The Pledge of Allegiance in schools

crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by ruaround
http:///forum/post/2556758
realize that this is the US... the nation that you are pledging to... you are pledging ALLEGIANCE (look the word up i know its not on the bar) TO THIS COUNTRY!!! the country that lets you speak your mind... lets you as an individual not be persecuted for having a different opinion than 1journey or the government...go north or south and start up your practice there man... then come back here and beg to once again to have the right to say "i dont want to say the pledge and i dont want my kiddos to say it either"...
I agree with you 100%. This country was founded on the freedom of speech, religion (or lack thereof), assembly, right to bare arms, etc. I'd like to think that an inherent part of this country's ideals is the freedom of thought. Just for the record, I love this country and the freedom it grants. But, even if I disagreed with the words in the pledge and the concept of an almighty g-d then, as an American, I shouldn't be compelled to recite these words. Again, why can't loyalty, allegiance and religion be taught in the home? Our country was created by a bunch of people that fought and died for the freedoms that we have. If we don't protect these freedoms for the minorities then do they exists at all?
 
ruaround

ruaround

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556768
I agree with you 100%. This country was founded on the freedom of speech, religion (or lack thereof), assembly, right to bare arms, etc. I'd like to think that an inherent part of this country's ideals is the freedom of thought. Just for the record, I love this country and the freedom it grants. But, even if I disagreed with the words in the pledge and the concept of an almighty g-d then, as an American, I shouldn't be compelled to recite these words. Again, why can't loyalty, allegiance and religion be taught in the home? Our country was created by a bunch of people that fought and died for the freedoms that we have. If we don't protect these freedoms for the minorities then do they exists at all?
you have kids... and saying the pledge may be the only thing they actually can do with EVERY other kid in the class... THAT is what i remember about the pledge... every single person in the school unified saying the same thing at the same time and feeling proud that i was a part of it... a part of this great nation!!! if anyone wants to omit saying "god" i dont really GARA!!! hold a silent count for one beat...
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556768
I agree with you 100%. This country was founded on the freedom of speech, religion (or lack thereof), assembly, right to bare arms, etc. I'd like to think that an inherent part of this country's ideals is the freedom of thought. Just for the record, I love this country and the freedom it grants. But, even if I disagreed with the words in the pledge and the concept of an almighty g-d then, as an American, I shouldn't be compelled to recite these words. Again, why can't loyalty, allegiance and religion be taught in the home? Our country was created by a bunch of people that fought and died for the freedoms that we have. If we don't protect these freedoms for the minorities then do they exists at all?
Oh give me a break Crimzy. Did your parents raise you this way? Are you telling me that you never said the pledge in school? I highly doubt it.
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2556776
Oh give me a break Crimzy. Did your parents raise you this way? Are you telling me that you never said the pledge in school? I highly doubt it.
No, I said it everyday. But as I've grown older, I'm not sure that I'll be crushed if my daughters don't say it, (just so everyone is aware, I don't really care if they do say it either). I just have a slight issue with the concept of government imposed principles. And as an aside, I do think that the concept of majority rule, no minority voice is inherently un-American. If there was no minority voice, then we would still be a colony of England, the jews would be extinct and black people would still be slaves. Understand that the greatness of this country and the constitution was founded upon the freedoms of EVERY man, not just a member of the majority.
To protect the freedoms of every man then you must protect them for the most objectionable situations. This is the only guarantee that the freedoms we hold dear are real.
And just so you know, my family sounds more like you when we debate than me. I'm the BLACK SHEEP.
 
t316

t316

Active Member
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2556738
In my honest opinion, if you have a problem with the school and them having the pledge in the morning announcements, or any other religious aspect that may come up in school, then keep your kids home. Teach them yourself if public school is so bad. Find an atheist private school to teach the children, or home school them. You can teach them whatever morals you would like.

