The Pledge of Allegiance in schools

ruaround

ruaround

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556823
Again, I agree with you. I should choose to and I am free to in my home. But to require the pledge does say that I HAVE TO.
You are making my point here. This GREAT COUNTRY does give me the CHOICE. If I am required to say these state-sanctioned words then I lose the choice.

again... you DONT HAVE TO... one should choose to because it is unification!!! one team that agrees to disagree and stand up for their beliefs because of the people that faught for what your are arguing were unified to protect YOUR beliefs!!!
it really is simple... standing up for the USA and pledging is standing up for you!!! it may be something that you call silly and uncalled for but its HUGE when we all do it!! no matter what party/religion/creed you stand for...
 
m0nk

m0nk

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2556660
More importantly, why are they threatened by 30 seconds of silence?

Our Nation's very founding is forever tied to religious freedom, as well as a strong Judeo-Christian tradition. From the Ten Commandments, to the founding fathers praying before they wrote the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, to our National Motto.
No amount of lawsuits, shouts of "seperation of church and state" or internet chatter will ever be able to erase our Nation's history.
Personally, I really like the moment of silence idea more than anything since it would give people a chance to meditate, that being a part of my religion. But, it's because of the religious freedom that we can't/shouldn't force one particular religious view into a state run institution. It would undo that freedom.
 
hydrodamoper

hydrodamoper

Member
WOW....
I had no intention of starting a church vs state debate. I was just wondering who all lived in areas that had schools still saying the pledge. I actually do not care one way or the other who says "under god" when saying the pledge.
I was taking my son to school last week and asked him if he would be late for the morning announcements and jokingly said something about saying the pledge while waiting in the line and he said "the what?" I guess I grew up in a small town school (western NY) where it was just a common thing to say the pledge in the morning before school.
I wonder what the response to the same question would have been back in the late 70's and early 80's when I attended school
.
 
rudedog40

rudedog40

Member
There was a big debate here in Texas several years ago when it came to requiring all school children to stand and state the Pledge every morning before classes started. A child who was a Jehovahs Witness not only refused to say the word God in the Pledge, he also refused to stand during the Pledge. I think the school tried to expel the student for not following the mandated school guidelines, and the parents sued the school district and won. The schools now have to let any child who objects to standing and reciting the Pledge based on their religious beliefs, to remain seated during the Pledge.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556882
Well the answer is that the concept of "state-sponsored" religion is inherently unconstitutional. As Journey points out, the separation of church and state is not a part of the constitution, but it has been consistently protected by the legislature and the Supreme Court.
If we are to separate church and state then the issue is not whether someone is offended by the words. The issue is really whether the government is aligning itself with a religious view. And in this case, even if you view the term g-d as subjective, then this is a government sponsored religious view. Many people may not believe in one almighty being as the higher power.
On this note, I am going to depart. Must get up early in the morning and go to court to protect some poor business' rights... or maybe violate my opponent's rights. I always forget which...

I agree with you to a point, but where you lose me is the state sponsored religion. By using the word god which religion is the state sponsoring?
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2557259
I agree with you to a point, but where you lose me is the state sponsored religion. By using the word god which religion is the state sponsoring?
Any religions that believe in a single, almighty higher power.
 
masta man

masta man

Member
I think that the only people that should say the pledge are the people that are going to live by it. It shouldn't just be said by everyone when no one follows it.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2556882
Well the answer is that the concept of "state-sponsored" religion is inherently unconstitutional. ...
Acknowledging the "Creator" by saying "God" is in no way Unconstitutional.
Now, banning acknowledment of God, banning prayer in schools, etc. is Unconstitutional.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2557386
Acknowledging the "Creator" by saying "God" is in no way Unconstitutional.
Now, banning acknowledment of God, banning prayer in schools, etc. is Unconstitutional.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
This is a valid interpretation... an interesting argument. However the US Appellate and Supreme Courts, as well as most state Supreme and Appellate Courts have come out the other way in their constitutional interpretation.
I didn't write the law and I didn't decide the cases. We can argue about our opinions here but your legal conclusions are factually inaccurate based on the existing law. Maybe you should frame your argument as XYZ should be constitutional/unconstitutional.
 
wangotango

wangotango

Active Member
So Crimzy, do you not support the pledge because the word God is included, or that people are "forced" to stand and recite it?
Honestly I believe that you should at least stand up when it is read. It's a sign of respect for the country, nothing more. If you don't want to say "under God" don't. I highly doubt that a teacher or administrator will come over to the student and give them hell for it. If they did then they'd be out of line.
"In God we trust" is all over our money. With how often money is passed around I'd think that that'd be more of an issue, rather than the pledge which takes up 30 seconds of time in a public school. It really isn't that big of a deal.
-Justin
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by WangoTango
http:///forum/post/2557507
So Crimzy, do you not support the pledge because the word God is included, or that people are "forced" to stand and recite it?
Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't support the pledge. I just wonder, as I've stated repeatedly in this thread, whether it's the school's obligation to make our kids patriotic and/or g-d fearing individuals.
For discussion purposes only, I think that there are conceivable problems with both aspects of the pledge. I think that parents have the job of teaching certain values to their children and not the schools.
Again, take the discussion in perspective. In the real world, the pledge is at worst, harmless, or at best, a very unifying and special moment. The problem arises, though because the law has to draw a clear, concise, unambiguous line when it comes to imposing values/religion on people. For instance, can a school require patriotism to the level of propaganda, or to prevent a student from exercising his/her free speech? Should a school be able to require students to kneel for a pledge/prayer? Could a school require students to attend "religious counselling" in order to discover g-d?
The above decisions cannot be made on a case-by-case basis. The constitution cannot be applied in a selective manner. Doing so risks the integrity of the rights that distinguishes Americans from everyone else.
 
crashbandicoot

crashbandicoot

Active Member
I have to disagree with you crimzy . It is EVERYBODY's responsability to instal morals in our future generations as far as pride as a nation . We all need to step up to the plate and be rolemodels for the youth .
 
scopus tang

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2557662
Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't support the pledge. I just wonder, as I've stated repeatedly in this thread, whether it's the school's obligation to make our kids patriotic and/or g-d fearing individuals.
For discussion purposes only, I think that there are conceivable problems with both aspects of the pledge. I think that parents have the job of teaching certain values to their children and not the schools.
Again, take the discussion in perspective. In the real world, the pledge is at worst, harmless, or at best, a very unifying and special moment. The problem arises, though because the law has to draw a clear, concise, unambiguous line when it comes to imposing values/religion on people. For instance, can a school require patriotism to the level of propaganda, or to prevent a student from exercising his/her free speech? Should a school be able to require students to kneel for a pledge/prayer? Could a school require students to attend "religious counselling" in order to discover g-d?
The above decisions cannot be made on a case-by-case basis. The constitution cannot be applied in a selective manner. Doing so risks the integrity of the rights that distinguishes Americans from everyone else.
Its an interesting argument, but why does your desire to have the right to freely chose not to participate override my right to freely chose to participate. If we ban the pledge from schools, then you are treading on my right to chose to participate. As for requiring a student to kneel or pray, perhaps not, but by the same token do they have the right to tell students that they cannot pray? I understand your freedom of choice not to participate, but I also have the freedom of choice to participate.
 
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