameters. It's already happening. There will come a time where the theory of evolution becomes totally obsolete. I am actually really excited (driven by my scientific curiosity, not my spiritual curiosity) to see what they come up with.
http:///forum/post/3017961
What's ironic is theologist want to use the validity of scientific methods to prove their cause. You say scientist can't explain the Cambrian Explosion, which supposedly is one of the main objections to Darwin's Theory Of Evolution. Carbon dating and the dating of fossils is not an exact science. When you're talking about fossils and medium that's over 530 million years old, what do you have to compare it to? Also, where is the proof that a higher being caused this 'explosion' of these complex organism over a period of around 80 million years? Think how long that is. Scientist have evidence to prove that a lot of animals walking this planet today 'evolved' from various species of dinosaurs. Sure, it took millions of years for this evolution to occur, but it did just the same. So who knows. Maybe the process was just in high gear back then. What was around to stop it? Was it just the perfect conditions for that type of growth? Look at your front lawn. Don't water and fertilize it the right amount for the type of grass you have, and it grows real slow, or not at all. Give it the right amount of nutrients, the perfect dirt bed, and the right amount of water, and it grows like crazy. Twice as fast as not doing anything. Maybe that's what happened during the Cambrian Explosion. Simple organisms had the right 'dirt, water, and fertilizer' available to them to grow into more complex organisms.
I see your point, and really like the grass-fertilizer idea. But in the case of evolution, where one animal evolves over 530 million years - to say that another animal evolved in the period of 5-10 million years is like the snap of a finger in comparison. What I'm saying is that in the case of the cambrian explosion, We had almost nothing before it, and pretty much everything after it. Some people say that it blows the "tree of life" idea out of the water, and that it instead should be called the "grass of life" because nothing seems to have come from a single-celled origin. The cambrian explosion single-handedly shows that each species had it's own genus, which is nothing the evolutionists can refute, and also nothing that evolutionists can justify theoretically using evolution as a base. It's confounding to them. I can guarantee you that if they said "well, it was just fertile in that time period" they'd have to prove how, why, where... yada yada.
Evolution has been a strong and very relevant theory for the last 100 years... but the truth is that as we get smarter, and make advances in science, we find that evolution has less and less of a valid standing in the scientific world. Some people get angry and cling to it because it's all they have, and all they've been taught. But to others, it's an opportunity to develop a theory that is entirely different. One that will give us another 100 years of theories to prove. I'm not saying that intelligent design is the way to go... I'm not even sure. But I am saying that we need to let go of evolution and "evolve" beyond our evolutionary scientific parameters. It's already happening. There will come a time where the theory of evolution becomes totally obsolete. I am actually really excited (driven by my scientific curiosity, not my spiritual curiosity) to see what they come up with.
bionicarm
Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3018075
I see your point, and really like the grass-fertilizer idea. But in the case of evolution, where one animal evolves over 530 million years - to say that another animal evolved in the period of 5-10 million years is like the snap of a finger in comparison. What I'm saying is that in the case of the cambrian explosion, We had almost nothing before it, and pretty much everything after it. Some people say that it blows the "tree of life" idea out of the water, and that it instead should be called the "grass of life" because nothing seems to have come from a single-celled origin. The cambrian explosion single-handedly shows that each species had it's own genus, which is nothing the evolutionists can refute, and also nothing that evolutionists can justify theoretically using evolution as a base. It's confounding to them. I can guarantee you that if they said "well, it was just fertile in that time period" they'd have to prove how, why, where... yada yada.
Evolution has been a strong and very relevant theory for the last 100 years... but the truth is that as we get smarter, and make advances in science, we find that evolution has less and less of a valid standing in the scientific world. Some people get angry and cling to it because it's all they have, and all they've been taught. But to others, it's an opportunity to develop a theory that is entirely different. One that will give us another 100 years of theories to prove. I'm not saying that intelligent design is the way to go... I'm not even sure. But I am saying that we need to let go of evolution and "evolve" beyond our evolutionary scientific parameters. It's already happening. There will come a time where the theory of evolution becomes totally obsolete. I am actually really excited (driven by my scientific curiosity, not my spiritual curiosity) to see what they come up with.
Was it only 5-10 million years? I thought it was 50 to 80. Irregardless, just think how much time that is. Look how fast a single cell in your body reproduces on a daily basis. You're saying that a simple organism couldn't evolve into a complex organism in that amount of time without the assistance of a higher being? As I stated before, carbon dating and determining the exact age of something isn't perfect. Don't know the exact figure, but I would be willing to guess at least a 10% margin of error. Even more the farther back you go. These Cambrian organisms could have come to being in a totally different period. However, scientist at least have something to test. What do the theologeans have to test God exists?
