Topic: water changes. Why?
- Thread starter dad
- Start date
broomer5
Active Member
No problem here.
The ocean is so vast, so huge, so much water in comparison to toxins - that they are diluted to such low levels - in comparison to the ocean.
Earth can clean itself of many toxins - not all - but many - if given the time for it to happen.
In high traffic areas, or where industrial wastes are dumped or discharge into the sea, you'll find fewer and fewer species of creatures.
The one's that can handle it are pretty darn hardy and can somehow survive even under such nasty conditions. Many times the diversity of life in these areas is no way close to what they were prior to the introduction of pollutants.
It's sad.
Delicate spieces either move on to cleaner areas or parish.
I don't think there's any argument about how plants and animals adapt to changes in the environment, but we're just talking about home saltwater aquariums - most often smaller tanks under 100 gallons or so.
Living creatures either adapt, evolve or die.
But it takes some time for these things to happen ..... except the dieing part.
The ocean is so vast, so huge, so much water in comparison to toxins - that they are diluted to such low levels - in comparison to the ocean.
Earth can clean itself of many toxins - not all - but many - if given the time for it to happen.
In high traffic areas, or where industrial wastes are dumped or discharge into the sea, you'll find fewer and fewer species of creatures.
The one's that can handle it are pretty darn hardy and can somehow survive even under such nasty conditions. Many times the diversity of life in these areas is no way close to what they were prior to the introduction of pollutants.
It's sad.
Delicate spieces either move on to cleaner areas or parish.
I don't think there's any argument about how plants and animals adapt to changes in the environment, but we're just talking about home saltwater aquariums - most often smaller tanks under 100 gallons or so.
Living creatures either adapt, evolve or die.
But it takes some time for these things to happen ..... except the dieing part.
reeferx
Member
In minute amounts of toxins, wouldnt most animals adapt their immune systems to them<hr></blockquote>
Corals do apparently to some extent with metals. It is called 'sequestering' I think. I believe it is when you overload their capacity to do so that they die. I am no expert here though, that is for sure.
On the topic of water changes, I think one curve ball is the salt mix you choose to use. Many apparently contain several metals, etc.. several times over natural sea water.
I brought it up a couple weeks back in this thread:
<a href="https://www.saltwaterfish.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=009636" target="_blank">https://www.saltwaterfish.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=009636</a>
Corals do apparently to some extent with metals. It is called 'sequestering' I think. I believe it is when you overload their capacity to do so that they die. I am no expert here though, that is for sure.
On the topic of water changes, I think one curve ball is the salt mix you choose to use. Many apparently contain several metals, etc.. several times over natural sea water.
I brought it up a couple weeks back in this thread:
<a href="https://www.saltwaterfish.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=009636" target="_blank">https://www.saltwaterfish.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=009636</a>
broomer5
Active Member
Sure ruaround
No telling what our tanks can handle without discussing a very "specific" toxin, and how it may affect a particular species.
Some are easy - with a lot of exposure and data available. Copper and most inverts as an example.
Other organic or inorganic compounds, hydrocarbons, hairspray as mentioned, high levels of a lot of things could cause potential problems.
Then again as you mentioned - maybe our bacteria, filtration, refugiums and other things could possibly take care of some of these nasty things.
Guess we either do a water change now and then, or wait until someone publishes some research results. Or just ignore the fact that this sort of thing could even occur and just go from there
No telling what our tanks can handle without discussing a very "specific" toxin, and how it may affect a particular species.
Some are easy - with a lot of exposure and data available. Copper and most inverts as an example.
Other organic or inorganic compounds, hydrocarbons, hairspray as mentioned, high levels of a lot of things could cause potential problems.
Then again as you mentioned - maybe our bacteria, filtration, refugiums and other things could possibly take care of some of these nasty things.
