Total Alk-Borate Alk=Carbonate Alk (levels?)

squidd

squidd

Active Member
My understanding is Natural Sea water has an Alk of 2.5 meq/l of which about 0.1-0.2 meq/l is Borate.
In an aquarium we want slightly higher Borate levels for Calcium/pH stability but not at the expense of Carbonate Alk.
The levels I have been maintaining are: pH 8.2-8.3 Ca 450, Mag 1320, Alk 4.5meq/l of which 1.5meq/l is Borate...so this means my Carbonate Alk is 3 meq/l...??
I've been maintaining these levels for several months now after bringing them up with Kents Turbo Calc and Super Buffer dkh...
I drip Kalk nightly and have only had to add minor amounts of buffer/cal to "tighten up" the numbers...haven't had any major drops/swings/precip...
Everyone in the tank(s) look happy and from what I've read I'm sitting well in the ballpark...
Just throwing this out for second "opinions"/"direction"/"correction"
Especially on the Borate/Carbonate Ratios
 
007

007

Active Member
Borate has become an issue in my tank in the past and as a result I was getting inaccurate readings from my alk tests. I think that I have solved the issue now (temporarily, as it is boud to return) but I am unsure of the exact ramifications of having an excess of borate . . . . I would like to know though.
I am using Seachem products which from what I have been told contain a lot of borates in them . . . .
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
There are other ions that contribute to Alkalinity but you're probably right about ignoring them as an insignificant contribution.
We disagree slightly, but that's OK. I'm still forming my opinion about Borate so my mind & ears are open.
I believe that PH stability is overrated and a Borate level over 0.2 ppm is always sacrificing Carbonate levels.
I hope you reply (and others) because this needs a really good detailed debate.
These are the factors that have formed my opinion:
a - Higher Carbonate levels have shown to increase growth rates in both Stoney Corals and Soft Corals.
b - Calcium should be balanced with Carbonate levels.
c - Most hobbiests have absolutely no idea what their Borate levels are.
d - Wild reefs have huge PH fluctuations.
e - Carbonate is just as good at buffering PH when compared to Borate.
f - Carbonate level is often the element restricting the growth of Stoney corals. It's never the Borate level.
 
squidd

squidd

Active Member
That's why I'm throwing this out there as well...
I agree with your"factors" especially "c" - Most hobbiests have absolutely no idea what their Borate levels are...I've heard/read alot of "They're too high/Low/fine" but not much on "base" numbers to determine a "Standard" level/ratio...
The numbers I quoted came from my test kit as an interpretation of what I should be looking for... ...EDIT: Sorry I never did quote the numbers...Sea Chem recomends a Borate level of 1.5-2.0meq/l This particular Kit is a Sea Chem "Reef Status" and concidering the thoughts that Sea Chem buffers may be high in Borate Salts, I question if the levels presented are "skewed" to justify their product...
More "independant" information/confirmation needed to form an opinion/change things
 
squidd

squidd

Active Member

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I hope you reply (and others) because this needs a really good detailed debate.

OK, it's gonna be hard to have a really good discussion/debate if NO ONE REPLIES...:D
How about if I rephrase the question...
:help: HELP, My Borate level is 1.5meq/l...Is this good?? Whatever shall I do...?? :notsure:
 
adrian

adrian

Active Member
Borate??? When did this become an issue, please tell me I dont have to buy yet another test kit...
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
IMO there is a danger when using Alkalinity products that are very high in Borate.
This is the danger scenario as I see it:
Borate is used up very slowly in a reef aquarium while Carbonate is used relatively rapidly. Both of these show up combined on most ALK tests.
So, lets say in a tank heavily stocked with coral that you're using Calcium chloride to maintain Calcium and an ALK product heavy on the Borate to maintain ALK. Since the Carbonate will be used up much faster than the Borate you will be adding more and more Borate to your tank to maintain ALK balanced with Calcium. Eventually you'll get to the point where most of your Alkalinity is derived from Borate. Once you hit this point your ALK level will look great but Calcium will be unuseable because the Carbonate level is too low for calcification.
Any comments?
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
I can see why someone would want to maintain NSW levels of Borate but I can't understand why an Aquarium Chemical Company would assume people want to maintain Borate at 1000X NSW levels.
 
overanalyzer

overanalyzer

Active Member

Originally posted by Bang Guy
c - Most hobbiests have absolutely no idea what their Borate levels are.
d - Wild reefs have huge PH fluctuations.

