Water boarding---for or against?

bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2508287
See, I don't get the torture aspect.
If you tied someone down to a chair and made them watch a scary movie would you be torturing them? Waterboarding does no physical harm; it scares them.
I don't know. Clearly it is unpleasant as it works. But, to me, torture is something that actually inflicts physical injury or damage.
I completely understand your opinion, I just don't share it. Someone could make a case that the death penalty is torture. I'm not against the death penalty though. Maybe I'm a hypocrit.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I agree that torture isn't moral, and I do view this as torture, though certainly not to the extent that other forms of torture are. I am totally against the indiscriminate torture of any prisoners (ie: . Abu Ghraib) There are many who are just grunts in the greater scheme of things and not treating them by the standard of Geneva Convention is just wrong.
However, what to do when there is someone who has vital info regarding something that will result in many lives lost if you don't get the info? Should many innocent people die because we take the high road as a society? It is really a very slippery slope. There are a lot of nasty things that happen in war. If all bets are off with our enemy, who has an anything goes attitude, and our own morality is viewed as weakness, I think someone has to make the decision about priorities in some instances. Is it moral to torture someone? Is it moral not to do it and the result is that many will die? Slipper slopes here we go.
Is there such a thing that as a moral society doing what needs to be done, even when what needs to be done is not moral, is ok? I do believe that our society needs to set the standards. Many believe capital punishment is immoral, even other nations maintain this. Does that make us immoral? We set our own standards to live by. In this War Against Terror, I strongly believe that a whole new set of standards are needed. We risk our own society to play by the old rulebook. Our rulebook needs to balance our morality with the need to eliminate those that threaten the whole world.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2508366
I agree that torture isn't moral, and I do view this as torture, though certainly not to the extent that other forms of torture are. I am totally against the indiscriminate torture of any prisoners (ie: . Abu Ghraib) There are many who are just grunts in the greater scheme of things and not treating them by the standard of Geneva Convention is just wrong.
However, what to do when there is someone who has vital info regarding something that will result in many lives lost if you don't get the info? Should many innocent people die because we take the high road as a society? It is really a very slippery slope. There are a lot of nasty things that happen in war. If all bets are off with our enemy, who has an anything goes attitude, and our own morality is viewed as weakness, I think someone has to make the decision about priorities in some instances. Is it moral to torture someone? Is it moral not to do it and the result is that many will die? Slipper slopes here we go.
Is there such a thing that as a moral society doing what needs to be done, even when what needs to be done is not moral, is ok? I do believe that our society needs to set the standards. Many believe capital punishment is immoral, even other nations maintain this. Does that make us immoral? We set our own standards to live by. In this War Against Terror, I strongly believe that a whole new set of standards are needed. We risk our own society to play by the old rulebook. Our rulebook needs to balance our morality with the need to eliminate those that threaten the whole world.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2508360
I completely understand your opinion, I just don't share it. Someone could make a case that the death penalty is torture. I'm not against the death penalty though. Maybe I'm a hypocrit.

Good point. I suppose we need to define "torture".
I want to make it clear, I'm not for water boarding or coercing the average prisoner. My opinion, though, is the big boys who are the decision makers are fair game to be politely coerced.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2508366
I agree that torture isn't moral, and I do view this as torture, though certainly not to the extent that other forms of torture are. I am totally against the indiscriminate torture of any prisoners (ie: . Abu Ghraib) There are many who are just grunts in the greater scheme of things and not treating them by the standard of Geneva Convention is just wrong.
However, what to do when there is someone who has vital info regarding something that will result in many lives lost if you don't get the info? Should many innocent people die because we take the high road as a society? It is really a very slippery slope. There are a lot of nasty things that happen in war. If all bets are off with our enemy, who has an anything goes attitude, and our own morality is viewed as weakness, I think someone has to make the decision about priorities in some instances. Is it moral to torture someone? Is it moral not to do it and the result is that many will die? Slipper slopes here we go.
Is there such a thing that as a moral society doing what needs to be done, even when what needs to be done is not moral, is ok? I do believe that our society needs to set the standards. Many believe capital punishment is immoral, even other nations maintain this. Does that make us immoral? We set our own standards to live by. In this War Against Terror, I strongly believe that a whole new set of standards are needed. We risk our own society to play by the old rulebook. Our rulebook needs to balance our morality with the need to eliminate those that threaten the whole world.
Well said.
 
