Topic: water changes. Why?

[dad]

I really want to thank all for replying and adding to this thread.
I for one have learned alot.
But,(here goes that word again)(and I do not want to start a new post)some people have said that it is not the water that adds the nutrients, but the salt.
Now explain this to me; If I took a gallon of water from my tank and evaporated the "water", what would be the difference between the salt left over and the salt I would buy?
I have had many people and seen many people on post here that use this an excuss to do water changes. Even my lfs swears by this.
A reply earlyer by Sammy even mentioned something to this.
I'm just trying to learn here everyone, ok?

 

[tru conch]

the wierd thing is i was just debating this topic in my head last night. i came home to visit, and was talking to my father about his 55. he never does water changes, and he has never lost a fish. (by the way, he has been in saltwater since 1977) i have been doing monthly water changes on my 75, but unfortuanately (sp) i have lost some fish (some to disease/stress, some unknown-maybe cyanide poisoning). (yes i did treat the fish, and some did not make it, and i do feel bad). i have come to the conclusion that the water changes are affecting my tank in a negative manner. so i am going to go with my fathers experience and just monitor my water quality, doing water changes only when nessescary. i understand the purpose of water changes, but i feel that the are not working for me. like one of the sharks say-my tank my choice, and hopefully the right one

 

[dad]

SON..Is that you?
sorry, couldn'r resist,

 

[tru conch]

hahaha. naw my father hasnt found this board yet. maybe i can get him hooked on it, give him an excuse to use the computer.
like father like son....

 

[reeferx]

dad,
(this is creepy that I have to call you 'dad.' you are not my dad!)
Magnesuium, strontium, iodine, calcium, potassium, etc. all would be at lower levels in your old salt than the new salt I would think.
These elements are all part of a healthy reef I believe, and need to be replenished.
I used to just dose with just strontium, iodine and kalk.
If I had stopped doing water changes I don't know how the other elements mentioned and others I didn't would be replenished.

 

[dad]

well this is what I do not understand.
You said "Magnesuium, strontium, iodine, calcium, potassium, etc. all would be at
lower levels in your old salt than the new salt I would think."
Why not?
I'm not a chemist by no means but does salt change its components?
If I took a gallon of water from the ocean and did the same from my tank and evaporated the water from each. Why would the salt be different?

 

[reeferx]

Heh. Dad, I am not a chemist either. I was a film major, ok? What the hell do I know?
I am going under the assumption that we are talking about what is in the salt mix you buy. I am not talking about just sodium.
All common salt mixes contain their witches brew of elements to emulate natural sea water. These elements, it is my understanding, will be absorbed/converted/depleted by your inhabitants over time.

 

[reeferx]

I forgot to mention that a protein skimmer will remove a lot of good stuff from your water too.
But I still like skimmers!

 

[dad]

I'm sorry, I do not follow you.
Are you saying that there are synthetic (salt water) salts that have iodine and all that engineered in them?

 

[ruaround]

So...Would you say not doing a water change would benefit an established system and only the established system? When would you say it is time to do a water change? If your animals could build a tolerence and you decide to run a couple of tests and discover that a few peramiters were outta wack, would you try to change it to what you think it should be right then or would you adjust it gradually? And would adjusting it be detremental to your system since your animals have gotten used to said toxins?

 

[heavenly damsel]

My system is 4 months old, I have not done a water change yet because I am still debating this in my own mind. I have a 105 gallon tank with about 5 gallons of evaporation a week which I top off with distilled water from the supermarket. All is doing well in my tank, but I have not gotten into the corals yet. So far just fish and anemones and mushrooms.
I understand the salt mixes we use have the natural trace elements my system needs. It does not contain the bacteria and copepods that helped create the ecosystem I call my aquarium. I guess a 10% water change would not upset that delicate balance too much, but I am not convinced I should do this to my tank every two weeks or even monthly.
I have a dsb, 140 lbs of LR, a sump with a protien skimmer and a refugium with caulerpa. My water parameters have been good since 3 weeks after setup. I only test for ammonia, trites and trates and of course SG and Ph. I dose once a week with Iodine and bi-weekly with DT's phytoplankton.
My snails are reproducing, my emerald crabs are reproducing, my fish are happy, my anemones are healthy looking and my mushrooms are growing and multiplying. My feather duster has apparently reproduced since I have several little feather dusters that have appeared recently. All seems well in the tank....should I go in and upset that balance?....I'm not convinced yet.
When I start adding the corals I am considering a product called Ocean's blend for daily dosing. from what I can find it looks like the ideal additive.
In the long run I will probably end up doing 10% water changes every 6 months...a spring and fall cleaning if you will, just because. This seems reasonable to me in my little female mind. Don't want to get "sick building syndrome" in the tank. Just a little dusting and cleaning, maybe rearrage the furniture a little. Just MHO.