Couldn't agree more. I actually pledged to the American flag tonight, at Boy Scouts. And I am always so proud to look around and see all those boys saluting with respect. What has this world come to?
Regarding schools, I have all 3 of my kids in private school where they not only pledge to the American flag every morning, not only do they pray every morning, but they are hugged and told "I love you" many times a day by their teachers and Principal. I don't bring this up because I'm a "Bible thumper", as I disrespect the analogy and if you knew me, quite the contrary, but rather as a parent and an American that has the right to raise my offspring any way I feel desired. And all of you have the same right. And before you slam me with the "private school...I can't afford crap"...you can afford. You choose what you want to spend your money on, including this SW habit, so if you want to enroll in Sadaam Academy, there are others on here that sacrifice their lives to give you that right.
Back to public schools...My kids are not in private school because I am protesting public schools. I support the public school system, and my taxes should dang well prove it. Rather, I respect the public system, and acknowledge that non-christians attend and have equal rights, so my beliefs should not be forced upon them. However, in regards to pledging/reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America, or not, because of the word "God" (and yes, it should be capitalized) is anti-American. I refer back to numerous other posts in this thread that use of the word "God" can be individualized to your beliefs....whether that be Jesus Christ, St. Mary, Playstation 3, Budweiser, you get the point.
 
ruaround

ruaround

Active Member

Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2556783

Couldn't agree more. I actually pledged to the American flag tonight, at Boy Scouts. And I am always so proud to look around and see all those boys saluting with respect. What has this world come to?
Regarding schools, I have all 3 of my kids in private school where they not only pledge to the American flag every morning, not only do they pray every morning, but they are hugged and told "I love you" many times a day by their teachers and Principal. I don't bring this up because I'm a "Bible thumper", as I disrespect the analogy and if you knew me, quite the contrary, but rather as a parent and an American that has the right to raise my offspring any way I feel desired. And all of you have the same right. And before you slam me with the "private school...I can't afford crap"...you can afford. You choose what you want to spend your money on, including this SW habit, so if you want to enroll in Sadaam Academy, there are others on here that sacrifice their lives to give you that right.
Back to public schools...My kids are not in private school because I am protesting public schools. I support the public school system, and my taxes should dang well prove it. Rather, I respect the public system, and acknowledge that non-christians attend and have equal rights, so my beliefs should not be forced upon them. However, in regards to pledging/reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America, or not, because of the word "God" (and yes, it should be capitalized) is anti-American. I refer back to numerous other posts in this thread that use of the word "God" can be individualized to your beliefs....whether that be Jesus Christ, St. Mary, Playstation 3, Budweiser, you get the point.
AMEN BROTHER!!!
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556782
No, I said it everyday. But as I've grown older, I'm not sure that I'll be crushed if my daughters don't say it, (just so everyone is aware, I don't really care if they do say it either). I just have a slight issue with the concept of government imposed principles. And as an aside, I do think that the concept of majority rule, no minority voice is inherently un-American. If there was no minority voice, then we would still be a colony of England, the jews would be extinct and black people would still be slaves. Understand that the greatness of this country and the constitution was founded upon the freedoms of EVERY man, not just a member of the majority.
To protect the freedoms of every man then you must protect them for the most objectionable situations. This is the only guarantee that the freedoms we hold dear are real.
And just so you know, my family sounds more like you when we debate than me. I'm the BLACK SHEEP.

In my class, and I am sure throughout the middle school, they don't have to say it, but they do have to be quiet and stand during the pledge. I understand what you are saying. If you have a problem with government imposed principles, like I said before, don't send your kids to public school. The difference with the situations that you mentioned, throughout history and America today, is that you DO have a choice. Keep your kids in the shelter of your home and teach them any morals that you see fit. Home school your kids. It is as simple as that. If you don't like public school then home school them.
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2556783

