To DSB or not to DSB

[barry cuda]

Wife and I are considering the merits of DSB/liverock/skimmer filtration vs. going wet-dry with the skimmer. We're finding more and more evidence that DSB really is workable and in fact works well when done right, but it still makes me nervous to contemplate setting up a large aquarium (starting with 100gal) without a filtration device chugging away (except for the skimmer, of course).
I'd like to hear from those of you who have used this method and what your experiences were like, good and bad. Especially what you think you did right, what you did wrong, and what the effects were. I'd rather consider sinking that time and money into LR and maybe a fuge and/or sump, if it really is a reasonable approach for a first-time SW aquarist. Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?

 

[daniel411]

Check out the "Natural Aquariums" book by Tulluck in the dry goods section. A great book regarding this.
For a reef, I prefer the approach you're speaking of. For fish only, I find a wet-dry is the way to go. This is a very opionated topic that even the "professional experts" argue about. Will a DSB go bad in 5-7 years? Who knows, but that is a LONG time atleast to me.

 

[doris]

We have had a 3" dsb in the 100gal main reef tank and a 7"dsb in the ciruclated 60gal macro refugium for the last year. Within the next month, we are setting up a 220gal hex tank, that we bought from Adam13 on this website, and will be eliminating the dsb completely from the system. I, over the past year, have seen no benefit as far as reducing nitrates in the main system and am seeking a cleaner and sleeker look in the new tank. Plans are to keep about a 1" substrate in the new system for esthetic appearances only.

 

[barry cuda]

Daniel, when you say you think the wet/dry is the way to go for a FO tank, why is that? Is there a disadvantage to DSB/LR filtration unless you have corals/other inverts in the tank?

 

[sanangelofish2]

I agree with Kip... Deep sand is the way to go with a good skimmer (euro-reef)

 

[daniel411]

Originally posted by Barry Cuda
Daniel, when you say you think the wet/dry is the way to go for a FO tank, why is that? Is there a disadvantage to DSB/LR filtration unless you have corals/other inverts in the tank?
No, I see no disadvantage in a DSB/LR for a fish only system. Actually, there are more disadvantages with regards to a wet-dry approach IMO.
Its just that with a wet-dry you can support a larger bio-load. Which is what most people want with regards to fish only systems.
I really am a fan of the DSB/LR "natural" filtration with protein skimming. However I believe if you use that method, you must really focus on going slow with loading the aquarium up with fish and I atleast will always keep a light to moderate bio-load.
Side note: I've never even detected any ammonia-nitrite-nitrate readings while useing this method. Even after a coral beauty died and I left in only my 38g for the clean up crew to eat. Pretty rock solid stability!

 

[tarhull87]

Daniel I've got a 38 gallon as well... I am about to switch out my UGF for a 3-4 inch deep sand bed. I have about 30 lbs of rock and a SeaClone 100 Skimmer. I've got two powerheads 300gph as well. How many living fish/invertebrates do you have in your tank?

 

[bang guy]

I have over 1000 gallons of water in my setup. The only thing filtering it is a DSB. They work.
I know my water is in good shape because many of the more sensitive crustaceans are reproducing. Sand Skaters being one of the most sensitive. If there was something wrong with my water they would die off and certainly wouldn't reproduce.

 

[tarhull87]

Bang Guy what is a lagoon? You have any pictures of that?

 

[barry cuda]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I have over 1000 gallons of water in my setup. The only thing filtering it is a DSB. They work.

No mechanical filtration at all? What do you do about detritus & particulates?

