WARNING: Grounding Devices
- Thread starter mudplayerx
- Start date
my way
Active Member
That was a great topic that I bet most people would have never known, I know I did'nt . I had a ground probe on a 150 a long time ago. The directions said to hook it to the screw that holds the outlet plate on, which I did but the wiring was so messed up in that old house that it actually leaked a very small amount of electricty into the tank. Scared the you know what out of me when I felt that little tingle.
acrylic51
Active Member
TurningTim is exactly right about the GFCI outlets.....They are prone to failure very often.....Both my brother in laws own their own electrical business and it's not uncommon to see them trip.....And if they aren't wired correctly or if you don't have a good ground they are useless anyways......It's just easier to do at the box, and they should be tested regularly to make sure they are functioning properly..... I had my house built 6 years ago and needless to say when we did the final walk through we found that the GFCI outlet in the bathroom in the family room was junk from the get go, and if you have them wired together, if one trips it trips the rest!!!!!! :notsure:
Again I'm not a fan of the outlets themselves, but do recommend GFCI breakers...Will cost you alittle more in the begininng, but well worth the extra cash and not as many problems with the breakers themselves.
Again I'm not a fan of the outlets themselves, but do recommend GFCI breakers...Will cost you alittle more in the begininng, but well worth the extra cash and not as many problems with the breakers themselves.
jonnywater
Member
So let me get this straight. I would need to be touching something that has stray voltage (hang on skimmer, light, heater, HOB filter, powerheads AND have my other arm submerged in the tank for this to occur? Why would someone do that in the first place. I can understand if you are reaching to adjust a heater or powerhead with both hands in the tank, but why would you touch your light and stick your other arm in the tank? Maybe I am missing something though.
I guess what you are saying though is that IF this was to occur, you had your right hand on the light and it was releasing stray voltage, and you stuck your other arm in the tank - that IF it started to electrocute you, that the grounding probe would sense it and pop the breaker before it killed you?
Or are you saying that if you accidently are like reaching for something in the tank and your shoulder brushes against your light, that it could electrocute you? I dont get it. I do see a problem with the breakers though. I am pushing around....ohhhhhh say 600 watts through my entire surge protector, which in turn is plugged in to a regular wall outlet with the grounding probe right above it. Wouldnt it automatically shut the breaker (GFIC) off in the wall outlet just because of the amount of watts?
I guess what you are saying though is that IF this was to occur, you had your right hand on the light and it was releasing stray voltage, and you stuck your other arm in the tank - that IF it started to electrocute you, that the grounding probe would sense it and pop the breaker before it killed you?
Or are you saying that if you accidently are like reaching for something in the tank and your shoulder brushes against your light, that it could electrocute you? I dont get it. I do see a problem with the breakers though. I am pushing around....ohhhhhh say 600 watts through my entire surge protector, which in turn is plugged in to a regular wall outlet with the grounding probe right above it. Wouldnt it automatically shut the breaker (GFIC) off in the wall outlet just because of the amount of watts?
92protruck
Member
I would love to see someone that knows explain the relationship btwn grounding probes and GFCI. The article referenced by Mudd apparently says you need a GFCI if you use a grounding probe or you could be worse off? I don't understand the relationship after having spent several hundred bucks on my electric to cure 50 volts in my tank. I believe the GFCI will stop the flow of electricity when it senses a differential in the current btwn the hot and nuetral, i.e when a hair dryer is on and falls in the bathtub or your lights while on fall in the tank. It will stop power when there is a dead short btwn hot and nuetral to save your butt. On the other hand, it has been my experiance that stray voltage/EMI/EMF/RF caused by power heads and flourescent lights have never killed anybody but fish. The stray voltage caused by power heads/lights is not the result of a dead short or hot shorting to nuetral. It wont hurt you as it carries virtually no current. Some argue that it doesn't hurt fish as it has no current just potential. Some, like me, argue that it does hurt fish. I can show anybody that wants to watch what happens to my fish when you unplug the ground probe. So, the ground probe bleeds off the stray voltage/EMI/EMF/RF (or whatever you prefer to call it) for the benefit of fish. I don't see how it can help or hurt you in the event of a GFCI tripping event but I would actually pay someone (and already have) to explain it to me.
jonnywater
Member
All in all I would just assume that an electical current is supposed to stay consistant. If a surge happens (IE you dropping your light into the water and reaching in to grab it without unplugging it, LOL). That it would cause a MASSIVE surge and blow the breaker before you keel over.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally Posted by 92ProTruck
I would love to see someone that knows explain the relationship btwn grounding probes and GFCI.
