water change

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
bob - you are still just reaching .... I wish you luck but please stop advocating your system. And just to be clear - my tank has never looked like this:
Oh you mean your tank was all covered with algae?
It was a fish only tank. It is not supposed to look like a reef system.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by searcher
Bob, how about adding the following warning or something similar to your posts.
"Warning, my reefkeeping methods are not considered standard. Please do thorough research before making any changes to your tank."
Personally, I'm skeptical about advise my best friends give me. I would never run out and do something because a stranger on the internet told me to do it. That's just common sense. But it seems like that's the big fear on this site.
Why not save yourself a little grief and qualify your statements.
Then everyone else should qualify their statements also.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
Searcher - my big fear is the guy who posts - hey can I keep three tangs in my 10 gallon tank and 15 people tell him no its not a good idea and one person says sure you can do it and so he takes one person's advice over the general consensus. Smart - no. Using common sense - no .... but hey if people using the internet had common sense then sites like www.snopes.com would not exist!!

Agreed with your example.
BTW your common sense or mine?

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by sammystingray
I'll never forget the time a new member posted about his kid dropping a penny in his reef...it was in there about 24 hours, and the first response was "hurry, get everything out, copper will kill all your corals".....
Sammy agreed. And don't forget the person who tore down his entire system to get rid of hair algae. Only to have it come back when they started it up again.
And yes tap water is different across the country. Filtering with plants can handle all the differences just like filtering mechanically with ro/do.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by wamp
If this does happen, they are in the wrong hobby. No, water changes do not cause a tank to crash unless there is something in the water.

Oh you mean like plants LOL.
Thats where RO units come in to play.
Actually RO units come before the water is added to the system
Also, if I wanted a planted tank, I would have one. But I don't. I want a reef tank. I want corals not algea growing all over the tank. Not many people do. So, advising someone to throw algea in a tank that can quickly spread and become more of a problem is not the answer. Perhaps a refugium where the rate can somewhat be controlled is.

Then set up a refugium.
...
I know you really believe in what you are saying but the fact is, you are alone in this theroy..
Then you have not looked far enough.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
I hope the above clarified this. I also feel this is further evidence you have never operated a natural, balanced tank. If you had, your mind would not be boggled.
To take a dissolveable solution that is meant to go through a chemical breakdown process, including vigours mixing, and just dumping it into your live environment is mind boggling. In order for the solution to be balanced it needsx to be dissolved and broken down before adding to an ecosystem. This means you are subjecting your tank to a regular dose of harsh chemical release/reactions everytime you just dump in salt. I see nothing natural or balanced about this.
Lets take a common example. Chlorine in a pool. If you ingested a lump of chlorine and a glass of water you would suffer sever checmical burns. If you ingested a glass full of pool water which was properly treated with chlorine you'd get nothing more than a gross taste and a possible upset stomach.
When you dump salt into the tank - whatever is in the path of the salt takes a direct hit from that chemical reaction.
I tell you what - so far the proof is in the pudding. Your algea only tank with a sad little yellow tang is pathetic. Your reef tank is the second worst I have ever seen.
Your method wins on the following points:
1. Cheapest
2. Produces the ugliest tank
3. Contrary to the most followed procedures for producing a beatufiul tank.
As long as you are OK with that then fine .... but please let people know that your theories produce hideous algea invested, poor water quality tanks.
Also - common sense is common sense.

 

[beaslbob]

I guess the thread has gone on long enough. Looking a basic general operation ideas this is what emerges to me. Bottom line is that ya'all seem to think the only way to establish a tank is to remove the bad stuff before it gets in to begin with. the natural balanced approach is to control the bad stuff after it is in the water. And because I do the later the result is low to no maintenance at very inexpensive prices. Not everyone has my resources for a tank. By using the natrual balanced approach even the teenager can afford a system using "paper route and shoe shine money".