They may have physical proof Jesus did in fact live. But what proof do they have to validate who they say he was? The bible says he 'walked on water', 'turned water into wine', 'fed thousands with one loaf of bread'. Those same events have been recreated by magicians in present time. Whose to say Jesus was just a common man that used magic tricks to get his message across about his faith? He attributed talking to his Father by believing the voices he heard in his head were Him speaking. Sounds far-fetched? Maybe. But it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Actually there was a 'womb' available for humans to develop in back then. Don't know if you call them apes, neanderthals, whatever. But the womb was there. Humans could just be this one big freak of nature.
http:///forum/post/3018075
I see your point, and really like the grass-fertilizer idea. But in the case of evolution, where one animal evolves over 530 million years - to say that another animal evolved in the period of 5-10 million years is like the snap of a finger in comparison. What I'm saying is that in the case of the cambrian explosion, We had almost nothing before it, and pretty much everything after it. Some people say that it blows the "tree of life" idea out of the water, and that it instead should be called the "grass of life" because nothing seems to have come from a single-celled origin. The cambrian explosion single-handedly shows that each species had it's own genus, which is nothing the evolutionists can refute, and also nothing that evolutionists can justify theoretically using evolution as a base. It's confounding to them. I can guarantee you that if they said "well, it was just fertile in that time period" they'd have to prove how, why, where... yada yada.
Evolution has been a strong and very relevant theory for the last 100 years... but the truth is that as we get smarter, and make advances in science, we find that evolution has less and less of a valid standing in the scientific world. Some people get angry and cling to it because it's all they have, and all they've been taught. But to others, it's an opportunity to develop a theory that is entirely different. One that will give us another 100 years of theories to prove. I'm not saying that intelligent design is the way to go... I'm not even sure. But I am saying that we need to let go of evolution and "evolve" beyond our evolutionary scientific parameters. It's already happening. There will come a time where the theory of evolution becomes totally obsolete. I am actually really excited (driven by my scientific curiosity, not my spiritual curiosity) to see what they come up with.
Was it only 5-10 million years? I thought it was 50 to 80. Irregardless, just think how much time that is. Look how fast a single cell in your body reproduces on a daily basis. You're saying that a simple organism couldn't evolve into a complex organism in that amount of time without the assistance of a higher being? As I stated before, carbon dating and determining the exact age of something isn't perfect. Don't know the exact figure, but I would be willing to guess at least a 10% margin of error. Even more the farther back you go. These Cambrian organisms could have come to being in a totally different period. However, scientist at least have something to test. What do the theologeans have to test God exists?
They may have physical proof Jesus did in fact live. But what proof do they have to validate who they say he was? The bible says he 'walked on water', 'turned water into wine', 'fed thousands with one loaf of bread'. Those same events have been recreated by magicians in present time. Whose to say Jesus was just a common man that used magic tricks to get his message across about his faith? He attributed talking to his Father by believing the voices he heard in his head were Him speaking. Sounds far-fetched? Maybe. But it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Actually there was a 'womb' available for humans to develop in back then. Don't know if you call them apes, neanderthals, whatever. But the womb was there. Humans could just be this one big freak of nature.
rslinger
Member
I didn't read this whole thing either but.........My feelings are that the bible was made up to better control people. Aka the 10 commandments. The few things that have been found were set up to get people to believe more. Didn't they carbon date this stuff wasn't it not that old? I haven't read the bible in 10 years but doesn't say the earth was created like 10,000 years ago or so? OK then explain to me the dinosaurs and such.
Now that being said I don't believe that religion is bad for people to have in there lives. I choose to believe what I believe but I raise my children to believe in the bible. When they get old enough to form there own opinion they can. It gives them morals now though. I don't' think religion should be done away with because yes it does serve its purpose, makes people believe in moral condemnation if they commit bad acts. The thought of heaven is almost the most foolish to me when you die you die you go in a hole in the ground that is it.
Now that being said I don't believe that religion is bad for people to have in there lives. I choose to believe what I believe but I raise my children to believe in the bible. When they get old enough to form there own opinion they can. It gives them morals now though. I don't' think religion should be done away with because yes it does serve its purpose, makes people believe in moral condemnation if they commit bad acts. The thought of heaven is almost the most foolish to me when you die you die you go in a hole in the ground that is it.
tang master
Member
why do athiests care so much about other peoples live, including religious ones.