water change

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by ReefNut
This is the information age Bob, I can find out what pipes the houses in your area are using. and I might just to prove you wrong AGAIN.
I'll appreciate any input you have. I just looked at the pipes and they are pvc. Maybe that was just the cold water.
anyway not relevant. Even if they were copper the plants can still filter out the coper anyway.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
For the reasons I have stated many times before, never. For instance nitrates will never come down to 0.0 by waterchanges alone even with 0.0 nitrates in the input water. Weekly draining of water and adding new will never allow the system to reach an equilibrium. more posts on this board have reported tank crashes and lost livestock after a water change then crashes from not doing water changes. I don't intend to degrade my system with water changes and ro/di water.

Uhm - Please start bumping some threads where people have done a proper water change and had issues. I've seen lots of posts where people don't airate, buffer, measure PH or heat the water .... that is not really the water change ... that is the lack of proper attention .... HUGE Difference.
So your tank reaches an equilibrium by you throwing in a 1/2 cup of salt whenever scrappign the salt creep back in doesn't raise the salinity to the proper level?? Adding cold - un-airiated water straight from the tap allows the proper equilibrium to be established??
Using pure products in a mix does not degrade a system - it may dillute ... and in the case of an aquarium pure mixed salt water dillutes the built up pollutants ....
seriously the logic of your statement to have equilibrium and then posting earlier in this thread that you toss in a 1/2 cup of salt when you need to .... it boggles the mind ....

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
I am glad you agree that plant life does these things.
All you are doing by not emphasizing plant life is creating aquariums which are constantly having to be maintained, are never balanced and stable, and are much less complete ecosystems.
Bob I have a very stable - very low maintenance 20 gallon tank.
It has 1 small halimeda plant .... I never let it get beyond 3 or four stalks ...
I do a monthly water change and I drip fresh RO water .... I don't do any other maintenance except sit and enjoy it with my girls and drag the magnetic cleaner across it once in a while ....

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
I'll appreciate any input you have. I just looked at the pipes and they are pvc. Maybe that was just the cold water.
anyway not relevant. Even if they were copper the plants can still filter out the coper anyway.
Bob go up a few posts and answer broomer5's question please

 

[overanalyzer]

Still looking for a reliable truthful answer .....

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
OK I'll seperate this out so it is easier for you to read Bobo
I don't agree with you that they are the wunderkind of hte aquarium world. I said it was nice you were qualifying and that some of those mentioned would make nice additions to a tank ... notice - not a nice addition to every single tank out there .....
let me know if this is clear enough for you??
already got your point. And as a result you have to do much more maintenance on your tanks. That is your choice.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
Bob go up a few posts and answer broomer5's question please
ok

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
already got your point. And as a result you have to do much more maintenance on your tanks. That is your choice.
ON my well established 20 I do about 15 to 20 minutes a month??? how much trouble is that?? really?!?!?!?!?

 

[wamp]

I saw a post that called bob dumb. I would not call Bob dumb. I think he is a rather inteligent fellow. BUT... I think the methods he provides cannot be duplicated by "average" hobbiests. That may be where the problem is.
Truth is Bob, if your methods work for you, go for it. The whole point of everyone getting on you in here is that your methods (although they work for you) will not work for 99.9% of other hobbiests. Now, does that mean you should not be able to explain your opinion, nope. But it does mean that you ,as a true hobbiest, should no not to advise people new to the hobby that they should just rely on plants to clean there tank.
I really have no clue as to how your tanks have survived. I have been in this hobby and traveled all over the east coast and NEVER seen a tank as you describe that looks even remotely like mother nature.
So, all I ask, before you give out advice about how to raise a tank, think long and hard about the conciquences that it might have on somones opinion of the hobby.. Perhaps yor way takes a lot more knowhow than the excepted way and you have, we don't. And yes, if you kill a mushroom, your doing something wrong...
P.S. As far as your calcium raising, I can't believe it. I know you said that you have CC but that by itself will not raise the levels if it is being used. It would take a lot of CC and alot of CO2 to do that.. JMO.. Have a nice day..I'm Done...

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by broomer5
I was under the impression that copper is often used as a plant herbicide.

