This Can't Be-California Democratics Banned It

[oscardeuce]

The standard military side arm round used to be 38. Then we had a hard time knocking down druged up bad guys in the Phillipines. We switched to .45 acp with much more stopping power. Getting hit with a 45 with a vest is in some ways worse than a shot that goes through and through. In a through and through shot less energy is imparted to the target, but more tissue damage is done. The vest stops the bullet cold, all of the energy is imparted to the target, and the vest spreads the energy over a larger area. Underlying bones can be shattered, there is a potential for cardiac dysrythmias. In general the shot will most likey cause the bad guy to be incapacitated for a few milliseconds. That may be all you need for a follow up shot. The SWAT team i trained with did practice the 2to the chest 1to the head mantra.
Either way the shot will buy you one of 3 options:
1) follow up shot
2) reposition/find cover
3) run away.
All are the right answer

 

[ironeagle2006]

DId a little target Shooting with my BIL a couple weeks ago he has a few Autoloaders a 380 a 9MM Beretta and a 45. We decided to see who could do the fasted Aimed 3 round shot 2 in the Chest 3 in the Head with Each weapon. He won with the 380 I beat him with the 9mm and the 45 my Fastest time measured at his Gun Clubs range on the target is .92 seconds for all 3 shots out the barrel from the 9mm his are optimized for Fast shooting. All 3 of my shots were center of the target and I had Never fired his guns before at all.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it#post_3426601
I am glad, even though I can only read the quoted replies, that the conversation has turned this direction. Bionic is not posting outrageous ultra-left rhetoric. He is presenting the gun control side well. And it couldn't be more obvious that gun controllers want unarmed victims. Their biggest fear is not the criminals who have, and will always have guns. It is law abiding citizens having guns to defend against the criminals. If I were in that salon and a madman came in shooting, would I rather sit and wait for my turn to die or would I rather have at least the slimmest chance to go home to my family? The left says wait your turn to die and let the cops clean up afterwards. That makes no sense to me in any way.
I'm all for someone owning and carrying a gun for protection, IF they are properly trained to do so. The problem is, you get these guys who are only in it for the money, teaching these concealed weapons courses like an impromptued crash course. So you have hundreds of people walking around with this false sense of security thinking all they have to do is pull a gun out when threatened, and the assailant will just run away or cower in fear. All of a sudden, they're faced with some nutjob who has his own gun, and they freak and start pulling the trigger, not even sure where they're aiming. You can't learn proper usage of a deadly weapon in 3 or 4 hours. You can't understand the concept of actually pointing a gun at a living, breathing person by emptying a couple of boxes of ammo at a gun range. You want to carry a loaded gun with you at all times? Get properly trained. We require anyone wanting to drive to have a certain amount of hours behind the wheel before they can apply for a drivers license, but someone can go hand an 'instructor' a couple hundred bucks, listen to some lecture for a few hours, and they walk out with the ability to carry a dealy weapon anywhere that's legally allowed. Sorry, but's that wasn't the intent of the 2nd Amendment.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3426731
I'm all for someone owning and carrying a gun for protection, IF they are properly trained to do so. The problem is, you get these guys who are only in it for the money, teaching these concealed weapons courses like an impromptued crash course. So you have hundreds of people walking around with this false sense of security thinking all they have to do is pull a gun out when threatened, and the assailant will just run away or cower in fear. All of a sudden, they're faced with some nutjob who has his own gun, and they freak and start pulling the trigger, not even sure where they're aiming. You can't learn proper usage of a deadly weapon in 3 or 4 hours. You can't understand the concept of actually pointing a gun at a living, breathing person by emptying a couple of boxes of ammo at a gun range. You want to carry a loaded gun with you at all times? Get properly trained. We require anyone wanting to drive to have a certain amount of hours behind the wheel before they can apply for a drivers license, but someone can go hand an 'instructor' a couple hundred bucks, listen to some lecture for a few hours, and they walk out with the ability to carry a dealy weapon anywhere that's legally allowed. Sorry, but's that wasn't the intent of the 2nd Amendment.
You know anyone who does the training? I've known two and they each have forgotten more about proper firearms use than you or I ever knew. Not just any goober can be certified to teach that course.