GFCI does not detect all shorts. It will detect a difference between what goes out and what comes back. If less comes back that what's going out it will shut off so fast that nothing will be harmed. It can't detect a short where the electricity takes an unintended path but still comes back through the circuit.
Example:
You are wearing running shoes and standing on a hardwood floor. You have your lighting system in your hands, one hand at each end, and you forgot to unplug it. You accidently drop one end in the water and while grabbing the other end you accidently put your thumb in the empty bulb socket.
Without grounding probe - Electricity travels from the hand in the water, through your chest, out your other hand where you're thumb is in the bulb socket, and back through the wall circuit. The GFCI doesn't trip because the circuit was completed. After 1/2 second or so the circuit breaker for the outlet detects a surge of power and trips. Too late, the electricity stopped your heart.
With Grounding Probe - Electricity travels from the light fixture, to the grounding probe, then to ground. The GFCI detects this almost immediately and trips. It will trip so fast that you won't even feel the slightest shock.
OK, the scenario is unlikely but with the combination of heaters, powerheads, lighting, etc. something could happen where your body completes the circuit if you don't have a grounding probe.
I would love to see someone that knows explain the relationship btwn grounding probes and GFCI.
GFCI does not detect all shorts. It will detect a difference between what goes out and what comes back. If less comes back that what's going out it will shut off so fast that nothing will be harmed. It can't detect a short where the electricity takes an unintended path but still comes back through the circuit.
Example:
You are wearing running shoes and standing on a hardwood floor. You have your lighting system in your hands, one hand at each end, and you forgot to unplug it. You accidently drop one end in the water and while grabbing the other end you accidently put your thumb in the empty bulb socket.
Without grounding probe - Electricity travels from the hand in the water, through your chest, out your other hand where you're thumb is in the bulb socket, and back through the wall circuit. The GFCI doesn't trip because the circuit was completed. After 1/2 second or so the circuit breaker for the outlet detects a surge of power and trips. Too late, the electricity stopped your heart.
With Grounding Probe - Electricity travels from the light fixture, to the grounding probe, then to ground. The GFCI detects this almost immediately and trips. It will trip so fast that you won't even feel the slightest shock.
OK, the scenario is unlikely but with the combination of heaters, powerheads, lighting, etc. something could happen where your body completes the circuit if you don't have a grounding probe.
tinmanny
Member
You can buy a GFCI Circut Breaker just like the ones used for swiming pool power and ther in turn protect the entire circut with all of the plug adapters that we end up adding.
The breaker is at the power source and there fore much better even than GFCI outlets
Just so you all know how they work Here is the instructors verson of a gfci
These also work to help you by not over loading your home wireing
G ground
F Fault
C circut
I interuptor
Measures volts supply and return and at 5mili volts difference of supply to return it will trip in less than 1/40th of a second
Manny
The breaker is at the power source and there fore much better even than GFCI outlets
Just so you all know how they work Here is the instructors verson of a gfci
These also work to help you by not over loading your home wireing
G ground
F Fault
C circut
I interuptor
Measures volts supply and return and at 5mili volts difference of supply to return it will trip in less than 1/40th of a second
Manny
pfitz44
Active Member
Bang-If a GFICB is used at the electrical box, it will detect short circuits-that is what a circuit breaker is designed to do. They are made to stop fires! The fires come from BOTH overcurrent and short circuits. Best bet-put a GFICB in the breaker box... There pretty easy to install. However, if you feel scared working on live electricity, then DON'T DO IT! Call a profesional, or a friend to get it done. Just remember foks, Electricity is nothing to fool around with. It wont say sorry to you while you are laying on the floor dead.
mudplayerx
Active Member
Why a ground with no GFIC is worse than no ground/GFIC at all:
If you have a ground in the tank with a GFIC, you get a slight shock, the electricity passes through your body and most likely exits out from the soles of your feet. The GFIC shuts the power off.