Couldn't agree more. I actually pledged to the American flag tonight, at Boy Scouts. And I am always so proud to look around and see all those boys saluting with respect. What has this world come to?
Regarding schools, I have all 3 of my kids in private school where they not only pledge to the American flag every morning, not only do they pray every morning, but they are hugged and told "I love you" many times a day by their teachers and Principal. I don't bring this up because I'm a "Bible thumper", as I disrespect the analogy and if you knew me, quite the contrary, but rather as a parent and an American that has the right to raise my offspring any way I feel desired. And all of you have the same right. And before you slam me with the "private school...I can't afford crap"...you can afford. You choose what you want to spend your money on, including this SW habit, so if you want to enroll in Sadaam Academy, there are others on here that sacrifice their lives to give you that right.
Back to public schools...My kids are not in private school because I am protesting public schools. I support the public school system, and my taxes should dang well prove it. Rather, I respect the public system, and acknowledge that non-christians attend and have equal rights, so my beliefs should not be forced upon them. However, in regards to pledging/reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America, or not, because of the word "God" (and yes, it should be capitalized) is anti-American. I refer back to numerous other posts in this thread that use of the word "God" can be individualized to your beliefs....whether that be Jesus Christ, St. Mary, Playstation 3, Budweiser, you get the point.
You nailed it
 
crashbandicoot

crashbandicoot

Active Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2556783

Couldn't agree more. I actually pledged to the American flag tonight, at Boy Scouts. And I am always so proud to look around and see all those boys saluting with respect. What has this world come to?
Regarding schools, I have all 3 of my kids in private school where they not only pledge to the American flag every morning, not only do they pray every morning, but they are hugged and told "I love you" many times a day by their teachers and Principal. I don't bring this up because I'm a "Bible thumper", as I disrespect the analogy and if you knew me, quite the contrary, but rather as a parent and an American that has the right to raise my offspring any way I feel desired. And all of you have the same right. And before you slam me with the "private school...I can't afford crap"...you can afford. You choose what you want to spend your money on, including this SW habit, so if you want to enroll in Sadaam Academy, there are others on here that sacrifice their lives to give you that right.
Back to public schools...My kids are not in private school because I am protesting public schools. I support the public school system, and my taxes should dang well prove it. Rather, I respect the public system, and acknowledge that non-christians attend and have equal rights, so my beliefs should not be forced upon them. However, in regards to pledging/reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America, or not, because of the word "God" (and yes, it should be capitalized) is anti-American. I refer back to numerous other posts in this thread that use of the word "God" can be individualized to your beliefs....whether that be Jesus Christ, St. Mary, Playstation 3, Budweiser, you get the point.

 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2556798
In my class, and I am sure throughout the middle school, they don't have to say it, but they do have to be quiet and stand during the pledge. I understand what you are saying. If you have a problem with government imposed principles, like I said before, don't send your kids to public school. The difference with the situations that you mentioned, throughout history and America today, is that you DO have a choice. Keep your kids in the shelter of your home and teach them any morals that you see fit. Home school your kids. It is as simple as that. If you don't like public school then home school them.
The problem is that at the point where you say that I have to pledge allegiance to ANYTHING or else I am not entitled to an education, then freedom dies.
Just by way of example only (don't get crazy here people, this is only a hypothetical), I do not have to love this country, I do not have to love g-d, and I have every right to think that this country is a piece of crap and Zimba-b-w-e is really the greatest country in the world. If I believed these things then I, or my children, are not entitled to an education. If you think this, then you must abhor the US Constitution.
Being American is not just a product of your location. Freedom can only be truly achieved if we are open to the concept. If you believe in the freedoms guaranteed by our constitution then the majority opinion is really irrelevant. May seem like an outdated notion to most people but this is only because this country's ideals are getting lost by the power of the majority and the distance between the present world and our forefathers (forgive me for a moment of cheesiness).
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556743
I just wanted to quote you because I've never before experienced a person who I disagreed with on pretty much EVERY issue imaginable. You are the bizarro crimzy.

...
Maybe you are the bizzarro 1Journeyman?