 

[oscardeuce]

 
You know anyone who does the training? I've known two and they each have forgotten more about proper firearms use than you or I ever knew. Not just any goober can be certified to teach that course.
 
My dad taught these courses. 40+ years of law enforcement. From Ohio State Trooper to local police. Not a "goober". They don not let goobers become Troopers.
I learned from him.
I carry and pray i never pull my gun.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3426799
You know anyone who does the training? I've known two and they each have forgotten more about proper firearms use than you or I ever knew. Not just any goober can be certified to teach that course.
I worked with a guy back in '94 that taught the Texas concealed weapons course (think that was around the time the law passed here). He was teaching 2 - 3 classes per week. He worked in IT most of his career, and was never in law enforcement or the military. I never asked what his experience was with firearms, and how he got qualified to teach the course, but if it was indicative to his character and work ethics, the people he trained probably left the course clueless about proper handling of firearms. Needless to say, none of his co-workers ever asked to take the course from him.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3426849
I worked with a guy back in '94 that taught the Texas concealed weapons course (think that was around the time the law passed here). He was teaching 2 - 3 classes per week. He worked in IT most of his career, and was never in law enforcement or the military. I never asked what his experience was with firearms, and how he got qualified to teach the course, but if it was indicative to his character and work ethics, the people he trained probably left the course clueless about proper handling of firearms. Needless to say, none of his co-workers ever asked to take the course from him.
You don't have to be military or LEO but it helps. There is a list of requirements to qualify as a Texas CCW instructor that is pretty detailed
QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) The
director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:
TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS GC §411.190. 17
(1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer
Standards and Education or under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code,
to instruct others in the use of handguns;
(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has
graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally
accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or
(3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a
handgun instructor.
(b) In addition to the qualifications described by Subsection (a), a
qualified handgun instructor must be qualified to instruct persons in:
(1) the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of deadly force;
(2) handgun use, proficiency, and safety;
(3) nonviolent dispute resolution; and
(4) proper storage practices for handguns, including storage
practices that eliminate the possibility of accidental injury to a child.

 

[stdreb27]

lol, what?

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3426940
You don't have to be military or LEO but it helps. There is a list of requirements to qualify as a Texas CCW instructor that is pretty detailed
QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) Thedirector may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS GC §411.190. 17(1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement OfficerStandards and Education or under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code,to instruct others in the use of handguns;(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and hasgraduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationallyaccepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or(3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as ahandgun instructor.(b) In addition to the qualifications described by Subsection (a), aqualified handgun instructor must be qualified to instruct persons in1) the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of deadly force;(2) handgun use, proficiency, and safety;(3) nonviolent dispute resolution; and(4) proper storage practices for handguns, including storagepractices that eliminate the possibility of accidental injury to a child.
Well, he was a NRA card holder. Used to where his hat and shirts all the time when we went out to bars after work for drinks.
Like I said, proper training. Reading a script out of a few pages of documents written by other gun toters is nothing like real-life experience. Kinda reminds me of those defensive driving courses you take to get out of a speeding ticket.

 

[reefraff]

So what your saying is all our universities that are full of educators with no real world experience are a waste of time and money too?

 

[yerboy]

yup, you can get the same education from the public library for about $3.00 in late fees. What the scripted guys give you is a fancy paper to hang on the wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3427048
So what your saying is all our universities that are full of educators with no real world experience are a waste of time and money too?

 

[mantisman51]

I have handled firearms since I was a very small child. I've never accidentally or purposely shot anyone. I have more than one firearm and I have purchased all of them from gun stores so I know none of them have been used in a crime-yet for all the 25-30 firearms I have owned in my life, not one has caused any injury or death. So that right there is proof that training has little to do with the ability to carry a firearm. It is common sense and that can't be taught. Statistics show that firearm training does little to help or hurt one's ability to carry a firearm. That is why my state has ended the requirement to have a permit to carry any way we want to. The one stipulation being if approached by a law enforcement officer, we must announce that we are carrying.