Guess we either do a water change now and then, or wait until someone publishes some research results. Or just ignore the fact that this sort of thing could even occur and just go from there
ruaround
Active Member
As far as water changes go I guess its still up in the air then...I have a tank of 8 years and until 3 years ago i had never even heard of a water change...I just checked the salinity and added water as need...It is still goin strong!!!
It has the most simple filtration as well...UGF power heads a bac-pak skilter and and a TON of live rock...I guess i just "lucked" out for years to not have a severe collapse! Now that thats been said, If you were to "raise" a tank w/o water changes, and the animals built a tolerence to the toxins, how do you feel about introducing new animals to you system?
It has the most simple filtration as well...UGF power heads a bac-pak skilter and and a TON of live rock...I guess i just "lucked" out for years to not have a severe collapse! Now that thats been said, If you were to "raise" a tank w/o water changes, and the animals built a tolerence to the toxins, how do you feel about introducing new animals to you system?
broomer5
Active Member
ruaround
Your tank may be totally free of any of these unknown toxins we keep discussing here, and such - introducing new critters would not pose any problem IMO.
I am not a biologist nor have I done any research on this topic, so I am sort of guessing along with the rest of us here.
Maybe fish and inverts do build up a resistance to some otherwise deadly chemical compounds, but I would doubt if the levels reached a certain point - no matter how resistant the animal is - it can only take some much.
Good discussion - I just don't have the answer - just my opinions
Your tank may be totally free of any of these unknown toxins we keep discussing here, and such - introducing new critters would not pose any problem IMO.
I am not a biologist nor have I done any research on this topic, so I am sort of guessing along with the rest of us here.
Maybe fish and inverts do build up a resistance to some otherwise deadly chemical compounds, but I would doubt if the levels reached a certain point - no matter how resistant the animal is - it can only take some much.
Good discussion - I just don't have the answer - just my opinions
biohaz201
Member
I don't know if this is true but my aunt saw somewhere a self contained freshwater aquarium. It was supposed to be completly self sustaining between the fish and the plants. I don't think she got this right though. I don't know if this would apply to reefs but I thought I would just toss it out there.
reeferx
Member
Sammy,
You are careful with your words and try to do the IMO thing as much as possible as I ~try~ to do (failing now and then), I just want to give you a little ribbing (hey it's friday!) for saying that there aren't any unnatural foods being thrown in the ocean.
IMO, there are! Everyday! Hell it might be worse that a lot of aquariums out there. Maybe the fish aren't eating it, if that's your point, but it's out there and probably affecting a lot of them to some degree, I would think anyway.
~People~ are dumping everything under the sun into the ocean all the time. Up until 1972, it was legal to dump just about anything in the ocean. Today you need permits, but there are still 'exceptions.'
Plent of them apparently doing a quick look, esp. the farther out you go.
I found this gem online:
Radioactive wastes have been dumped at some 47 sites in the north Pacific and Atlantic
oceans, and in the Kara Sea in the Arctic. This dumping began in the 1940s by the UK and the
USA, and was followed in the 1960s by a number of European countries. Except for the
disposal in the Arctic of six submarine reactors and some damaged nuclear fuel by the former
Soviet Union, which only came to light in 1992, the dumping has been largely of packaged
low-level radioactive waste. Most of this was carried out at North Atlantic sites, initially
under the control of individual states but latterly, since 1967, under the auspices of the
Nuclear Energy Agency of the OECD. Following a voluntary moratorium on the disposal to
the ocean of low-level radioactive waste in 1982 only the former Soviet Union continued that
practice.<hr></blockquote>
What does this have to do with water changes? I forgot, but I thought it was interesting.
<img src="graemlins//evilwhorn.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil Horn]" />
You are careful with your words and try to do the IMO thing as much as possible as I ~try~ to do (failing now and then), I just want to give you a little ribbing (hey it's friday!) for saying that there aren't any unnatural foods being thrown in the ocean.
IMO, there are! Everyday! Hell it might be worse that a lot of aquariums out there. Maybe the fish aren't eating it, if that's your point, but it's out there and probably affecting a lot of them to some degree, I would think anyway.
