To BB or not to BB..

[gregm779]

I love my sandbed and could not imagine going BB even if it is more "stable" in a lot of people's minds. I stir some of my sand when I clean to help prevent buildup. It just doesn't look natural even if you glue sand to the bottom it is exactly flat. I don't think my brains would be as happy and my wrasses would probably knock themselves out trying to go to bed. My flounder would also have a hard tim camoflauging himself. I have 0 algae in my tank and if it's extra nutrients you want to get rid off, that's why we have refugiums. For the main reason of the look of it I will stick with a DSB. Some say it's less maintenance to have BB which is probably true, but then again freshwater tanks are lower maintenance too.

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by Beth
iwantacans, sorry to hear that your DSB crashed for you. You want to tell us what happened? Maybe it will help those of us who still have them. Did you even have one?
my dsb never crashed. it never wiped out my whole tank. however 3 yrs after set up and routine maitnece of vacuming 1 a week replensing, ect ect i becan to notice patches of alage growing around the base of my lr. currious i started testing... hmmm thats odd no po4.. so i started asking on some other bpards, and a wonderful man from florida who shall remain nameless asked me to take a sample out from my dsb and test it.... well omg i was amazed at the results... 0 po4.. i was baffled so i emailed this dr. or pathology and told him.. then he just came out and said it like i did, dsbs are sink holes. harmful wastes build up and up and up, until the dsb is saturated. then poof...
now i will say the dsb has a pleasent look, im all about the bb, heavy flow, and heavy skimming. its much easier to maintain a tank when the wastes hever have a chance

 

[beth]

Originally posted by iwantacans
my dsb never crashed. it never wiped out my whole tank. however 3 yrs after set up and routine maintanence of vacuuming 1 a week replenishing, etc etc i becan to notice patches of alage growing around the base of my lr.
I'm not surprised, since you are not supposed to ever vacuum a DSB. I am sure if we analyze your system and husbandry practices, we could probably find more problem areas that have to do more with you not knowing how to take care of a DSB then with an inherent problem with the system itself.
The reason DSBs fail, is because hobbyists running them do not know how to do it. There is a very specific way to do it; if you fail in this area, even by just adding the wrong thing, such as a sand sifting star [equivalent to the hobbyist vacuuming] then the DSB will fail. An acro tank under PCs and NOs will fail too but that doesn't mean that trying to keep acroporas is hopeless. Given the right setup and knowledgeable attention from the hobbyist, the DSB does just fine, just as an acro tank will do well given a pristine environment and the correct high intensity lighting.

 

[shouse]

very nice tank squidd. Could we keep a very small amount of sand for appearance and vacume it every week if we like the BB concept but not being able to never see sand?

 

[coryherb]

Beth,
These are very knowledgable people that have given up on sand beds..almost always because of the supposed 4 year crash. What are you saying they did wrong? What is the secret to having a sand bed longer? I see more and more of the people that know what they are talking about in these threads say they are going to or have already switched to no sand bed. They say you can't avoid the 4 year crash. Your sand becomes saturated after a certain amount of time. I have had freshwater fish long enough to know there is substance to that comment. I would like to have sand in my tank. Maybe your speaking from experience of yours or someone you know..you know a lot more people doing this than I do. How can you keep your sand healthy if you can't disturb it? With freshwater fish I vacuumed 1/3 of the tank every couple of months.
What they say happens is the DSB will eventually start leaking phosphates. It gets worse and worse. You can't do much with the sand directly as it will just release more or worse stuff. What has really made me think BB is the way to go..is the results of the skimming. A BB skimmer cup has nothing compared to a DSB skimmer cup. Would like a Sand Bed but at what cost?

 

[beth]

There is a lot of info on "how to" set up a DSB. Very basics are: size of sand grains, variety of sand, and sand bed infauna that are not predatory to other sand fauna, including bacteria.
My tank is coming up on 4 yrs shortly, so I guess I should go ahead and take it down? :thinking: I believe Bang Guy's exceeds 4 yrs.
Rule #1: Do not disrupt the sandbed by either mechanically vaccuuming it, blowing it or introducing fish that disrupt the sand bed [such as burrowing wrasses or hole-digging gobies].
Rule #2: Introduce and replenish as needed with sandbed fauna that shift or move sand, not sift it or ingest it. Take care to not introduce any animals which prey on sand fauna, such as hermit crabs, some gobies, etc.]
I am not "advocating" for anyone to set up a sandbed, mind you, I am just sick of hearing "know-it-alls" harp about how a sandbed tank will turn into an apocolpse when the clock stricts midnight at year 4. That is just hype, people.
If you like BB, then go for it. There are beautiful tanks with BB and most advanced hobbyists choose this route. Most reefers focus on corals in this hobby, and don't want to dedicated 6+" of space to sand. But in the process of advancing to new ways of setting up tanks, lets not trash everything that came first. Just because you got a new BMW, doesn't mean my ole Catty doesn't work just as well. It just insn't necessary to walk all over DSB because BB is popular. Actually, BB has been around a long time...there's nothing new about it.