 

[daniel411]

Absolutely crystal clear water and no mechanical filtration. Mechanical filtration will filter copepods, larvae, etc out of your water. Detritus is handled by a clean up crew and not over feeding. Nonexistant in my aquarium.
Tarhull87,
I currently just have about 5 shrimp, 12 or so margarita(sp?) snails, 5 turbo snails, 8-12 red leg hermit crabs, 8-12 blue leg hermit crabs, 3 peppermint shrimp, some soft coral and zoos, and a yellow watchman goby. My aquarium is half torn down though. I've just moved and am completely redoing it. I've given away my other fish, had to keep my favorite goby though. Removed my DSB and the plenum underneath. I curently have 60lbs of sugar sized carib sea aragomax building a bacteria coat in a rubbermaid tub. Applying Kalk to about 4 small aptasia that appeared a month or so afer I picked up my latest coral. When all this is done I'll put it back together.
38g Oceanic Cube aquarium
-60lbs of Carib Sea Sugar sized Aragamax. Still undecided if I will have a plenum underneath it. Probally not.
-Not sure how many pounds of live rock I have, but theres "barely" a decent amount of swimming room left in the aquarium. It came out of my 90g and was a "good" amount for that size aquarium.
-CPR Hang-on refugium. Filled with mineral mud and macro-algae, looking at placing a small clip-on power compact light onto it.
-A couple maxijets and heater
-I just picked up a Seaclone 100 also. Wanted a small hang-on, I think a Hang-on berlin or turboflotor(sp?) would just be to much.
-HOB Magnum, which is normally ran empty, but sometimes I'll put carbon in it just for a day.
-150w HQL metal halide with atinic lights supplementing it.

 

[tarhull87]

Do you think I need a sump for my 38 gallon tank?
I like the idea of a HOT CPR refugium. I just need to get some more live rock. Right now I have only about 15 pounds and this weekend I am putting in a 3-4 inch Aragamax as well Sand bed seeded with 2-3 cups of live sand. I have the SeaClone 100. Do you all think that I will be alright with this much filtratoin?
Can someone help me out with lighting decisions? RIght now I just have a stand floursecent thing. I wanna be able to add coral in the future though.

 

[daniel411]

You don't have to have a sump. It can help, but isn't necessary. I have one sitting unused that I have no intentions of installing.
It will actually take some time for your sand to become "live". The bacteria, worms, etc need to feed/reproduce/spread out.
Is the live rock you have really live? Covered in coraline, maybe some macro-algae, etc? You will need more to do it the "natural" way. I believe most people reccomend 1.5-2lbs. per gallon of water.
Regarding lighting. You have many options. Thats something you're need to research though, its to broad of a question.
Best of luck.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by Barry Cuda
No mechanical filtration at all? What do you do about detritus & particulates?
None... no Mechanical filtration. The detritus that isn't caught by filter feeders settles in the low flow areas to be consumed by Cirratulid Worms. I do have a lot of visible particulates. If I scoop out a cup of water it becomes obvious that most of it is live zooplankton. My Chromis pick at it all day.

 

[lesleybird]

Hi, In my opinion I think that a lot of live rock works as good biological filtration, but you also need a lot of mechanical filtration if you are going to have a lot of fish and not just corals. If you were doing only corals maybe the mechanical filtration is not as important as one does not usually put a lot of large food pieces in for most coral like we do with fish. I think that a skimmer is a good addition in any system, although I have run smaller tanks with saltwater fish and inverts for a few years in smalller tanks without one doing 30 percent water changes every two weeks. I do like the idea of some type of overflow filter (predrilled is best if you can) as it keeps the surface scum down, and the constant exchange of surface water provides for excellent gass exchange and oxygenation of the water.
In my new ninety gallon I have mainly fish and a few corals. I have opted to use a lot of live rock with a lot of open spaces under and between to rocks for good water flow, and for the fish to hide and feel secure. I decided on a shallow agronite sand bed as I fear that the deep sand bed would hold too much waste, and I would rather just siphen it every couple of weeks than to depend on it to totally breakdown on its way to the bottom and turn into nitrate the nitrogen gass. I am afraid that there would still be wastes that are held in a deep sand bed that do not get completely broken down and removed. In my smaller forty gallon I had crushed coral of about two inches that I vaccumed every two weeks and it had a lot of build up in it all the time, but I was still able to keep the nitrates down by vaccuming.
Anyway, in my new ninety gallon I have about an inch and a half of the 1 to 2mm. size agronite sand. It can also be purchased in bags of liquid bacteria that speeds the cycle proccess. I got one of those siphen and fill things that hooks up to the faucet to empty about 20 percent of the tank every two weeks. Don't use it to fill a saltwater tank of corse. It has a large vaccuum tube on the end. I have found with the 1 to 2 mm. size agronite one can still vaccuum with this without sucking it all out of the tank. I feel better sucking it out every two weeks than leaving it to decompose down to the bottom of a deep sand bed that may crash one day. This agronite does not hold on to the large waste particals as much as the crushed coral does. I find that with a lot of circulation a lot of the debris goes through the over flow into my Tidepool 2 filter which has a lot of mechanical filtration media and biological media also. I also like these things that I have fould called micron filtration pads. These are like heavy felt that can be cut and placed into any filter. I put the 50 micron size in my filter, and it really traps the tiny particals. A good skimmer also helps to keep the water quality high. I am sure that everyone has their own ideas on deep sand beds. I read that in the early Berlin live rock systems they advised not to use any sand at all as it held wastes and was thus a nitrate trap. Well it really doesn't look good without any sand at all, so I vote for a shallow sand bed that one can suck clean every couple of weeks with a lot of live rock, good water flow, lots of mechanical filtration, and a good skimmer too. I would love to have a refugium with macro algea to help reduce nitrates, but do not have the room. My only concerns on macro algea harvesting for nitrate reduction (heard it is very effective at this) is that it also can consume the calcium and other minerals which would need to be watched carefully and replaced. Lesley