If you have a ground in the tank with no GFIC, the electricity passes into one arm, across your chest, through your other arm into the water and completes the circuit by going to the ground. By the time your circuit breaker pops, your heart has probably stopped because you A- got a pretty continuous jolt of electricity, B- The electricity traveled right across your heart.
Johnnywater...it is pretty common, especially with canopy-style lighting. I have been shocked numerous times by my freshwater tanks (flourescent canopies are designed really poorly in regards to safety). If the canopy gets any moisture in the ventilation slits and this moisture leads to a pool or drips of water on the canopy casing...you get shocked.
I'm not sure why I only recieved small, unpleasant shocks while messing with my freshwater tanks, but thank God lol. If you start feeling nausiated while cleaning your tank... take it from me and STOP! You are getting low doses of electrocution.
If you have a ground in the tank with a GFIC, you get a slight shock, the electricity passes through your body and most likely exits out from the soles of your feet. The GFIC shuts the power off.
If you have a ground in the tank with no GFIC, the electricity passes into one arm, across your chest, through your other arm into the water and completes the circuit by going to the ground. By the time your circuit breaker pops, your heart has probably stopped because you A- got a pretty continuous jolt of electricity, B- The electricity traveled right across your heart.
Johnnywater...it is pretty common, especially with canopy-style lighting. I have been shocked numerous times by my freshwater tanks (flourescent canopies are designed really poorly in regards to safety). If the canopy gets any moisture in the ventilation slits and this moisture leads to a pool or drips of water on the canopy casing...you get shocked.
I'm not sure why I only recieved small, unpleasant shocks while messing with my freshwater tanks, but thank God lol. If you start feeling nausiated while cleaning your tank... take it from me and STOP! You are getting low doses of electrocution.
pontius
Active Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
I've seen a pic of the Coralife after it caused a fire to destroy a home on another site.....Something I wouldn't even look at after seeing those pics......
I found that thread and read all 5 pages of it. Very worrisome to say the least. but I have some questions. (1) are there other stories of this particular product causing fires, or is this the only one? I have used this same powerstrip for over a year and a half and have never had problems. from reading the thread, there is no evidence to show that it actually WASN'T user error.....the aquarist had the strip under the tank, where saltwater and/or salt creep could have gotten into it. Is this a common problem with this product, or is this incident one out of tens of thousands? If it were a common problem, I can't imagine a company would continue to market the product. (2) if it IS a problem with the product, what is a safer alternative? this timer has worked 100times better than the cheap timers from Wal-Mart. and if the powerstrips and timers from HD or Lowe's work better, which ones?
I've seen a pic of the Coralife after it caused a fire to destroy a home on another site.....Something I wouldn't even look at after seeing those pics......
I found that thread and read all 5 pages of it. Very worrisome to say the least. but I have some questions. (1) are there other stories of this particular product causing fires, or is this the only one? I have used this same powerstrip for over a year and a half and have never had problems. from reading the thread, there is no evidence to show that it actually WASN'T user error.....the aquarist had the strip under the tank, where saltwater and/or salt creep could have gotten into it. Is this a common problem with this product, or is this incident one out of tens of thousands? If it were a common problem, I can't imagine a company would continue to market the product. (2) if it IS a problem with the product, what is a safer alternative? this timer has worked 100times better than the cheap timers from Wal-Mart. and if the powerstrips and timers from HD or Lowe's work better, which ones?
tinmanny
Member
People One thing that should be stressed here is electricity is unforgiving and as much as it has been said it is more dangerous than we would like to believe. Shocks have some long term affects we never even think about BE CAREFULL. Also one thing that I teach is that a circut breaker will not protect you at all ever. A breaker is happy to let you fry till you are crisp
as long as you are only drawing the rated amps, so if you get caught with a 20amp circut you will fry untill you are crisp or the amps exceed 20 and you do not always get knocked away
that is a muscular reflex that does not often occure in lower amperage your extencer muscles must be in the right position to get ejected. Only GFCI's can be of any help in preventing this from happening and you should test it often if you mount it under the tank due to salt and corrosion do not install and forget someday it will bite you.
USE CAUTION PLEASE
Manny
USE CAUTION PLEASE
Manny