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
I guess the thread has gone on long enough. Looking a basic general operation ideas this is what emerges to me. Bottom line is that ya'all seem to think the only way to establish a tank is to remove the bad stuff before it gets in to begin with.
No - the general idea is to remove the harmful stuff before it gets into the tank (pure water). Use as many natural resources as possible to control the harmful stuff that is part of a normal tank (sand that is seeded to become live, LR or popurouse base rock that can become live, refugium with some sort of pollutant transfer item - macro algea, xenia, some people even talk about aiptasia refugiums - as long as it is hidden and in a controllable place. Water changes to export polluted water and repleinsh trace elements.)
Then use mechanical filtration to supplement (skimmers, Cannister filters, HOB filters, even UV sterilizers where appropriate).
the natural balanced approach is to control the bad stuff after it is in the water. And because I do the later the result is low to no maintenance at very inexpensive prices.

Not everyone has my resources for a tank.
Plan and save. There are a lot of hobbies I wantto be involved in but you have to prioritze and choose. You can have an excellent tank with lots of DIY parts and set-ups. But if you don't have some money devoted to your hobby then you will not be able to go far into the SW realm.
By using the natrual balanced approach even the teenager can afford a system using "paper route and shoe shime money".
Are there even paper boys anymore?? And shoe shine boys?? Man I've not seen one in ages.
I do understand your point. I see systems that have thousands of dollars of gadgets hooked up and all kinds of fgancy filtration .... but in order to get a tank that is clean, clear and looking nice does not mean you need to have all of those items. You need to have high water quality and patience. If you have good water and rush things you will still not have a nice tank. And if you have patience and consistenly poor water quality you are hosed.

 

[broomer5]

I agree - this thread has gone on long enough.
The idea of trying to eliminate the "bad stuff" from entering the tankwater has always appealed to me.
I'm one that believes it's much easier to control something - if I can gain some control over the entire process - from beginning to end.
Using tapwater here where I live is unpredictable - and I would rather use RO/DI water on my marine tanks.
I do use dechlorinated tapwater on my 55 freshwater tank by the way. But I choose not to on my saltwater tanks.
Corals and saltwater fish are sensitive - very sensitive.
They are expensive as well.
I don't think that the only way to have a successful marine tank is by removing the bad stuff before it gets in the tank.
I just find that it makes more sense to me, even with my 18 gallon macro algae refugium - to make an effort to add just pure water for top offs.
That's what left the system - that's what I choose to add back.
As a side note ...
I let our dog outside to do her business.
She craps and pees all over the backyard.
That's where she spends a good deal of her time.
I can leave the stuff piled up, and eventually natural processes will take care of the wastes.
But I don't think it's a very nice place for her to spend her time. She runs around and plays out there.
So I remove the wastes from the equation with a shovel.
Likewise - I keep marine creatures in a box of saltwater.
Fish, corals and other inverts.
I remove what wastes and pollutants I can from their environment too. Macro algae can only do so much in my opinion.
Harvesting them does seem to work well for me so far.
I choose to take care of my tankwater throughout the entire process. From beginning to end. Eventually I feel it's necessary to remove some of it and replace it with new.
Partial routine water changes work well for me in that regards.

 

[overanalyzer]

nice dog analogy!

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
This means you are subjecting your tank to a regular dose of harsh chemical release/reactions everytime you just dump in salt. I see nothing natural or balanced about this.
You are absolutely right on all counts. I change all parameters by adding 1/50 or less new salt to my system every couple of months or so. Gee system doesn't seems to mind. And as i stated before, total equilibrium, ballancing or natural setups are impossible. Again it is a matter of degree.
...
I tell you what - so far the proof is in the pudding. Your algea only tank with a sad little yellow tang is pathetic. Your reef tank is the second worst I have ever seen.

They are the same tank and both have macros with a very happy yellow tang. Also now a couple of percs with anemone, royal gramma, plus a yellow clown gobie. And the BCS, green brittle, and two anemone crabs are still there also. Not to mention the all too slow corraline growth. Think I'll just let it continue and me and my wife are extremely happy with the results so far.
Your method wins on the following points:
1. Cheapest
2. Produces the ugliest tank
3. Contrary to the most followed procedures for producing a beatufiul tank.

the only difference is the no water changes and the use of tap water. I am sure those that do that consider their tanks beautiful.
As long as you are OK with that then fine .... but please let people know that your theories produce hideous algea invested, poor water quality tanks.

