overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by Bek
Yes - Bek and Trkdoc and 2 people with one tank - such a happy couple.....in love with our tank and with each other
Always nice to share a hobby with the one you love!!
water change
- Thread starter bek
- Start date
Originally posted by Bek
Yes - Bek and Trkdoc and 2 people with one tank - such a happy couple.....in love with our tank and with each other
Always nice to share a hobby with the one you love!!
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by overanalyzer
Always nice to share a hobby with the one you love!!
Agree. do you to have to buddy breath in the tank?
Reef: sorry to hear you do not have a refigium nor do you have any corraling algae on your reef.
others. I am glad you have not had ICH or other parasites on your live rock. Further, any rock provides surface area for the biological filtration.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
I am glad you have not had ICH or other parasites on your live rock.
WHAT??? if you rinse your LR off or do a FW dip then you would not end up with SW Ick. By rinsing you would remove the adult capsules and get rid of the potential of ick. I am fairly certain that if you get ick it is because you intriduced a fish with ick without putting it into a Q tank.
Bob you get more and more unbelievable everytime I read your posts!!!!
Here is a cut and paste of what is Ick?
The disease is caused by a protozoan parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, and is very contagious. The parasites spend a portion of their life cycle embedded beneath the skin of the fish, where they feed from the body tissue. The white cyst in which they are enclosed gives the characteristic white spots. Adults emerge from these cysts and fall to the floor of the aquarium, where they multiply inside a protective capsule. Some time later, the capsule bursts, releasing hundreds of free-swimming infectious parasites which attach themselves to new hosts. Whitespot is often introduced with new fish which have not been quarantined. Outbreaks of whitespot often occur after fish have been exposed to cooler than normal temperatures.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Frank: Glad you liked this thread and I hope others did also.
Over: Glad you agree that live rock can spread ICH. Seems to me the freshwater dip would also kill off all the beneficial bacteria also. Don't you think it would be much better to allow the lr to run in a fishless tank for three weeks to allow the swamers to die off from lack of a host fish? And of course all those nasty hitchhikers people worry about. Maybe it's just better to use decorations which were not in the ocean to begin with. And then use the money saved to get a larger tank. Throw in some plants (refug or display) and three weeks later, have a balanced stable system already with 0.0 nitrates and phosphates.
Over: Glad you agree that live rock can spread ICH. Seems to me the freshwater dip would also kill off all the beneficial bacteria also. Don't you think it would be much better to allow the lr to run in a fishless tank for three weeks to allow the swamers to die off from lack of a host fish? And of course all those nasty hitchhikers people worry about. Maybe it's just better to use decorations which were not in the ocean to begin with. And then use the money saved to get a larger tank. Throw in some plants (refug or display) and three weeks later, have a balanced stable system already with 0.0 nitrates and phosphates.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
Frank: Glad you liked this thread and I hope others did also.
Over: Glad you agree that live rock can spread ICH. Seems to me the freshwater dip would also kill off all the beneficial bacteria also. Don't you think it would be much better to allow the lr to run in a fishless tank for three weeks to allow the swamers to die off from lack of a host fish? And of course all those nasty hitchhikers people worry about. Maybe it's just better to use decorations which were not in the ocean to begin with. And then use the money saved to get a larger tank. Throw in some plants (refug or display) and three weeks later, have a balanced stable system already with 0.0 nitrates and phosphates.
Do you even read things all the way through??
NO I do not agree live rock will spread ICK. Almost 100% of live rock is not shipped in water - just covered with wet newspaper. So unless the LR is cultured in a tank with Ick it will be ick free. Not sure how things work in your aprt of hte world but when people say:
"WHAT??? "
That is usually not a statement of agreeance.
Also - Ick tends to die off without a host and without a nice water volume.... so unless you have fish hiding in your LR then I would think that getting ick from LR is about the same percentages as being struck by lighting twice in a row ...
Rinsing live rock kills the bacteria?? WHAT???? Lets remember what bacteria is: bacteria are remarkably adaptable to diverse and rapidly changing environmental conditions including going from salt to fresh to no water environments. Aside from cockroaches and stupidity they are the hardest things to stamp out. So a FW rinse or dunk or soak would not kill the denytrifying bacteria....
lastly - I don't think frank was congratulating you in any sort of way... closer to making fun of you.
I go back to a statement I made earlier in this thread - you are either a troll or a moron......
See sadly this is in the nano section and your advice is much more disastrous in a smaller tank then in a larger tank ... therefore I feel compelled to keep an eye on this thread and the rubbish you continualy spout off ....