 

[jlem]

I personally do not like the look of 4-6 inches of sand in my main display and because I am military and deploy often I don't have a sump that could spring a leak while I am gone. In my 125 gallon reef I have a skimmer and about a 1 inch sand bed that turns into just a dusting of sand towards the back of the tank. I have been gone from home for about 7 weeks now and my wife sent me some pictures of the tank. Nothing has died and besides the glass not being cleaned as often the tank is doing great with no signs of stress. I have a very light bioload with a yellow tang, purple tang, flame angel, clown fish, and yellow tail damsel being the only fish in the system. If I put more fish I may consider a refugium, but the bioload that my system produces right now is easily taken care of by just live rock and a seaclone 150 skimmer.

 

[ekclark]

I have dsb in my 75 and its refuge, I am setting up a 125 as we speak and it will have a dsb. I can see it working and love having another little ecosystem going on the bottom of my tank. Use it, the arguments against it haven't made a very strong case, IMO, and some simply don't like the look. I will use one until I see some real evidence that their so called risks outweigh their benefits.

 

[jlem]

Simply putting a DSB in a tank is not going to give you another little ecosystem in your tank. You need a high enough bioload and a high enough concentration of the right type of critters. You also need the right size and concentration of different types of sand to trully benefit from a Functioning DSB. I have no doubt that a properly setup DSB does a great job at it's intended purpose, but not all tanks can support a DSB for it's intended purpose, and if a person sets up a DSB that does not do it's job then they just have 4-6 inches of sand taking up space. lighting is the same way. You can't just throw on lights and expect to keep everything under the sun. You have to worry about wattage and spectrums and lighting hours.

 

[fishfood]

I had a DSB for 2 yrs. It looked ok and helped tremendously with the hair algae i had. But about 3 months ago i started getting bad algae blooms covering the sand bed and it looked so bad. Water perams were good, Lights had been replace about 2 months prior. RO and DI filters were replace about 3 months prior. I couldn't figure it out. I also had a fuge set up with tons of macro and a shallow sand bed. That thing was sparkling clean. I just moved and removed the DSB and went bare bottom. On factor for that is i'm upgrading to more current for my sps and the sand gets blown everywere and i couldn't stand the nasty algae growing on the sand bed and couldn't figure out what it was. No i have some black starboard on the bottom of my tank that i'm covering with coraline and zoos. I keep high current in the tank and have a filter bag on the end of the overflow that i clean every week or so. So my filtration is the LR, Macro Algae and a protien skimmer along with syphoning the detritus off the bottom every other week. BTW I love the look of the bare bottow with zoos covering it. I only have little frags covering it right now but can just picture what it will look like with a rainbow of zoos covering it. The purple coraline looks great on the black starboard.

 

[shine~on]

Got any pics??