~People~ are dumping everything under the sun into the ocean all the time. Up until 1972, it was legal to dump just about anything in the ocean. Today you need permits, but there are still 'exceptions.'
Plent of them apparently doing a quick look, esp. the farther out you go.
I found this gem online:
Radioactive wastes have been dumped at some 47 sites in the north Pacific and Atlantic
oceans, and in the Kara Sea in the Arctic. This dumping began in the 1940s by the UK and the
USA, and was followed in the 1960s by a number of European countries. Except for the
disposal in the Arctic of six submarine reactors and some damaged nuclear fuel by the former
Soviet Union, which only came to light in 1992, the dumping has been largely of packaged
low-level radioactive waste. Most of this was carried out at North Atlantic sites, initially
under the control of individual states but latterly, since 1967, under the auspices of the
Nuclear Energy Agency of the OECD. Following a voluntary moratorium on the disposal to
the ocean of low-level radioactive waste in 1982 only the former Soviet Union continued that
practice.<hr></blockquote>
What does this have to do with water changes? I forgot, but I thought it was interesting.
<img src="graemlins//evilwhorn.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil Horn]" />
dad
Active Member
This is me theory; I add iodine, calcium, and a lot of different chems to my tank.
The reason I do this is not because I have a test kit that tells me to or anything. I just see something in my tank that looks like it is not doing well and add what I read (on the net) that it may be lacking or what helps it out.
I do not do water test unless I see something wrong either. I've done one water test in the last 6 months and that was yesterday.
The tank has a natural way of going through its cycle.
#1
Now with that being said:
By doing short term water changes:
Are you disturbing the tanks natural cycle?
Are you poring your chems down the drain along with good plankton etc?
#2
Or are you:
Getting rid of "toxins"?
Replenishing nutrients?
I feel like #1 Outranks #2
Now comes the" but".
But, this is for larger tanks (50 gallon +) that have an established dsb and the right percentage of plants, fish, and rocks.
I really feel that no one will ever really know the right answers. This is just my opinion,
The reason I do this is not because I have a test kit that tells me to or anything. I just see something in my tank that looks like it is not doing well and add what I read (on the net) that it may be lacking or what helps it out.
I do not do water test unless I see something wrong either. I've done one water test in the last 6 months and that was yesterday.
The tank has a natural way of going through its cycle.
#1
Now with that being said:
By doing short term water changes:
Are you disturbing the tanks natural cycle?
Are you poring your chems down the drain along with good plankton etc?
#2
Or are you:
Getting rid of "toxins"?
Replenishing nutrients?
I feel like #1 Outranks #2
Now comes the" but".
But, this is for larger tanks (50 gallon +) that have an established dsb and the right percentage of plants, fish, and rocks.
I really feel that no one will ever really know the right answers. This is just my opinion,
broomer5
Active Member
What this whole thread shows me once again is that there is no right way to run a tank.
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes each week.
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes each month.
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes once a year.
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes never.
Go figure
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes each week.
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes each month.
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes once a year.
Successful beautiful healthy tanks with water changes never.
Go figure
zack schwartz
Active Member
I would think so. The only thing is you don't add salt so why not <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" />
ruaround
Active Member
Originally posted by Zack Schwartz:
<strong>I would think so. The only thing is you don't add salt so why not <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
When water evaps the salt does not...hence the salinity of your tank goes up...you would have to add some salt over time ofcourse, but what i meant was changing the water itself. By adding new water you may introduce something new, or dilute something thats already in the water.
<strong>I would think so. The only thing is you don't add salt so why not <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
When water evaps the salt does not...hence the salinity of your tank goes up...you would have to add some salt over time ofcourse, but what i meant was changing the water itself. By adding new water you may introduce something new, or dilute something thats already in the water.
1
10k
Guest
Great thread guys. Really got everyone thinking...including me