The "N" word vs the "N" word...

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word#post_3528034
Lets take this a different direction
90% of murdered black people are murdered by black people.
70 of white murders are murdered by black people.
There is obviously a significant cultural problem just based off these statistics.
My question is why are the percentages this drastic?
Darth ( examining the real details) tang
I see this kind of stat in discussions, but where is the actual data?

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528058
I see this kind of stat in discussions, but where is the actual data?
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3
You have to factor not only the amount of offenses but also the percentages in relation to the amount of blacks, whites, latino in the nation. Young black males out number latinos which out number white murderers by far. The latino crimes are on the rise and catching up to blacks as the numbers of gang members in the country increase.

 

[beth]

That chart doesn't point out the ratio of black on black, black on white, white on black, etc.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528061
That chart doesn't point out the ratio of black on black, black on white, white on black, etc.
There's a plethora of data on the FBI website which is broken down into all sorts of categories. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data
I merely picked one piece outlining the crimes of murder committed by black and white folk during a particular year. Interestingly the sheer amount of the crime of murder committed by blacks took a huge drop in black males once they reached their 30's. The majority is being done by ages 17-29. While the number of whites takes a slow drop as age increasing. And strange enough it looks like old white guys kill a lot more people than older black gentlemen.

 

[beth]

Still no stat on race on race which is what DT's stat references. I'd like to see that because those stats are always thrown out and its a given that they're accurate? I'd like to see an objective source for those stats.
According to the FBI site, white murderers and black murderers are running about the same numbers, and the overwhelming murderer group is male. Now there are a lot less black people in this country then white, so you could say that more murders are resulting from black offenders.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528063
Still no stat on race on race which is what DT's stat references. I'd like to see that because those stats are always thrown out and its a given that they're accurate? I'd like to see an objective source for those stats.
According to the FBI site, white murderers and black murderers are running about the same numbers, and the overwhelming murderer group is male. Now there are a lot less black people in this country then white, so you could say that more murders are resulting from black offenders.
The other data would be on the census website. I'm not near the info now. The numbers as a whole are close. What you have to take into account is the number of white males vs black males between 17-29 in the country. There are a lot less black males but yet they do commit the most total amount of homicides. That's where the high percentages come from.

 

[fattytwobyfour]

We studied all kinds of statistics like this while I was working on my psychology degree. You are more likely to be convicted if you are black, especially if it's a crime where a white person is the victim. Those statistics don't hold true if you reverse the roles & the crime involves a white perpetrator and black victim.
I'm not sure if I still access to the databases that I did while in school. I'll have to check & see.
Yes, there are more black males in prison, but that is because you are more likely to be convicted. There are all kinds of variables that can come into the equation. But it's not fair to simply say "young black males commit more crimes" without looking at the whole picture, & leaving it at that. (And I'm not saying y'all said that).

 

[beth]

Quote:
90% of murdered black people are murdered by black people.
70 of white murders are murdered by black people.
This is the stat from above. This kind of stat is frequently cited. It does't matter if there are less black people in the population when looking at this stat. The stat is basically saying that more black people murder other black people, and more black people murder white people. No matter the population size.
My question is where is the proof aside from just saying its so? I'd like to see if that is backed up by a reliable source.

 

[fattytwobyfour]

Beth, I don't think there is a reliable source for that figure. That just sounds like one of those statistics that just keep getting repeated, until people believe that it is true. There are so many variables that would be involved that I'm not sure how you could design a study and end up with those numbers and that conclusion as the end result. I'm sure you've heard of the study that says increased ice cream consumption causes the number of murders in Chicago to rise.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528066
This is the stat from above. This kind of stat is frequently cited. It does't matter if there are less black people in the population when looking at this stat. The stat is basically saying that more black people murder other black people, and more black people murder white people. No matter the population size.
My question is where is the proof aside from just saying its so? I'd like to see if that is backed up by a reliable source.
The data is there. The feds collect it through a number of ways including court docs I'm sure. Every state has that data and it all goes to the fed. The stats that you cited above IMO is really just a way of throwing the numbers out there as to point a finger at where the biggest problems appear to be coming from. It is ignoring everything else. From what I had looked into and my rough calculations technically the percentages do seem fairly accurate. Above and beyond that I don't know how else to prove what the states and federal government report.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattytwobyfour http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528068
Beth, I don't think there is a reliable source for that figure. That just sounds like one of those statistics that just keep getting repeated, until people believe that it is true.
That is why I'd like to actually see some real stats. You do hear this over and over (by whites). Is it true, or not?

