The Pledge of Allegiance in schools

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556820
To answer your question, you prophesize about "religious freedom" but then limit it only the the concepts of Judeo-Christian tradition. Your mention of separation of church and state appears to be more of a punchline then a true value.
If American people believe that we must share the same opinions, loyalties, religious views, etc then we lose our "Americanism".
Constitutional protections only apply to acts of the government. Private citizens/entities are free to compel their views/principles/etc. Why is this the job of the government?
I specifically drew a distinction between our Constitution allowing Religious freedom and our Judeo-Christian traditions. Both statements are historically correct. Had we been founded by Muslims or Hindus then I would say such.
The seperation of church and state is a concept that never once occurs in the Constitution.
There are many things that remain true whether or not people choose to believe them. Our Nation's history is one of those things. What our Constitution states is another.
Not sure what you are arguing in your last point so I can't address it.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556768
But, even if I disagreed with the words in the pledge and the concept of an almighty g-d then, as an American, I shouldn't be compelled to recite these words.
I'm just curious as to why you replaced the "o" with "-" in the word God. I know why Jews do it, but why you?
ps...I know you are not Jewish.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2556822
Then sand up at your child's PTA meeting and say this to them. I have a feeling that you are passionate about things being discussed on here, but not so much in your own school district. The parents ABSOLUTELY have a say in this.
Unfortunately, my kids are too young for school. And, when they do go to school, I will not have a vehement objection to the pledge. As I stated before, I don't think it's necessarily harmful.
However, this is a debate... and for every person who believes that the pledge is right because (1) we did it when we were kids, or (2) the majority agrees with the words being required, I think that these people are wrong. Most of the people here are saying, "Who are they to be saying that they don't want to say the pledge!". To that, I just reply, who are you to be judging whether someone else has an issue with the pledge. Live and let live. Patriotism is wonderful. Why does it have to be commingled with education.
No one has even attempted to answer the simple question (because there's no good answer to it): Why can't your kids be required to say the pledge before/after they go to school? What does the pledge of allegiance have to do with reading, writing and arithmetic?

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2556829
I'm just curious as to why you replaced the "o" with "-" in the word God. I know why Jews do it, but why you?
ps...I know you are not Jewish.
What makes you say this?

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556837
What makes you say this?
Curiosity.
or did you mean the part about not being Jewish?

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2556827
Crimzy, What kind of law do you practice?
Well, my background (as you may see from my username) was in criminal law. I am now with a firm and I handle all of the civil litigation and construction litigation. We don't have a ton of constitutional issues in my current field.

 

[reefraff]

My take on it is I've never heard of any kid being forced to say the pledge or saying under god it they did do the pledge.
Instead of having the kids say the pledge they should pipe in Red Skelton's version once a week. Gives it some meaning.
If you've never heard it youtube has it posted by a few people.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2556838
or did you mean the part about not being Jewish?
That's it. It just so happens that I am Jewish. I'm not all that religious, but as you pointed out, Jewish people do not spell out the word g-d... not even in the bible, Torah, Talmud or other religious writings.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556851
That's it. It just so happens that I am Jewish. I'm not all that religious, but as you pointed out, Jewish people do not spell out the word g-d... not even in the bible, Torah, Talmud or other religious writings.
totally off-topic
I thought they would write down "God" as in Elohim but not "Lord God" as in "Yahweh" ?
So I've learned something today.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2556855
totally off-topic
I thought they would write down "God" as in Elohim but not "Lord God" as in "Yahweh" ?
So I've learned something today.
I may be wrong about this... haven't been to hebrew school in about 20 years but...
Phrenetically speaking, the hebrew word for g-d (besides the word you used which is supposedly the holy name of g-d) is pronounced a-don-oy. However it's spelled with hebrew letters that, if sounded out, would sound something like y-i-h-y. It's basically two "Y" sounding letters with a vowel between them.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556841
Well, my background (as you may see from my username) was in criminal law. I am now with a firm and I handle all of the civil litigation and construction litigation. We don't have a ton of constitutional issues in my current field.
Well I can see that you still like to argue and twist information. I was heading for Pre-law before opening my store. In this situation, you can look at it from any angel that you would like. You, nor Americans, are forced to do anything. They have choices. They do not have to send their children to public school, and if they do have to then they can have an active part in what is taught to them.
No one has even attempted to answer the simple question (because there's no good answer to it): Why can't your kids be required to say the pledge before/after they go to school? What does the pledge of allegiance have to do with reading, writing and arithmetic?
I am not sure that you are getting this. The pledge is announced over the loud speaker before classes begin. It isn't as though they have to pledge before every class. It is done during homeroom before lessons start.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556864
I may be wrong about this... haven't been to hebrew school in about 20 years but...
Phrenetically speaking, the hebrew word for g-d (besides the word you used which is supposedly the holy name of g-d) is pronounced a-don-oy. However it's spelled with hebrew letters that, if sounded out, would sound something like y-i-h-y. It's basically two "Y" sounding letters with a vowel between them.
Ya. I'll do some reading up on it. Not sure why, but like I said I just always assumed that the "Holy name" of God was the only name that couldn't be fully written out.
Now, back on topic;
You're totally wrong Crimzy!