 

[coryherb]

I am not sure what I am going to do. Yea BB has been around a lot longer than DSB for sure. Decisions decisions. My head hurts from reading about sand beds . I change my mind almost hourly of the sand beds in both the tank and fuge. /sigh
If I do go with any type of sand bed I hope you are available for all types of critter questions!! Okay..I hope you are available for all types of critter questions no matter what I decide.

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by Beth
There is a lot of info on "how to" set up a DSB. Very basics are: size of sand grains, variety of sand, and sand bed infauna that are not predatory to other sand fauna, including bacteria.
My tank is coming up on 4 yrs shortly, so I guess I should go ahead and take it down? :thinking: I believe Bang Guy's exceeds 4 yrs.
Rule #1: Do not disrupt the sandbed by either mechanically vaccuuming it, blowing it or introducing fish that disrupt the sand bed [such as burrowing wrasses or hole-digging gobies].
Rule #2: Introduce and replenish as needed with sandbed fauna that shift or move sand, not sift it or ingest it. Take care to not introduce any animals which prey on sand fauna, such as hermit crabs, some gobies, etc.]
I am not "advocating" for anyone to set up a sandbed, mind you, I am just sick of hearing "know-it-alls" harp about how a sandbed tank will turn into an apocolpse when the clock stricts midnight at year 4. That is just hype, people.
If you like BB, then go for it. There are beautiful tanks with BB and most advanced hobbyists choose this route. Most reefers focus on corals in this hobby, and don't want to dedicated 6+" of space to sand. But in the process of advancing to new ways of setting up tanks, lets not trash everything that came first. Just because you got a new BMW, doesn't mean my ole Catty doesn't work just as well. It just insn't necessary to walk all over DSB because BB is popular. Actually, BB has been around a long time...there's nothing new about it.
beth if this was the case why does miricale mud ask that you take out the bottom half every yr or 2 and replace?... what they are asking you do it to take out all the harmful elements that accumilate there. also by replacing the fauna you are in no way helping to reduce the toxicity that accumilate... the products left by the fauna can be consumed by one thing. alage...that is it, that is typically why alage is the first sighn of a failing dsb

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by Beth
BB has been around a long time...there's nothing new about it.
yup and it is also the only time tested way to sucsessfully run a reef.... the only way a bb tank will crash is by neglect. also beth i shoud reiterate i didnt have a dsb... mine was 1" thick, i did the steve weast treatment... except i never vacumed it all i just replenished what i vacumed...

 

[acrylic51]

Question for you DSB users can you tell me where the nitrification and denitrification process actually takes place in the sand bed???? Much deeper than you have your sand beds at probably so what would be the advantage of running a sand bed deeper than where the good action takes place????????

 

[beth]

https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...b&pagenumber=2
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...&highlight=dsb
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...&highlight=dsb
Just a few references to running a DSB along with Bang Guy's very long exp with them. Isn't 20 yrs enough to measure success? However, I will say it again. There is a very specific "science" to DSB that needs to be adhered to. If you fail to follow the DSB "dos and don'ts", then you will likely fail. I have found that one of the most important things to success is an interest in the sandbed ecosystem in and of itself. Personally, I like my sand bed just as much as my corals, and take care of it more than I take care of my corals. There are not too many hobbyists that don't run sandbeds somewhere in the system. If not within the aquaria, then as an attached ecosystem "filter".
I don't know much about Mircle Mud. I think the reason they want hobbyists to replace it, is so that their sales will increase.

 

[coryherb]

just what i needed more reading about sand beds!!
hehe..actually ty..am dutifully reading.