Ok, that said, exactly what of my post do you not agree with?
 
ruaround

ruaround

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veeraj87
http:///forum/post/2556334
ahhh to be 33 and have white hair (noticed you changed ur avtar since i last pointed it out)... must suck ... my grandpa uses some dye from target when i find out the brand name ill let you know, also i hear rogain works incase you need it...

some people have more pride than hiding behind dye bought at a discount store... perhaps you should add something to a thread that actually has validity...
 
ruaround

ruaround

Active Member

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556811
The problem is that at the point where you say that I have to pledge allegiance to ANYTHING or else I am not entitled to an education, then freedom dies.
Just by way of example only (don't get crazy here people, this is only a hypothetical), I do not have to love this country, I do not have to love g-d, and I have every right to think that this country is a piece of crap and Zimba-b-w-e is really the greatest country in the world. If I believed these things then I, or my children, are not entitled to an education. If you think this, then you must abhor the US Constitution.
Being American is not just a product of your location. Freedom can only be truly achieved if we are open to the concept. If you believe in the freedoms guaranteed by our constitution then the majority opinion is really irrelevant. May seem like an outdated notion to most people but this is only because this country's ideals are getting lost by the power of the majority and the distance between the present world and our forefathers (forgive me for a moment of cheesiness).
*bolded part... YOU dont have to... you should choose to!!! because this GREAT country gave you that choice!!!
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2556660
Our Nation's very founding is forever tied to religious freedom, as well as a strong Judeo-Christian tradition. From the Ten Commandments, to the founding fathers praying before they wrote the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, to our National Motto.
No amount of lawsuits, shouts of "seperation of church and state" or internet chatter will ever be able to erase our Nation's history.

To answer your question, you prophesize about "religious freedom" but then limit it only the the concepts of Judeo-Christian tradition. Your mention of separation of church and state appears to be more of a punchline then a true value.
If American people believe that we must share the same opinions, loyalties, religious views, etc then we lose our "Americanism".
Constitutional protections only apply to acts of the government. Private citizens/entities are free to compel their views/principles/etc. Why is this the job of the government?
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556811
The problem is that at the point where you say that I have to pledge allegiance to ANYTHING or else I am not entitled to an education, then freedom dies.
Not at all, you have choices, one of them being HOME SCHOOL! You are perfectly free to teach your children yourself.
Just by way of example only (don't get crazy here people, this is only a hypothetical), I do not have to love this country, I do not have to love g-d, and I have every right to think that this country is a piece of crap and Zimba-b-w-e is really the greatest country in the world. If I believed these things then I, or my children, are not entitled to an education. If you think this, then you must abhor the US Constitution.
hmm read what I have written.
Being American is not just a product of your location. Freedom can only be truly achieved if we are open to the concept. If you believe in the freedoms guaranteed by our constitution then the majority opinion is really irrelevant. May seem like an outdated notion to most people but this is only because this country's ideals are getting lost by the power of the majority and the distance between the present world and our forefathers (forgive me for a moment of cheesiness).
Then sand up at your child's PTA meeting and say this to them. I have a feeling that you are passionate about things being discussed on here, but not so much in your own school district. The parents ABSOLUTELY have a say in this.
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by ruaround
http:///forum/post/2556818
*bolded part... YOU dont have to... you should choose to!!! because this GREAT country gave you that choice!!!
Again, I agree with you. I should choose to and I am free to in my home. But to require the pledge does say that I HAVE TO.
You are making my point here. This GREAT COUNTRY does give me the CHOICE. If I am required to say these state-sanctioned words then I lose the choice.
 
crashbandicoot

crashbandicoot

Active Member
Originally Posted by ruaround
http:///forum/post/2556816
some people have more pride than hiding behind dye bought at a discount store... perhaps you should add something to a thread that actually has validity...

Thanks Ru . I am proud of my grey hair I earned every last one of them the hard way . I have experianced things that I hope others never have to . You know me well enough to know I am not ashamed of it .
It just shows a lack of class when you have to resort to personal attacks on a persons natural apperance to prove your on the moral high ground .
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556823
Again, I agree with you. I should choose to and I am free to in my home. But to require the pledge does say that I HAVE TO.
You are making my point here. This GREAT COUNTRY does give me the CHOICE. If I am required to say these state-sanctioned words then I lose the choice.

Crimzy, What kind of law do you practice?
 
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