NItrates in 20g macro algae tank have been 0.0 for months. Nitrates in 55g display are now down to 10 ppm. You analysis is incorrect.
Also - common sense is common sense.
In otherwords only your common sense is common sense

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by broomer5
I agree - this thread has gone on long enough.
...
Macro algae can only do so much in my opinion.
Harvesting them does seem to work well for me so far.
I choose to take care of my tankwater throughout the entire process. From beginning to end. Eventually I feel it's necessary to remove some of it and replace it with new.
Partial routine water changes work well for me in that regards.
I understand completely. I respectifully submit that you don't know whether it is the plant life, the partial water changes, the RO/DI, skimmer or all the rest which is contributing the most to maintaining the system. But you sure get a great warm fuzzy by doing all those things. Until you have ran a system for 6 years with no water changes, you simply don't know how unnecssary they are. Until you have run a system (even freshwater) with only plants and no mechanical systems, you simply don't know how effective plants are. By setting up a balanced natural system where fish are providing for the plant life and the plant life is providing for the fish, the quality of the input water is meaningless. The key is establishing the plant life before anything else. But then you are robbed of the change of mixing water, doing water changes, emptying skimmer cups, doseing calc and buffers or dripping kalk, settting up and maintaining the RO/DI unit, and all those other warm fuzzy things.

 

[reefnut]

Bob , if this system is what your happy with everyone is fine with that. Not everyone wants a system like yours so again just let people know what your offering.

 

[sammystingray]

I'm actually starting to feel bad we are bashing Bob so much, but honestly, to me, the tank looks more like a freshwater tank. The trouble is that to add any fast growing macros means that you will either have to keep pulling it out, or you are now destined to ALWAYS have fish that eat the stuff, and Bob....not all fish will eat it.....most won't actually. As you may or may not know Bob.....I actually went a step further....for over a year...I had no filter at all....not a single one, just pumps for current. I also NEVER fed the six or so fish at all...they ate pods and algae. I NEVER did a single water change, or added a single chemical. And of course..I used tap...we have hard water, with no nitrates,and slight phosphates....the biggest trouble was the silicates...which all tap has. BTW.....how do you figure tapwater is more natural than RO? It sure doesn't taste like seawater. Anyway, my goal was a self sustaining tank.....I suppose it worked since nothing ever died, but I also diodn't PUSH my tactics on everyone else....I would tell newbies to get a skimmer even though I didn't use one...because I know it will help starting out....see what I mean? I did my own thing, talked about it once in awhile, but never tried to push it on new folks. I'm glad you like your tank, and that's the whole point of this all, but it obviously doesn't look like a reef tank.....not everyone even cares about "natural filtration" or even how the ecosystem works....such as you and I...............they just want a nice tank they can be proud of. I've been around the hobby for quite awhile now, and I will say that most any new folks who put the faster growing macros in their tank love it at first, but eventually after they see they can't stop it or get rid of it....they are not happy with it in the main tank.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
In otherwords only your common sense is common sense
Bob -Your logic is totally un-sound. It has been proven time and again and you come back everytime and twist your words (you an ultra-conservative right wing faith-healing, snake oil selling preacher on the side??)..... I have no more time for your poor advice and the fact you push it on everyone on the board. But I feel compelled to respond to the above statement.
The answer is yes - mine. Also yours, and everyone elses..... it is a majority rules kinda thing.
Dictionary definition:
common sense
NOUN: Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.
Common sense dictates you do not keep a loaded gun in your house where unsupervised children can get at it.
Common sense dictates that if you see a pile of dog crap you should not step in it.
Common sense dictates that you do not spend time outside in a rain storm
Common sense dictates that if your girlfriend wants you on Springer then it ain't good ....
Does everyone always use their common sense??Heck no ... or we would not have springer, we would not hear stories about children dead beacuase they were locked in their parents car ....
Common sense should also tell you that if several sharks are telling you to offer up facts and provide for some warnings onyour methods you might want to think about it ....