I don't know. I just know that the plants in my fresh and salt tanks do just fine.
bob would you please explain how a macro algae or marine plant "filters out" copper ?
I guess because they are plants. Must be the same osmosis process used to remove toxins from waste water and toxic waste sites. I speculate that in the process of consuming ammonia, nitrates and phosphates that copper and other heavy ions are trapped in the cells.
How much copper can a kilogram or algae remove ?
ppm ?
I give up how much? I given volumn of water with a bioload is constantly producing plant food. By contrast the system is not generating copper constantly. Therefore, the constantly being produced plant food is constantly feeding the plants which is constantly reducing the constantly reducing amount of copper. Geesh
My 20 g long went from 160 ppm nitrates to 0.0 in three weeks. (A quaranteed fish dies in the tank and was in the tank for 3 days while I was on vacation). That was when the test kit was new. But even assuming the test was reading 10 times too high that is 16 ppm consumed on three weeks. By contrast and for reference the huntsville water authority reports 0-.2ppm copper. even assuming a 10 times increase through the copper pipes that is only 2.0 ppm. So even with extremely conservative (bordering a rediculous) assumptions, I have faith the plants will filter sufficient amounts of copper. I also have faith that adding a gallon/day of that water to my 55g will also be sufficiently low on copper to support any aquarium.
BTW Several sources report the specific filtering out of heavy ions like copper. Including Bob Fenner's site.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
ON my well established 20 I do about 15 to 20 minutes a month??? how much trouble is that?? really?!?!?!?!?
I presume that by well established you mean like a year or two. I also presume that you are not including the time it takes to generate the RO/DI water. And I believe that after you get things all set up, all the mechanical stuff adjusted, wait for your DSB and LR to kick in, then you can build up to only 15-20 minutes to make up the saltwater and conduct the water changes.
By contrast my Fw tanks take three hours for initial setup. Then 3 minutes of maintence per week. From day one! Because of the refugium my salt takes longer. Bout 1/2 hour or so per week.

 

[beaslbob]

thanks wamp.
Be assured I already have thought long and hard about the consequences especially for new hobbiests. Just remember "my" methods on this board when someone has just had a tank crash, lost a fish, is having algae problems, or is complaining about spending $1000.00 and doesn't have a single fish yet. Water changes and the lack of plant life can cause all those problems.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
Bob I have a very stable - very low maintenance 20 gallon tank.
It has 1 small halimeda plant .... I never let it get beyond 3 or four stalks ...
I do a monthly water change and I drip fresh RO water .... I don't do any other maintenance except sit and enjoy it with my girls and drag the magnetic cleaner across it once in a while ....
Oh sorry. missed this.
See it works LOL

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by beaslbob
I presume that by well established you mean like a year or two. I also presume that you are not including the time it takes to generate the RO/DI water. And I believe that after you get things all set up, all the mechanical stuff adjusted, wait for your DSB and LR to kick in, then you can build up to only 15-20 minutes to make up the saltwater and conduct the water changes.
By contrast my Fw tanks take three hours for initial setup. Then 3 minutes of maintence per week. From day one! Because of the refugium my salt takes longer. Bout 1/2 hour or so per week.
My tank is only 10 months old. I just took my time and did it so that there would be very little problems and I would know what I was putting in my tank. so no - not even a year yet.
Uhm I did include the time to make up the water. It took me maybe 15 minutes to hook up the RO filter and put a rubbermiad trash can there to fill up. Aside from that I turn a switch and let it run for two days .... 15 gpd .... I usually don't have to spend more than 15 seconds doing that . so that 15 minutes of initial set-up could be figured in the initial set-up of the entire system and spread out over 10 months if you'd like.
Mechanical adjustments?? Took me about 10 - 20 minutes to adjust the tetratec to flow as I wanted to (short surges). Haven't touched it since the first month of set-up .... so not much time there either ....
Uhm Bob - fresh water is different then salt water and a FW tank should still cycle ... just saying. Not sure how a FW tank is germaine to this discussion.
My salt tank takes me about 15-20 minutes a month on maintenance - yours takes 30 minutes a week. Seriously - let me break it out for you:
5 minutes: siphon 5 gallons of RO water into container, add salt, air tube, heater. Let sit over night bubbling away.
5 minutes to test PH.
5 minutes to change filter pads and blow out powerhead intakes
4 minutes (1 minute weekly) to wipe down lights.
I spend way more time convincing my 5 year old to stop cleaning the glass with the magentic cleaner then doing any sort of maintence.
Bob - it is not that much work ... really.
My 140 the water change process set-up takes about the same amount of time - stopping the return pump and adding the water takes me a bout 15 to 20 more minutes. I've only done a water change twice on it ... but I'm betting I can get more efficient @ that process as well.