 

[beth]

Basically, DSBs are excellent natural nitrate removers and the depth of the sandbed correlates directly with the sandbed’s efficiency as a NNR. Those who use shallower DSBs, 4” and less are more likely to fail then those who use the standard depth of 6+. In all my exp. on this forum, I have seen few hobbyist who have set up DSBs that have gone the mile and set up 6” DSB. Yes, it make a difference. Also, few people attempting to setup this system do so correctly. Frequently not understanding that this is a natural filter system, and not just a sand bed. Painstakingly spending hundreds on sands just the right particle size and even depth to then be tempted by placing a jawfish in the DSB. Or an animal that is not so obviously disruptive such as a starfish, a wrasse or even a simple hermit crab .
When I set up my reef, I put the sand and the LR in. I have had zero ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate since day 1. Never cycled. All who can say that raise your hand plez.

 

[squidd]

.....

 

[reefnut]

Squidd, or anyone that has been running a BB for a while... how is the debris cleaned off the bottom of the tank?? The few BB I have seen are not elevated off the bottom so I don't understand how it's cleaned...

 

[nm reef]

I'm not all that into the "scientific" debate on the issue....I've had a functioning DSB for well over 4 years now...no major issues and no massive algaes...tons of life in the sand bed and no water chemistry problems. I've seen lots of great systems running shallow sand beds or bare bottom and those systems work fine...I prefer the appearence of a DSB and the one I have seems to function fine. Bottom line is this...there are many ways to establish a reef system.....and most of them have pros & cons associated with their use....I prefer a DSB and take the time and effort to maintain it....it works for me as well as for numerous other hobbyists. The debate will likely continue forever on which method is best...and I don't play that game. There are many methods that work....and in my opinion to say one is better than another is simply foolish. If steps are taken to establish and properly maintain a system with any of the proven successful methods you can be successful....no matter which "method" you decide on.:thinking:

 

[squidd]

I don't know how "everybody " does it...and it's probably like the "not everybody runs a DSB correctly either" type scenerio...
I have a large amount of flow directed behind the rock work and the rock work is set in an "open" fashion, to allow flow through..
Lifting deitrus "up" and "out" away from the face of the rock where the closed loop system "wash's" over the face of the rock keeping deitrus suspended, until it goes through the overflow and is removed to the sump/skimmer/fuge area to be "proccessed"....
I have a "settling chamber" (low flow) built into the S/F where a good amount of deitrus "settles out" and can be conviently vacumed out...
I also do regular partial waterchanges (from the tank) where I siphon out any deitrus that gets "pushed forward" and collects along the front edge/floor ....There I have my mushrooms, etc on flat "pancake rocks" (DIY Agrocrete) that I can convinently vacume around, move, or lift out if neccessary...
Now of course I have polyps and a few "transient" mushrooms attached to the bottom, but they "close up" and allow me to vacume/siphon around them..
Here's pic of the "return" before rock work...
I'll try to get one later today , looking "under/between" the rock where you can get an idea of the "free flow" allowed by a BB tank...

 

[squidd]

Heres a pic highlighting the areas the flow actually comes "out" ... (with the C/L turned off you can actually "see" the polyps "move" from the underneath flow)
I can also "see" the return pipe through several of the "caves" (but "only" if you point a flashlight into the dark recesses...not visable with normal viewing)...that's what I'll try to get a pic of for later...

 

[reefnut]

Thanks for the run down Squidd. I personally like the idea of a BB in the display tank. The only problem I see is if debris started to collect somewhere under the rocks.
As said... there are different ways to establish a reef and they all have their pros and cons. Both the BB and DSB could become problematic if not setup and maintained properly.
I'm leaning toward my next tank having a BB in the display and a DSB in the refuge... this may change by the time I get around to setting it up but for now that seems to be a good combination to me.

 

[beth]

Originally posted by NM reef
...there are many ways to establish a reef system.....and most of them have pros & cons associated with their use.... The debate will likely continue forever on which method is best...and I don't play that game. There are many methods that work....and in my opinion to say one is better than another is simply foolish. If steps are taken to establish and properly maintain a system with any of the proven successful methods you can be successful....no matter which "method" you decide on.:thinking:
Amen, NMR, and that is the point I was trying to make. There really is no reason to trash one system just to promote another. Variety is the spice of life and I think there is enough variety in this hobby where every hobbyist can find "a way" that suits them. Personally, for me I don't want to vaccum and siphon. I have done that for years with all the different tanks I had and being able have a tank that virtually runs itself was a cool idea for me. Also, I am admittedly not DIY inclined, so setting up completely natural was a viable option for me who wanted to have a reef tank. I guess I am just saying that we shouldn't scare others off from a particular "system" just because we prefer something else. There are a lot of new reefers reading the forums and are looking to us who have proven reef tanks for complete info. Just because Dr. Ron's tank turned black, does not mean that everyone elses' will follow suit. There are still plenty of professional reefers that support DSBs.