 

[morgan175]

TRY LIVING IN MARYLAND THEY HAVE THE WORST GUN LAWS. THE ONLY ONES THAT CARRY GUNS ARE THE LOCAL GANGS AND THE COPS IT IS VERY HARD TO GET A CARRY PERMIT. THEN THEY HAVE LAWS OF WHICH GUNS YOU CAN OWN.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3427080
I have handled firearms since I was a very small child. I've never accidentally or purposely shot anyone. I have more than one firearm and I have purchased all of them from gun stores so I know none of them have been used in a crime-yet for all the 25-30 firearms I have owned in my life, not one has caused any injury or death. So that right there is proof that training has little to do with the ability to carry a firearm. It is common sense and that can't be taught. Statistics show that firearm training does little to help or hurt one's ability to carry a firearm. That is why my state has ended the requirement to have a permit to carry any way we want to. The one stipulation being if approached by a law enforcement officer, we must announce that we are carrying.
You make it sound so simple. How about the 20 year old kid whose never held a gun in his life, and decides to run down to the local Academy on his 21st birthday to buy that 9mm "just because he can". Buys a couple boxes of ammo, heads to the gun range, gets someone to show him how to load and shoot it, and you have another innocent gun toter walking amongst you. If I were a cop in Arizona, I'd be VERY afraid.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3427129
You make it sound so simple. How about the 20 year old kid whose never held a gun in his life, and decides to run down to the local Academy on his 21st birthday to buy that 9mm "just because he can". Buys a couple boxes of ammo, heads to the gun range, gets someone to show him how to load and shoot it, and you have another innocent gun toter walking amongst you. If I were a cop in Arizona, I'd be VERY afraid.
I know and have known a lot of cops in my day from Arizona to Wyoming. NONE of them were nervous about the idea of the guns they can see. It's the hidden ones that worry them.

 

[stdreb27]

lol, I wish I'd had 600 bucks for a gun when I was 21

 

[mantisman51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3427158
I know and have known a lot of cops in my day from Arizona to Wyoming. NONE of them were nervous about the idea of the guns they can see. It's the hidden ones that worry them.
Well, it's been a year and concealed weapons haven't been a problem. A cop that would worry about the guns they "can't see" because law abiding citizens are allowed to acrry concealed, probably should be a cop because the bad guys already have them hidden and are already carrying them. The bad guys who would hide a gun to use on a cop aren't worried if the law says it's legal to carry concealed or not. Not one more weapon that is potentially dangerous to an officer is out on the streets because of this law. Those with the will to use a gun on a cop are already carrying concealed. I have 2 sisters and 1 bro-in-law who are cops in California and they agree. So, all this hand-wringing about people who are not criminals having guns is nothing more than the propaganda of anti-gunners. And for anyone in law enforcement to fall for it and be lulled into a false sense of security in states where it's illegal, reflects poorly on those officers.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/388457/this-cant-be-california-democratics-banned-it/20#post_3427224
Well, it's been a year and concealed weapons haven't been a problem. A cop that would worry about the guns they "can't see" because law abiding citizens are allowed to acrry concealed, probably should be a cop because the bad guys already have them hidden and are already carrying them. The bad guys who would hide a gun to use on a cop aren't worried if the law says it's legal to carry concealed or not. Not one more weapon that is potentially dangerous to an officer is out on the streets because of this law. Those with the will to use a gun on a cop are already carrying concealed. I have 2 sisters and 1 bro-in-law who are cops in California and they agree. So, all this hand-wringing about people who are not criminals having guns is nothing more than the propaganda of anti-gunners. And for anyone in law enforcement to fall for it and be lulled into a false sense of security in states where it's illegal, reflects poorly on those officers.
Since the advent of concealed carry none of the one's I still knew objected to that. I am talking about driving in a car with a gun rack in the window or a person open carrying. It was the people who had reason to hide the fact they had a gun that worried these guys.

 

[darthtang aw]

You make it sound so simple.  How about the 20 year old kid whose never held a gun in his life, and decides to run down to the local Academy on his 21st birthday to buy that 9mm "just because he can".  Buys a couple boxes of ammo, heads to the gun range, gets someone to show him how to load and shoot it, and you have another innocent gun toter walking amongst you.  If I were a cop in Arizona, I'd be VERY afraid.
 
most 20 year olds that LEGALLY own a gun have been raised around them, i am sure they know how to load it already. dude seriously..........your out of this world extreme examples are ridiculous.
darth (there is a reason you arent a cop) Tang

 

[mantisman51]

Also, you have to be 21 y/o+ to carry concealed.