groupergenius

groupergenius

Active Member
I approve of waterboarding to obtain vital information. Whether or not it's on an Al Queda operative.
Example. Police capture a member of a kidnapping plot. In order to find the victim and/or other perpetraters.....waterboard them.
As long as the practice doesn't get abused.
 
salty blues

salty blues

Active Member
Related political observation: The Dems never cease to disappoint. House speaker Pelosi says she will work hard to overturn Bush's veto. You know, she also works hard for abortion rights so innocent human lives may be brutally taken, yet she's worried about waterboarding a freakin' terrorist to defend the security of this country. Truly mind boggling.
 
suzy

suzy

Member
Word. You guys are so right. What were those DAs thinking when we helped write the Geneva rules in the first place? I am tired of being the good guys. We should stick toothpicks under their fingernails and hold their eyeballs open and spray them with pepperspray.
Did anyone see the movie Rendition? It was this completely fabricated BS movie made by fanatic left wing wackos.
I think we should be just as fanatic, evil and vile as our enemies. Our soldiers should all be issued a suicide pill in case they get caught off guard.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Yeah, Hollywood only makes movies based on facts

How are all the US prisoners of war being treated over there?
 
suzy

suzy

Member
We should make them drink urine and eat feces. Then, when and if they get home to their families, they will scare them so bad, they will want to help us. Winning the hearts and minds one evil terrorist family at a time.
I know what you mean about those liberal commie movies. Really, we should water board them too.
 
itom37

itom37

Member
Originally Posted by salty blues
http:///forum/post/2508248
So, do you think waterboarding equates with beheading?
You're rather... imaginative? I don't think beheading is torture, for one thing. It's brutal murder, but not torture. I think the whole argument that waterboarding is not torture is pathetic. It's an attempt to avoid the application of a label most people find morally indigestible to something that our country does and defends. It's torture, let's not do it.
 
salty blues

salty blues

Active Member
Originally Posted by itom37
http:///forum/post/2508881
You're rather... imaginative? I don't think beheading is torture, for one thing. It's brutal murder, but not torture. I think the whole argument that waterboarding is not torture is pathetic. It's an attempt to avoid the application of a label most people find morally indigestible to something that our country does and defends. It's torture, let's not do it.
It is not torture, dude. As 1journeyman so aptly stated, it is dang scary, but not torture. Friday the 13th is a dang scary movie. But is it torture? Come on.
 
itom37

itom37

Member
Originally Posted by salty blues
http:///forum/post/2508890
It is not torture, dude. As 1journeyman so aptly stated, it is dang scary, but not torture. Friday the 13th is a dang scary movie. But is it torture? Come on.

In the spirit of your first comment against my assertion that waterboarding is torture, you are equating watching a scary movie with being waterboarded... which is clearly an apt comparison.

Isn't the very nature of torture that it causes fear? Why must physical injury be a part of it? I guess it depends on what definition you use out of the dictionary, 1 or 2... But suppose we inflicted impermanent, non-lethal physical injury... what would be wrong with that, if waterboarding is ok? What if we beat them in the face with a sack of oranges? Wouldn't leave a mark, wouldn't kill them, and would be scary, yet this seems like physical injury (i'm assuming this is one of your criteria for torture) but being drenched in the face with water (potentially more lethal than other forms of torture, assuming you make the mistake of breathing your "interrogation", is A-ok. So glad we're not erring on the side of caution on this cut and dry issue of morals.
 
salty blues

salty blues

Active Member
Originally Posted by itom37
http:///forum/post/2508930
In the spirit of your first comment against my assertion that waterboarding is torture, you are equating watching a scary movie with being waterboarded... which is clearly an apt comparison.

Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing now but consider that some of our own miltary people undergo this procedure as a part of interrogation techniques training. Surely we're not torturing our own people.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Oath of Office (military):
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance tot he same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.
Torture is against our Constitution, the same Constitution that every servicemember swears to uphold.
So, the only question is about wether or not waterboarding is torture. If it's not torture then there is no Constitutional issue with using it to obtain information.
I've seen waterboarding in a "training" environment. To me it is clearly torture. It's a lot more than just scarey or uncomfortable. It's no different than dunking someone's head underwater and pulling them up to breath for a few seconds just before they drown and doing this over and over.
 
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