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
And I would not post the advice if I had not maintained a 10g salt tank for 6 years plus another 4 years before I moved it to a new city. No water changes, no ro/di, water, no LR, no ls, using tap water. If you do not have the experience in planted, balanced, natural aquariums then you simply can not understand. I didn't when I first started that. My first reaction is exactly yours and others with how could that possible work? After the first three weeks I was amazed at how well it worked. My same exact concerns you express here slowly eased over the next 2 years. After 30 years I am positive. I now have no worry that "my" methods are safe for any Nano tank or any newbie. At least they should have the option of knowing what they are.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
And I would not post the advice if I had not maintained a 10g salt tank for 6 years plus another 4 years before I moved it to a new city. No water changes, no ro/di, water, no LR, no ls, using tap water. If you do not have the experience in planted, balanced, natural aquariums then you simply can not understand. I didn't when I first started that. My first reaction is exactly yours and others with how could that possible work? After the first three weeks I was amazed at how well it worked. My same exact concerns you express here slowly eased over the next 2 years. After 30 years I am positive. I now have no worry that "my" methods are safe for any Nano tank or any newbie. At least they should have the option of knowing what they are.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!????
I kept a planted FW tank with gorgeous plants and animals for over 3 years before I had to tear it down to move. I changed the water in that tank.
Plain and simple your advice for a nano tank is out dated and just plain wrong.
Now - if you have a 10 gallon tank with only one fish in it and put some plants and some limestone rock in there then you could get away with it then sure. You'd have a fugly tank with one fish and a bunch of algea.
BUT - if you want a Reef tank then you need to be very cautious:
1. Most macro algea spread at a great rate of speed and can over take a tank with roots before the actual algea pokes its head up. (the acception being a lot of the "red" algeas)
2. Most soft corals will get choked out by algea - algea is a weed. It is akin to saying - hey plant some dandylions in your front yard to give you lawn some variety. Then fertilize those dandylions ....
3. Macro Algea will go sexual and pollute the tank with the gammetes is spreads throughotu the tank. This is disatrous in any tank but one with a small volume of water would see a near ELE (extinction level event).
4. You need to replenish trace elements that are not found in just ap water and top off water ... you can dose like crazy and test or you can do water changes.
5. You need to export nutrients that can not be taken up by your chemical, biological and mechanical filtration. The best way to do that is hte water change - the second best way to do that is ... uhm there is no other way .... biological filtration can not work.
6. Tap water in most parts of the country are barely fit for human consumption let alone adding to a delicate reef systems. Almost all ground water is allowed to contain traces of fertilizer and bug posion - do you want to add that to your tank to build up over time?
These are facts. I was in one LFS this weekend and there was someone there starting over totally because seh was advised to put some macro algeas in her main tank. She had to dry out sever large pieces of LR and start over. But the worst part was it went sexual on her while she was gone for one night .... and that killed everything in her tank. She is starting over in a 58 gallon tank .... could you image a clump of macro going sexual in a 10 gallon?? the water would be completely milky.
Bob - please don't take this the wrong way but your tanks are so ugly that I would be embarassed to post a picture of them let alone advocate for others to follow my methods. Actually take that how ever you will. Just please avoid telling people with nano tanks that no water changes and add macros will give them a beautiful reef .....
wamp
Active Member
I do have some serious questions...
Bob,
Do you use any additives? How do you replace salt that has evaporated..(Yes, it evaporates ie:Salt Creep) How is your calcium trending up? If there is copper in the water and you do nothing to get rid of it, where does it go? What do you do about the chlorine in the water?
P.S.
Bob - please don't take this the wrong way but your tanks are so ugly that I would be embarassed to post a picture of them let alone advocate for others to follow my methods
How is he supposed to tank that??
Bob,
Do you use any additives? How do you replace salt that has evaporated..(Yes, it evaporates ie:Salt Creep) How is your calcium trending up? If there is copper in the water and you do nothing to get rid of it, where does it go? What do you do about the chlorine in the water?
P.S.
Bob - please don't take this the wrong way but your tanks are so ugly that I would be embarassed to post a picture of them let alone advocate for others to follow my methods
How is he supposed to tank that??
sammystingray
Active Member
Bob....do you work with NASA and/or the military in Redstone?
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by wamp
How is he supposed to tank that??
the seond half of that statement covers it:
Actually take that how ever you will. Just please avoid telling people with nano tanks that no water changes and add(ing) macros will give them a beautiful reef .....
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by wamp
I do have some serious questions...
Bob,
Do you use any additives?
Not yet . I did use a litle baking soda to correct ph but that was over 8 month ago.
How do you replace salt that has evaporated..(Yes, it evaporates ie:Salt Creep)
Yes I do maintain the salinity. Creep is just put back in the tank. And I do have add about a half cup every two months or so if the sg has bumped down.
How is your calcium trending up?
My original test kit in 50ppm steps turned colors on the 300 ppm two weeks ago and last turned colors at the 350ppm step. A much better test kit tested the 400ppm sample with on then tested the tank at 360ppm. The substrait should buffer ph, calcium and magnesium. Additionally, the local water authority reports 50 ppm calcium. Plus the trickle filter in the refugium has CC in it along with lava landscaping rocks.
If there is copper in the water and you do nothing to get rid of it, where does it go?