 

[fattytwobyfour]

I don't see how it could be true. It goes against everything I learned in the first week of my Statistics class.
Read this article:
http://biojournalism.com/2012/08/correlation-vs-causation/

 

[mohawkninja]

How has this conversation gone from the "N-word" to murder rates of different races?

 

[fattytwobyfour]

This is the main point of the article:
"But the problem is that positive correlative relationships do not necessarily lead to causal relationships even when common sense might suggest it. We use cause and effect to make sense of our world. It is easy to point to correlative relationships and say Hey! A causes B!
Its not always that easy though. If we see an increase in both cell phone use and cancer rates, that is a positive correlative relationship.
But does cell phone use cause cancer? This is why scientists spend so much time studying topics. Just because they prove a positive correlative relationship between two things does not mean they have found the cause behind a change.
This is an important realization for anyone who wants to understand science. We can all fall victim to our own common sense and not properly question or test a hypothesis."

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528071
That is why I'd like to actually see some real stats. You do hear this over and over (by whites). Is it true, or not?
Define "real stats"....maybe we can find some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkninja http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528073
How has this conversation gone from the "N-word" to murder rates of different races?
Darth, posed a question referencing why there have been such clear and documented differences over the years which I had believed to be an effort to understanding why. We were examining facts and stats. Hopefully in an effort to understand and not for the mere reason of pointing fingers. It's a touchy subject and hard to talk about with out tempers flaring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fattytwobyfour http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528074
This is the main point of the article:
"But the problem is that positive correlative relationships do not necessarily lead to causal relationships even when common sense might suggest it. We use cause and effect to make sense of our world. It is easy to point to correlative relationships and say Hey! A causes B!
Its not always that easy though. If we see an increase in both cell phone use and cancer rates, that is a positive correlative relationship.
But does cell phone use cause cancer? This is why scientists spend so much time studying topics. Just because they prove a positive correlative relationship between two things does not mean they have found the cause behind a change.
This is an important realization for anyone who wants to understand science. We can all fall victim to our own common sense and not properly question or test a hypothesis."
Not sure I catch where you're going with this and how it relates to what you learned in stats class. Can you elaborate?

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkninja http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528073
How has this conversation gone from the "N-word" to murder rates of different races?
I think the discussion on Trayvon and Zimmerman, the use of N word and who has a right to use it, and now who is responsible for most murders is a discussion more about the perceptions that the races have about each other.

 

[2quills]

This is a huge national issue right now. If we can't talk about it then I don't see how we can ever understand it and get passed it. In my life time all I've seen is things getting better in this regard. Racism is not gone and a lot of it has gone under the surface since everything has a law against it. But we have far greater people getting along across the spectrum much better than we had in the passed. We should keep moving that way.

 

[darthtang aw]

Leave it to beth to question without the link or data provided to back it up. One of my nubers was off. Did this purposely to test a theory of mine. My theory was confirmed.
Here is a link that sources the fbi statistics provided in the previous links. The fbi stats are hard to read and require on take the time to run the numbers.
This link simplifies that for you.
http://www.hhscenter.org/bonbstat.html

 

[fattytwobyfour]

I'm saying that using race as an identifier in statistical analysis usually represents a correlational relationship-- not a causal relationship. It is easy when quoting statistics on this issue to use it as a causal relationship to back a viewpoint up.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattytwobyfour http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528081
I'm saying that using race as an identifier in statistical analysis usually represents a correlational relationship-- not a causal relationship. It is easy when quoting statistics on this issue to use it as a causal relationship to back a viewpoint up.
Right, if you're going to look at the facts then look at all of the facts. Fact is, we can argue them all day. What are we going to do about it? In order to get everybody to abide by all laws requires some people to be something that they are not. Doesn't matter who you are. With everything in the media we are practically conditioned to racism and stereotypes. What is classified as criminal behavior is glorified through media, movies, music, video games etc.
People are going to be identifiable one way or another.