There is no such thing as good versus evil

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
I guess I should have changed God to Mohammed. Does that make it more clear??
That was my answer to the original post about good and evil. Reread the original post and my response might make more sense.
You should change the Bible to the Koran... but I'm not sure about this... I've been told but never read this...something about spreading Islam through the sword... I would have to read myself to be clear though.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
Have you read The Bible??? The new testament is all about Jesus, written by the folks who were there with him while he was on the earth.
Or are you of a sort who does not believe in the New Testament?? Hmmmm. I wonder??
What is to believe? It's a story and a guide that some people use to live by.
I ask you this; if they were with him then why not write it then? Why wait 30-60 years after the fact? I'm sorry, it does not add up and wouldn't it have been rather convenient to create a character like Jesus to help spread the word of a religion? To get away from the Old Testament and the vengeful god and turn to a kind one, that would help convert more people wouldn't it?
Say what you want, you have no solid proof or evidence. Based on your line of thought, he is no more real then Hercules or any of the other Greek hero's.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
Why don't you start your own search? You should do more than just sit back and wait for us to bring you evidence... I encourage for you to start your own research... and whatever you do, don't just believe what someone says.
I've heard of many stories of atheist or non-christians who have sought out to disprove the very thing we are talking about and have came up with evidence that supports the vary thing they deny- and they then covert or believe.

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
You should change the Bible to the Koran... but I'm not sure about this... I've been told but never read this...something about spreading Islam through the sword... I would have to read myself to be clear though.
I have read it, albeit a long time ago, and that is what I got from it. Of course, it's all in how one carries out what they believe to be right in their religious book of choice. That's where fundamentalism comes in to play.
Some folks bomb abortion clinics, and then some others bomb grocery stores, school busses, discos, voting lines, mosques, etc. etc. etc....

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Jmick
What is to believe? It's a story and a guide that some people use to live by.
I ask you this; if they were with him then why not write it then? Why wait 30-60 years after the fact? I'm sorry, it does not add up and wouldn't it have been rather convenient to create a character like Jesus to help spread the word of a religion? To get away from the Old Testament and the vengeful god and turn to a kind one, that would help convert more people wouldn't it?
Say what you want, you have no solid proof or evidence. Based on your line of thought, he is no more real then Hercules or any of the other Greek hero's.
there would be no new religion if not for Jesus, God has always been kind. But who's to say they did not write things down prior and that what we have today is a final draft based on numerous other writing they had? There are different conclusions that you can come up with.

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by Jmick
What is to believe? It's a story and a guide that some people use to live by.
I ask you this; if they were with him then why not write it then? Why wait 30-60 years after the fact? I'm sorry, it does not add up and wouldn't it have been rather convenient to create a character like Jesus to help spread the word of a religion? To get away from the Old Testament and the vengeful god and turn to a kind one, that would help convert more people wouldn't it?
Say what you want, you have no solid proof or evidence. Based on your line of thought, he is no more real then Hercules or any of the other Greek hero's.

So go out and start up a religion based on Hercules then.
The Holy Order of the Big Buff Guy.....HOBBG..... Good luck with that.

 

[clown boy]

What's the difference between someone who believes that George Washington is real and someone who believes that Jesus is real? "Well," you'll probably say, "we have the writings of people who knew Washington." Well, it just so happens that we have the writings of the people who knew Jesus... and they are all compiled into one book, for our convenience.
The Bible is a composition of the books written by people who knew Jesus. If someone compiled the writings of those who knew Washington into one book, to say that it is not true would be as ridiculous as saying that the Bible is not true.

 

[clown boy]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
So go out and start up a religion based on Hercules then.
The Holy Order of the Big Buff Guy.....HOBBG..... Good luck with that.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
I have read it, albeit a long time ago, and that is what I got from it. Of course, it's all in how one carries out what they believe to be right in their religious book of choice. That's where fundamentalism comes in to play.
Some folks bomb abortion clinics, and then some others bomb grocery stores, school busses, discos, voting lines, mosques, etc. etc. etc....
these people are using their religious believes to push their political agendas-- this is not of God and I would say this is not what there religion teaches

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
these people are using their religious believes to push their political agendas-- this is not of God and I would say this is not what there religion teaches
Exactly my point. Fundamentalists.

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
What's the difference between someone who believes that George Washington is real and someone who believes that Jesus is real? "Well," you'll probably say, "we have the writings of people who knew Washington." Well, it just so happens that we have the writings of the people who knew Jesus... and they are all compiled into one book, for our convenience.
The Bible is a composition of the books written by people who knew Jesus. If someone compiled the writings of those who knew Washington into one book, to say that it is not true would be as ridiculous as saying that the Bible is not true.
i thought about that but wanted to use an example that took place during ancient times such as Alexander the Great or someone like that...

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
What's the difference between someone who believes that George Washington is real and someone who believes that Jesus is real? "Well," you'll probably say, "we have the writings of people who knew Washington." Well, it just so happens that we have the writings of the people who knew Jesus... and they are all compiled into one book, for our convenience.
The Bible is a composition of the books written by people who knew Jesus. If someone compiled the writings of those who knew Washington into one book, to say that it is not true would be as ridiculous as saying that the Bible is not true.