 

[overanalyzer]

bob - you are still just reaching .... I wish you luck but please stop advocating your system. And just to be clear - my tank has never looked like this:

 

[searcher]

Bob, how about adding the following warning or something similar to your posts.
"Warning, my reefkeeping methods are not considered standard. Please do thorough research before making any changes to your tank."
Personally, I'm skeptical about advise my best friends give me. I would never run out and do something because a stranger on the internet told me to do it. That's just common sense. But it seems like that's the big fear on this site.
Why not save yourself a little grief and qualify your statements.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by searcher
Personally, I'm skeptical about advise my best friends give me. I would never run out and do something because a stranger on the internet told me to do it. That's just common sense. But it seems like that's the big fear on this site.
Why not save yourself a little grief and qualify your statements.
Searcher - my big fear is the guy who posts - hey can I keep three tangs in my 10 gallon tank and 15 people tell him no its not a good idea and one person says sure you can do it and so he takes one person's advice over the general consensus. Smart - no. Using common sense - no .... but hey if people using the internet had common sense then sites like www.snopes.com would not exist!!

 

[sammystingray]

I'll never forget the time a new member posted about his kid dropping a penny in his reef...it was in there about 24 hours, and the first response was "hurry, get everything out, copper will kill all your corals".....the new guy listened even though the penny in there for twenty four hours wouldn't cause much harm....because of bad advice, he tore his entire tank apart and had everything in buckets before anyone could correct the first idiot......so yes, some people take advice as the gospel because they believe that people who sound sure, must be sure. Bobo, you have no idea how macros and copper work, so why bother talking about it? Common sense would lead me to believe that it was Broomers intention to prove this.....which he did. I beg you once again......just give some CERTAIN algaes when you advise people to use them.....seriously, how hard is that? In case you don't know it either, which you don't seem to, tapwater is different across this country....you have no idea how someones tap would test. Just seems you want to push your theories, and that's fine, but please have a little concern for others tanks. BTW, copper pipes are only usually even considered an issue in their first few years if it's hard water.......the inside of the pipes will form a coating and prevent any copper from getting in the water. Also, do you realize that the water company flushes the lines once a month or so....I wonder if you have any idea what they even use to flush them out with, and yes, it comes out your tap obviously.

 

[wamp]

or is complaining about spending $1000.00 and doesn't have a single fish yet. Water changes and the lack of plant life can cause all those problems.
If this does happen, they are in the wrong hobby. No, water changes do not cause a tank to crash unless there is something in the water. Thats where RO units come in to play.
Also, if I wanted a planted tank, I would have one. But I don't. I want a reef tank. I want corals not algea growing all over the tank. Not many people do. So, advising someone to throw algea in a tank that can quickly spread and become more of a problem is not the answer. Perhaps a refugium where the rate can somewhat be controlled is.
I am not, nor have I ever said, that some types of algea do not filter any part of the water. What I will say is that relying on the solely is not the right answer. I really think your intentions are good here but as I stated earlier, your method is not within the grasp of most....
I know you really believe in what you are saying but the fact is, you are alone in this theroy.. I have not read a single study to base your theroy on. I have, on the other hand, read plenty to negate yours. As far as the people you reffrence to. They may very well know about water systems but Marine Boliogists they are not. I have read about refugiums and other algea scrubbers, but your taking that way out of context. Most of these pre mentioned items also have LR, LS or other filtration methods in place also. I have not seen a system yet like you describe.
Ok, now I am done again...

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by overanalyzer
Uhm - Please start bumping some threads where people have done a proper water change and had issues. I've seen lots of posts where people don't airate, buffer, measure PH or heat the water .... that is not really the water change ... that is the lack of proper attention .... HUGE Difference.
Or even better yet, just don't do the water change to begin with. That way all those problems are completely avoided.
So your tank reaches an equilibrium by you throwing in a 1/2 cup of salt whenever scrappign the salt creep back in doesn't raise the salinity to the proper level?? Adding cold - un-airiated water straight from the tap allows the proper equilibrium to be established??
You are correct, total absolute equilbrium can never be reached. Tanks do evaporate after and food must be added. I just prefer to make 1/50 th changes in parameters than 1/10 changes. I feel that is much closer to equilibrium.

Using pure products in a mix does not degrade a system - it may dillute ... and in the case of an aquarium pure mixed salt water dillutes the built up pollutants ....

then you simply should to a 100% water change every day. that way the polutants will be completely diluted. I just prefer to let the system handle those polutants. That way water changes are never needed.
seriously the logic of your statement to have equilibrium and then posting earlier in this thread that you toss in a 1/2 cup of salt when you need to .... it boggles the mind ....
I hope the above clarified this. I also feel this is further evidence you have never operated a natural, balanced tank. If you had, your mind would not be boggled.