Totally Agree....
OK on the last point "I can see why someone would want to maintain NSW levels of Borate but I can't understand why an Aquarium Chemical Company would assume people want to maintain Borate at 1000X NSW levels."
I think most people are totally unawareof how close or far off their tank water is compared to NSW.
So:
Borate helps to buffer PH
Calcium Carbonate is used up at a greater rate
Alk. tests measurement combines Borate and Calcium Carbonate together (or more specifically these to items are often overlooked because our Alk numbers look good).
Logically then borate will eventually be at a much higher number then desired - this of course will fluctuate based on water changes (right)??
Just curious - hate dealing with chemistry questions ...
 
squidd

squidd

Active Member
I gotta quit my job, I'm missing out on all the good discussion. :yes:
Just tested my "Reef Crystals" borate 0.3 meq/l @ 35ppt sg.
So Borate isn't coming from there (I would assume IO and most salts to be about the same)...
Unless it's a "build up" from carbonate usage as Bang said...
But more likely from the borate salts in the buffers.
So it's not doing "anything benificial" and Holmes-Farley sees no reason to add it...(although he wasn't too concerned about "removing" it either)...and in too high a concentration it throws off Alk readings...So it's probably a good idea to monitor/lower it to at least closer to NSW levels...
Unless there is something Sea Chem (and others) see as "benificial"
Does anyone have a "line" to Sea Chem to ask?? (or Kents)
I saw a list of buffers that were high and low on borates (Kents Superbuff dkh was on the high side) I'll have to dig that up and post it, and "possiably" switch to a lower concentration...
 
squidd

squidd

Active Member

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I can see why someone would want to maintain NSW levels of Borate but I can't understand why an Aquarium Chemical Company would assume people want to maintain Borate at 1000X NSW levels.
Actually they're only pushing a 10X over NSW level.
And we push Alk and Calcium over NSW levels all the time...??
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by Squidd
Actually they're only pushing a 10X over NSW level.
Glad someone's paying attention :cheer:
 
squidd

squidd

Active Member
Received 1/14/04...
Several reefers and I have been discussing the need of borate in reef tanks.
>
>As you "add" borate salts to your buffers and salt mixes we were
>wondering WHY?
>
>What do you see as the benefits of raised borate levels in a reef tank...
Borate has two primary advantages. 1)Borate is a source of buffering
alkalinity that unlike carbonates/bicarbonates will not be rapidly
removed through routes unrelated to buffering. Carbonate loss occurs
through biological utilization (and atmospheric equilibration to a
lesser extent) in addition to the loss that normally occurs through
its contributino to buffering. None of this is "bad", this is simply
how carbonates are supposed to function, but in a closed system like
an aquarium there is a greater risk of reaching a dangerously low
level of buffering capacity (as opposed to an open system like the
ocean). Borate alkalinity provides that "safety net", so even if all
of the carbonate alkalinity were depleted, there would still be
borate alkalinity functioning to prevent a disaster.
The second advantage in a reef system is that borate is involved in
competitive ion pairing with calcium. This has an overall net effect
of increasing the calcium stability in the system in comparison to a
system that had 0 borate and had 100% carbonate alkalinity. This
helps prevent precipitative loss of calcium as calcium carbonate as
well as allowing one to maintain a higher level of calcium (if they
so desire, i.e. one can go higher with less risk of calcium carbonate
precipitative loss).
>
>What are the recomended levels to maintain...
Overall we recommend 4-5 meq/L of alkalinity with borate comprising
1-1.5 meq/L of that, so you're right on target...
>
>Are there any drawbacks to raised borate levels (other than "skewed"
>carbonate Alk readings)...
None that we are aware of.
>
>My levels are sg.35ppt,Calcium 450,Mag 1320, Alk 4.5meq/l of which
>1.5meq/l is borate
>
>Are they good/low/high...recomendations...?
These are good.
>
>I used Reef Status kits to obtain levels...
>
>Thanks in advance for a quick reply.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
squidd

squidd

Active Member

Borate has two primary advantages... in a closed system like
an aquarium there is a greater risk of reaching a dangerously low
level of buffering capacity (as opposed to an open system like the
ocean). Borate alkalinity provides that "safety net", so even if all
of the carbonate alkalinity were depleted, there would still be
borate alkalinity functioning to prevent a disaster.
IE: pH stability
The second advantage in a reef system is that borate is involved in
competitive ion pairing with calcium. This has an overall net effect
of increasing the calcium stability in the system in comparison to a
system that had 0 borate and had 100% carbonate alkalinity. This
helps prevent precipitative loss of calcium as calcium carbonate as
well as allowing one to maintain a higher level of calcium (if they
so desire, i.e. one can go higher with less risk of calcium carbonate
precipitative loss).
Looks like a couple good "points" for elevated Borate levels...:thinking:
 
007

007

Active Member
yeah it sounds fantastic! But they could be totally lying and I would never know . . . :rolleyes:
 
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