 

[darthtang aw]

I have been avoiding this one...strangely enough but I have to ask one question. Ok if you don't believe in a god a feel their is no god how is stating the line "one nation under god" going to harm you since their is no god in your eyes anyway.
If you don't believe in god then it is just a sentence and holds no true meaning for you and is therfore inoffensive as there is no god. how can a person be offended by something they don't believe exists.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556851
That's it. It just so happens that I am Jewish. I'm not all that religious, but as you pointed out, Jewish people do not spell out the word g-d... not even in the bible, Torah, Talmud or other religious writings.
In that case I stand corrected, and beg your pardon. Some of the other threads that have had a religious tone have given me a false impression. I have great respect for God's chosen people, and will forever see you in a different light.
The reason it is not spelled out, as I'm sure you know, (this is for the benefit of others), is that it could be construed as idolatry. I, on the other hand, am a Gentile and believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Tanakh and live under the new covenant He established.
I believe that everything happens for a reason and that the word "GOD" was put in the pledge and on our money for a reason, if only to be debated here and cause people to assess their own lives thus leading them to investigate God for themselves. Whether it stays in the pledge or not, it has served a higher purpose and seen benefit from the debates.
I will continue to support the Pledge of Allegiance and your right to dispute it.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2556876
I have been avoiding this one...strangely enough but I have to ask one question. Ok if you don't believe in a god a feel their is no god how is stating the line "one nation under god" going to harm you since their is no god in your eyes anyway.
If you don't believe in god then it is just a sentence and holds no true meaning for you and is therfore inoffensive as there is no god. how can a person be offended by something they don't believe exists.
Well the answer is that the concept of "state-sponsored" religion is inherently unconstitutional. As Journey points out, the separation of church and state is not a part of the constitution, but it has been consistently protected by the legislature and the Supreme Court.
If we are to separate church and state then the issue is not whether someone is offended by the words. The issue is really whether the government is aligning itself with a religious view. And in this case, even if you view the term g-d as subjective, then this is a government sponsored religious view. Many people may not believe in one almighty being as the higher power.
On this note, I am going to depart. Must get up early in the morning and go to court to protect some poor business' rights... or maybe violate my opponent's rights. I always forget which...

 

[sepulatian]

On this note, I am going to depart. Must get up early in the morning and go to court to protect some poor business' rights... or maybe violate my opponent's rights. I always forget which...
I am guessing the latter.
This post is getting very twisted. Stick to the subject people. This isn't about the separation of church and state.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2556888
This isn't about the separation of church and state.
Do you have data to support this statement? I thought the church/state issue was the reason for removing it from public schools.
California recently made it illegal to homeschool (it has since been vacated to be heard again) and we MUST (as now required by law) portray gays and lesbians in a positive manner. PHOOEY!!!!
http://origin.mercurynews.com/education/ci_8477915
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59033

 

[pblrdom]

I find this topic a bit touching and a bit disturbing at the same time. I hope i don't write a novel here but I'm in tears reading to the post reply button at the bottom of this page. I pray that i don't upset anyone.

Let me tell you all a little bit about myself and it might help you understand why....
I am 22 years old and became a legal citizen of The United States of America 4 years ago. I like every other immigrant to this country had to pass through immigration procedures and wait in line to recite the pledge of allegiance to a man behind a desk. That was the best ******* day of my life!
Before moving to the US I studied American history for years in school. As a kid I grew up wanting to be an American History Teacher. So taking a 100 question test on why this country is so great was insightful and uplifting!
No, i didn't recite The Pledge of Allegiance every day in school. However I am a college student in this country now, and every day when i walk onto campus and look at that flag you bet your ass i remember every line, and what it means.
I am not going to play on the religious aspect of the "GOD" question because i believe that every individual has the right to believe in whatever "GOD" they want.
That set aside President Eisenhower added the, "Under God" portion to the pledge in 1954. It has been recited the same way since congress legally changed the pledge. The "GOD" factor holds much more significance to me that just a religious belief. Like i said i am not condoning the religious perspective of a specific "GOD" rather giving my opinion that if NO "GOD" was present when that original notation was written none of us would be here discussing this topic in the manner we are.
Again I hope i didnt offend any 1.
Sorry about the rant.
Ive very proud of my Green Card!

 

[veeraj87]

Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2556825
Thanks Ru . I am proud of my grey hair I earned every last one of them the hard way . I have experianced things that I hope others never have to . You know me well enough to know I am not ashamed of it .

It just shows a lack of class when you have to resort to personal attacks on a persons natural apperance to prove your on the moral high ground .

just wanted to say sorry man... i know i was wrong

 

[crashbandicoot]

its all water under the bridge . Lets just keep the threads on the topic they are started on

no need to hash up old fights .