 

[broomer5]

Heavenly Damsel
Sounds to me like your set up is working great for you - and it is hard to mess with something so right. I bet your mind is equal to anyone else here on the board too - no matter what the gender
For the rest of you following this thread - which I agree is very interesting - much of this water change issue may stem from days past.
With recent improvements in going with more natural filtration methods, live rock, live deep sand beds, nutrient exporting refugiums, better understanding of controlling and maintaining "good" water quality and possibly the advances in and use of better protein skimming - these days it may not be as necessary to do regular water changes - PROVIDING "all" your water parameters are excellent, and "all" your plants/animals are healthy and thriving.
I understand there was a time years ago that most hobbyists did not use these current methods of filtration - that most tanks "looked" sterile, with bleached corals, little if any substrate, and most filtration was done via "man made" mechanical/biological/chemical equipment.
I've not been in this hobby long enought to have done it that way - but have read where many species of fish and inverts were near impossible to keep under those conditions - and that "water changes" were looked upon as one of the ONLY ways to keep fish and critters ALIVE for any period of time.
Maybe with these more recent "better" ways of running a marine tank, "better" quality saltmixes and more refined additives, more written text by sucessful fish/reef keepers and a lot more shared information amongst hobbyists - just maybe the need for water changes is not actually required as they were in the past.
Even though I support doing some water exchanges on my own tanks, I'm not suggestsing that we MUST do water changes, or that we should not.
I'm still going to do them - because it seems to work for me - and I like the "feeling" of a little out with the old and in with the new.
I don't know if these water changes are beneficial or not - my won experience says so - so I follow my gutt feeling and will keep on keeping on.
But it sure is hard to debate this topic with so many folks having such good success running their tanks the best way they choose.
Water change or not.

 

[ruaround]

"Your Tank ~ Your Choice"...(That signature freakin rules!) It may be a matter of personal comfort zone here. I do beleive in over maintanence. I look at my tank everyday, I just dont mess with it everyday. I dont do a water change, I simply add top off water once a week. My tank ~ My choice

 

[ruaround]

"EXAMPLE: Feeding your fish. In the ocean fish always have an abundance of food."
some fish can go weeks or even months until their next meal. And what do you mean by help with the cycle. Your tank does need help starting the nitrogen cycle. If your tank is established there shouldnt be any more cycling, there should be plenty of pods, algae and bacteria for food and filtration.

 

[reeferx]

I'm sorry, I do not follow you.
Are you saying that there are synthetic (salt water) salts that have iodine and all that engineered in them?<hr></blockquote>
Yes, that is what I am saying.
~ Sorry for the late reply, I crashed out last night.
These links were given to me a while ago by broomer5 and Madd Catt that break down salt mixes out there. Quite a hair-raiser actually:
<a href="http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp" target="_blank">http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp</a>
<a href="http://www.aqcraft.com/issue3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aqcraft.com/issue3.htm</a>
*The sr15 report (the aqcraft link) lost some weight with me when I realized that the salt mixes they praised are THEIR OWN however.
Anyway, I think broomer has a good point. Times have changed. Old rules of thumb are not as relevant. You can certainly make it longer between changes than you used to.
I still think small water changes are beneficial, esp. with skimmer use. Like I said before, there are a lot of elements in this equation that your test kit won't acknowledge. I don't think Kent Marine makes a supplement for them all.
The only way I know to replenish them is with water changes.

 

[dad]

Thanks reeferX,
I have never seen this info before.

 

[reeferx]

No problem. Good thread.

 

[uel]

The only time I do a water change is when some of the levels are off and when cleaning out detritus. The reason is every time that I do a water change it seems like something dies from the stress of it all. I do believe that a small (10-25%) change is useless. It will not change the levels (good or bad) enough to last more than a few days. A 50% is min. to make and keep any changes.

 

[reeferx]

Uel, I think it may be your massive water changes that are throwing everything out of whack leading to the stress that causes something to die everytime you do a water change.
Just a guess.

 

[dad]

OK, I want to thank everyone for posting to this thread. I think it has alot of us thinking. I know I am.
This is now my conclusion. Note that this is only "my conclusion", lol
Water changes are necesarry. But done in a very small percentage on a regular basis(under normal conditions).
I am going to start doing about a 1% water change a week. That in my 100g tank, that is only about 1/2 gallon. Even though I have a 100g tank, I estemate that I only have about 50g of water.
Every person will have to come up with their own conclusion. I just feel like (after reading everyone's arguements)this may be the overall answer. ,