The "N" word vs the "N" word...

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528079
Leave it to beth to question without the link or data provided to back it up. One of my nubers was off. Did this purposely to test a theory of mine. My theory was confirmed.
Here is a link that sources the fbi statistics provided in the previous links. The fbi stats are hard to read and require on take the time to run the numbers.
This link simplifies that for you.
http://www.hhscenter.org/bonbstat.html
DT, I think if people are going to make statements about criminality statistics, particularly if its directed at a specific population, then having the actual stat to back it up with is a good idea.
I didn't question, I only asked for the back up. Backing something like this up with an actual source for the info is the best way to avoid being overzealous in quoting a stat that isn't supported or which may lean toward supporting an opinion rather than a fact.

 

[reefraff]

A lot of what gets passed off as racism today is more a result of cultural differences than a feeling of superiority over another race. When I was a kid there was one black kid in my elementary and then middle school. He was just one of the guys who talked and dressed like the rest of us. When I was about to start high school we moved to a town where about 10 or 15 percent of the school was black. It was my first real exposure to kids who were raised within the black culture. First year was a real learning experience but all things considered I'd say I adapted pretty well.
Some of you are probably too young to relate to this but it was the early 70's. We had 5 TV channels. There wasn't a wealth of TV shows that exposed people to cultures other than whites until Sanford and Son came out. Before that you had Uhura on Star Trek and a number of other "tokens" on different TV series.

 

[bang guy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkninja http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/20#post_3528073
How has this conversation gone from the "N-word" to murder rates of different races?
+1 Totally derailed.

 

[darthtang aw]

AnDT, I think if people are going to make statements about criminality statistics, particularly if its directed at a specific population, then having the actual stat to back it up with is a good idea.
I didn't question, I only asked for the back up.  Backing something like this up with an actual source for the info is the best way to avoid being overzealous in quoting a stat that isn't supported or which may lean toward supporting an opinion rather than a fact.
By doing so you cemented my thoughts on how this would play out. Thanks.

 

[fattytwobyfour]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/40#post_3528101
An
By doing so you cemented my thoughts on how this would play out. Thanks.
I see nothing wrong with Beth asking for empirical evidence of your baseless claim?

 

[darthtang aw]

I see nothing wrong with Beth asking for empirical evidence of your baseless claim?  :%%:
Did I say there was?
As far as baseless claim comment, did you even dig into the site i linked my info from? Or are you just calling it baseless because you don't like the numbers?

 

[fattytwobyfour]

I seen the statistics. I don't have a problem with the numbers. But until you can produce empirical data of the studies conducted, you can't really know what the results of those numbers mean. The reason scientist do studies and publish them is so the studies can be replicated and tested.
Have you never heard that "correlation does not imply causation?" You were implying the opposite when you said:
90% of murdered black people are murdered by black people.
70 of white murders are murdered by black people.
There is obviously a significant cultural problem just based off these statistics.
I don't have a problem with the numbers, but I do have a problem with the conclusion you reached from them.

 

[2quills]

I've still been waiting for evidence to the contrary as well. The effort seems a bit one sided.
(spell check)

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/40#post_3528112
I've still been waiting for evidence to the contrary we well. The effort seems a bit one sided.
Not sure what you mean ??

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/40#post_3528113
Not sure what you mean ??
Meaning a question was posed with some pretty loose info thrown out there. Instead of anyone really going out of their own way to disprove the information, folks invariably gravitated towards discrediting it without much to back it up. I posted links to the feds site which has all of the data. But something tells me that even a smoking gun was sitting right in front of folks if they don't want to believe it then they're not going to believe it no matter what you show them.

 

[beth]

I looked at the site you posted. I looked at the site DT posted and looked at the gov sites used as references. I didn't see the info readily available. Now maybe I can spend some time piecing something together myself, but I'm not the one who threw out the statistics nor the conclusions. So, I don't think its up to me to prove or disprove. I simply asked if there was backing for that.
My point was that people provide similar info all the time which point out that black people commit more murders then anyone else. While I'm not saying that's not true, I do kinda wonder about why the stats are used so much in discussions such as this one and where exactly that info comes from.
If you attend a class and start presenting information as fact, you can bet you lunch money that the teacher will ask you to back that up with reliable source material.

 

[fattytwobyfour]

There was no need to discredit it. He did so himself in the way he interpreted the results of the statistics. If he brought forth a valid study that we could pick apart, then there may be need to post other sources and have a discussion. I posted enough reasons in my above post as to why it is wrong to use statistics in the way that he was using them.

 

[fattytwobyfour]

Beth, I think you are the only other person here who gets what I am trying to say. You must've taken a stats class at some point too.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word#post_3528034
90% of murdered black people are murdered by black people.
70 of white murders are murdered by black people.
There is obviously a significant cultural problem just based off these statistics.
My question is why are the percentages this drastic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/40#post_3528124
I looked at the site you posted. I looked at the site DT posted and looked at the gov sites used as references. I didn't see the info readily available. Now maybe I can spend some time piecing something together myself, but I'm not the one who threw out the statistics nor the conclusions. So, I don't think its up to me to prove or disprove. I simply asked if there was backing for that.
My point was that people provide similar info all the time which point out that black people commit more murders then anyone else. While I'm not saying that's not true, I do kinda wonder about why the stats are used so much in discussions such as this one and where exactly that info comes from.
If you attend a class and start presenting information as fact, you can bet you lunch money that the teacher will ask you to back that up with reliable source material.
The info comes from here. These numbers were tossed around on the national news the other night. Darth's first percentage of black on black homicides is accurate according to the FBI. But his percentage of whites murdered by blacks is way off. It's actually more like 70% of whites murdered by whites (not blacks). Where he's going with his line of questioning is anyone's guess.
You can finish crunch the numbers if you wish. But I can pretty much look at them and come to the same conclusion. I would do the rest of the math but it's late and I'm not being payed for this. Hopefully we can put this one to bed. You'll have to come to you're own conclusions whether or not to trust the numbers in any kind of reliable way.
Blacks murdered by blacks is 2447 out of 2695
Blacks murdered by whites is 193 out of 2695
Whites murdered by whites is 2630 out of 3172
Whites murdered by blacks is 448 out of 3172
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Offenses Known to Law Enforcement
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About CIUS

Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
Murder
Race and Sex of Victim by Race and Sex of Offender, 2011
[Single victim/single offender]
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• 
  Download Excel

Race of victim



Total

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Race of offender


Sex of offender



White



Black



Other



Unknown

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Male


Female



Unknown



White



3,172



2,630

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448


33



61



2,810



301



61

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Black


2,695



193



2,447



9



46

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2,385


264



46



Other race



180



45



36



99



0



155



25



0



Unknown race

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84


36



27



3



18



63

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3


18





Sex of victim



Total



Race of offender



Sex of offender



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White


Black



Other



Unknown



Male



Female

; border-left-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: right; vertical-align: middle; background-position: 0px 0px; background-repeat: repeat repeat;">
Unknown


Male



4,304



1,834



2,289



87

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94


3,760



450



94



Female



1,743



1,034
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642



54



13



1,590



140



13

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Unknown sex


84



36



27



3



18

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63


3



18

• 
  NOTE: This table is based on incidents where some information about the offender is known by law enforcement; therefore, when the offender age, sex, and race are all reported as unknown, these data are excluded from the table.

 

[darthtang aw]

I see the class hasn't caught on to what i am actually trying to prove. Quills is getting close with one of his comments. But everyone seems to be hung up on what my original question was based off the stats.
My comment was not to spark a discussion on the cultural differences and their relation to racial murder rates. My comments were made to see how people would react to the stats given and the implication behind the stats. I have seen and confirmed my thoughts.
As to the information i presented. One number was true. One was not. Yet both were discreditted at once or both were accepted at once.
My link is from an organizantion ran by african americans the actively try to reduce black on black crime. Does this add credibility to the source and how the numbers given by the fbi are interpretted?
What data is required to confirm the percentage i know to be true. Has anyone took the time to figure out which number is true? Or must on be spoon fed?
As to the cultural difference. I think that is obvious. But i guess i could be wrong as well as no one seems to wish to approach this aspect either. Better to say the numbers are wrong and not hold the conversation. Or agree the numbers are correct and still not touch on the cultural differences that may attribute. Why not?
Do drug isers have cultural differences from non drug users?
Do serial killers have cultural differences to the rest of society?
How about rapists?
Money launderers?
Bank robbers?

 

[darthtang aw]

Very good quills. You posted while i was.
What have we learned by posting one accurate number and one false number? How did people react to those percentages. Your fracking discussion is applicable.
My other questions are just to keep discussion going. I find myself reacting the same way i have seen some react to this to numbers and percentages they dont like.
Beth asked the question i expected her to ask. I also expected bang guy to ask the same thing. Just about everyone reacted the way i expected. Which gives me an i cite into why our political climate is what it is today. Unless someone figures out what i was truly testing by tomorrow i will explain further.
In all honesty i am trying to break myself from doing exactly what i see many doing in this thread. In the past i am guilty of doing exactly what many have done.
Darth ( experimenting) tang

 

[fattytwobyfour]

The numbers are not the problem. The problem arises when you imply that blacks are more likely to commit a crime or murder and if you are white, you are less likely. Those statistics are just numbers. They don't control for other things such as income status, education, or single parent home to name a few different variables. While it may be a good starting point, you can't really reach any real scientific conclusion until you have controlled for some if those other factors. That is my point, if that makes sense?

 

[fattytwobyfour]

Before trying to design an experiment, I'd suggest taking some research methods classes, & a statistics class. People might then take those efforts more seriously & it might actually contribute to the greater good of the world. I know this is just a message board, but still.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattytwobyfour http:///t/396046/the-n-word-vs-the-n-word/40#post_3528131
The numbers are not the problem. The problem arises when you imply that blacks are more likely to commit a crime or murder and if you are white, you are less likely. Those statistics are just numbers. They don't control for other things such as income status, education, or single parent home to name a few different variables. While it may be a good starting point, you can't really reach any real scientific conclusion until you have controlled for some if those other factors. That is my point, if that makes sense?
Makes good sense. The numbers are not an answer to anything. As I had suggested back on page #1 there are many variables that can effect the outcome those numbers.

 

[fattytwobyfour]

Makes good sense.  The numbers are not an answer to anything.  As I had suggested back on page #1 there are many variables that can effect the outcome those numbers.  
Exactly. I took several years of research and design, and actually designed a study around trustworthiness of serial killers. The news can sometimes be the worst in taking a statistic and assuming something for a news story out of it. You've got to continue testing all variables involved to start getting closer to the truth. That's my whole point in this as well. I could bend some of those same statistics in a way that supports my viewpoint. That is why there is methods and steps put into place to take the bias out.