That is a fairly poor comparison. There are portraits of Washington, homes he lived in, clothes he wore, he lead our nation against England, there are coins with his face and many contempory writings of battles he lead, speaches he made and so forth. There are none of these things that were recorded when Jesus lived...apples and oranges my friend.
Now, if you had said Alexander the Great, what you are trying to say may have carried more weight.
Again, it boils down to why weren't these things recorded when Jesus lived. Why weren't his words written down when they were said, his miracles recorded and dated, personal conversations? Why wait to cronical it all into a few writings when the info should have come from thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people? Don't you think there would be other writings?

 

[clown boy]

Alright, I say Alexander the Great. Is that better?

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
So go out and start up a religion based on Hercules then.
The Holy Order of the Big Buff Guy.....HOBBG..... Good luck with that.

I like how you dodge questions to answers you can not provide.

 

[clown boy]

Careful Jmick... careful... we want to keep this discussion friendly...

 

[clown boy]

Did you know that there are about 55,000 Greek manuscripts alone of complete or fragments of the New Testament? And ALL of them completely agree! The New Testament is no legend...

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
Did you know that there are about 55,000 Greek manuscripts alone of complete or fragments of the New Testament? And ALL of them completely agree! The New Testament is no legend...
I think no matter what proof we present..it's not in a blog and Jmick won't accept it.
Surely I'll get deleted or flamed or banned but I need to know something and I mean no disrespect.
Jmick, does that name stand for Jewish/Irish in some weird way?? Just curious.

 

[integral9]

I'm no bible thumper or atheist or any other kind of extremist. But I did go church school growing up and did take countless religion classes. So I do know a lot about the history of Christianity.

The bible is a collection of stories and letters. Most of which were verbally handed down generation after generation by the light of a camp fire (The Old Testament). So yes there are embellishments and other things to make it more exciting. And it is pretty exciting for a 4000 year old story I have to admit. Except that whole book Leviticus. I could really do w/out that one. (zzzzzzzzz)
The New Testament is mostly letters written by Paul and the other Desciples to the kings and lords of the land trying to get the politicians to recognize Christianity as a religion and also as an effort to get out of jail. I believe all of which were written after Jesus' death. After Jesus died Christianity was what we would consider a cult and Christians were persecuted like proverbial "red headed step children". The first Christian symbol was a fish so they could hide the entrances to their places of worship (which were usually in dark basements or cellers) in plain site, like market places.
Jesus was crucified for being proclaimed by the Jews as their King. Which pissed off Pontious Pilot (who really was their king) and who saw it as a rebellion and quelled it in the Roman manner; with execution. His motives were purely political. He didn't care about the religious differences among the Jewish people, he was still worshiping the Roman gods and Jesus and the Jews were an issue he wanted to leave to the Jewish counsil {can't remember what they were called} but his hand was forced.
The version of the Bible that most people see today dates back to the Council of Nicea (that's were the Nicene Creed comes from, but some of you say the Apostles Creed on Sunday). The Council of Nicea didn't convene until like 500AD, well after the death of Jesus. Their job was to consolidate and standardize the Christian Bible, which was important as the religion was begining to fragment. What sucks imo. is that the council didn't just combine all the books together into one anthology, but they also threw books out. Some of which might have been relevent. I dont' know, haven't read any of them.
But anyways. What's important about the bible is the lessons which can be summed (mostly) up with a quote from "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" .
"Be excellent to each other."

 

[1journeyman]

Jmick, you're asking for "standards" not normally associated with the study of historical figures.
For instance, go to any Freshman level Lit class and you'll read Homer's writings. No one argues that Homer existed or that he wrote the Iliad. Yet, can you show any proof of his existence dating to his lifetime?
I understand denying what the Bible says is true. I cannot, however, understand arguing that Jesus did not exist. A careful study of archeology, history, religion, etc. shows that something happened in the middle of the first century. Christianity went from inception to the most dominant religion in about 300 years; under sometimes brutal persecution.
The Pauline letters, for instance, were written in the lifetimes of eyewitnesses. Yet church history shows that his writings were accepted. Why is that?
I could understand denying the existence of a man named "Jesus" if a religion sprung up to worship him 200 years after he died. That's not the historical case, however. Christianity "appears" on the scene immediately.
you discount Roman historians for writing in the later part of the first century. Consider, however, that their audience undoubtedly contained eyewitnesses, even if they themselves were not.
You ask for eyewitness writings; let me ask for eyewitness denials? How about eyewitness debates? Why is it, do you think, that a religion was able to grow up under persecution without being shot down by eyewitnesses?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Integral9
...The bible is a collection of stories and letters. Most of which were verbally handed down generation after generation by the light of a camp fire (The Old Testament). ...
I've heard this point discussed, but it fails to account for the seriousness the Jews took into account when discussing their early history. The Dead Sea scrolls showed exactly how precisely the writings over a thousand years were preserved.
The Council of Nicea met in 325 Ad. It originally was called to address false teachings that were beginning to crop up across the known world.
The actual selection of the Books of the Bible took place through the first few centuries of the Church.