It is filtered out by the plant life. Additionally, Tap water is specifically treated to vastly retard reaction with copper. plus most house pipes are now pvc not copper. Finally, the amout of copper entering the water is a function of the amount of time the water has been in contact with the copper. So simply running the cold water for 1 minute results in very low copper in the water.
What do you do about the chlorine in the water?
Basically nothing. Clorine is added to water to prevent bacteria growth. It is a gas and stays in the water as long as the water is in enclosed air tight containers such as your plumbing. Clorine disappates from water in a matter of hours is left in a container. Agitation increases the clorine escape rate. I have never stressed any fish by adding tap water directly to a tank. And my experience is in 6 different cities on the US so it is not just my current locality.
I do have some serious questions...
Bob,
Do you use any additives?
Not yet . I did use a litle baking soda to correct ph but that was over 8 month ago.
How do you replace salt that has evaporated..(Yes, it evaporates ie:Salt Creep)
Yes I do maintain the salinity. Creep is just put back in the tank. And I do have add about a half cup every two months or so if the sg has bumped down.
How is your calcium trending up?
My original test kit in 50ppm steps turned colors on the 300 ppm two weeks ago and last turned colors at the 350ppm step. A much better test kit tested the 400ppm sample with on then tested the tank at 360ppm. The substrait should buffer ph, calcium and magnesium. Additionally, the local water authority reports 50 ppm calcium. Plus the trickle filter in the refugium has CC in it along with lava landscaping rocks.
If there is copper in the water and you do nothing to get rid of it, where does it go?
It is filtered out by the plant life. Additionally, Tap water is specifically treated to vastly retard reaction with copper. plus most house pipes are now pvc not copper. Finally, the amout of copper entering the water is a function of the amount of time the water has been in contact with the copper. So simply running the cold water for 1 minute results in very low copper in the water.
What do you do about the chlorine in the water?
Basically nothing. Clorine is added to water to prevent bacteria growth. It is a gas and stays in the water as long as the water is in enclosed air tight containers such as your plumbing. Clorine disappates from water in a matter of hours is left in a container. Agitation increases the clorine escape rate. I have never stressed any fish by adding tap water directly to a tank. And my experience is in 6 different cities on the US so it is not just my current locality.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
It is filtered out by the plant life. Additionally, Tap water is specifically treated to vastly retard reaction with copper. plus most house pipes are now pvc not copper. Finally, the amout of copper entering the water is a function of the amount of time the water has been in contact with the copper. So simply running the cold water for 1 minute results in very low copper in the water.
1. Macro's don't absorb 100% of copper.
2. Water coming out of waster water and water treatment are through cast iron and copper pipes.
3. Most houses have PVC supply lines? Just helped a friend hook-up his ice maker in his brand spanking new house ... and I hooked the icemaker into the copper pipes.
EDIT
What is the chemical they use to retard the copper reaction? How exactly does that work (curious - want to make sure our drinking water filter is filtering that out).
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by overanalyzer
1. Macro's don't absorb 100% of copper.
they dont have too.
2. Water coming out of waster water and water treatment are through cast iron and copper pipes.
So?
3. Most houses have PVC supply lines? Just helped a friend hook-up his ice maker in his brand spanking new house ... and I hooked the icemaker into the copper pipes.
So?
EDIT
What is the chemical they use to retard the copper reaction? How exactly does that work (curious - want to make sure our drinking water filter is filtering that out).
Just talked to the engineering buddy again. Several things can but the one biggie appears to be the calcium. Another poster here stated that his local authority added phosphates. Again according to the engineer friend, if you take the opposite approach extremely pure water (RO/DI) is highly coorsive to copper. Basically, well water has many buffering agents.
Is there copper in tap water, yes. Do plants take it all out. NO. Do RO/DI units tank it all out? NO Does any amount of copper in the water degrade a reef tank? No. Do RO/DI units always work as advertised? No. Does tap water and plant life make outstanding reef tanks? Yes (reference this board post on the use of tap water at a Denver public aquarium)
Your freshwater planted tank. If your previous system was mechanically circulated and/or filtered, you conducted water changes, and/or you used processed water (even a declorinator) then you do not have experience in the system I described.
Anything less that 100% waterchange will not maintain the water in the as mixed state. The trends in trace elements will only slow down. And every time you change the water you will change everythign in the water. By allowing the system to buffer trace elements through not changing the water, an equilbrium will be reached where things are not changing.
It make no sense to me to take the calcified remains of sea creatures from the ocean (or tank) and sell it for $s/pound when the calcified remains of sea creatures are quarried in all large cites in the us (and world) and sold for $s/ton. And even worse to claim this is the reason we don't add plant live to our tanks.
1. Macro's don't absorb 100% of copper.
they dont have too.
2. Water coming out of waster water and water treatment are through cast iron and copper pipes.
So?
3. Most houses have PVC supply lines? Just helped a friend hook-up his ice maker in his brand spanking new house ... and I hooked the icemaker into the copper pipes.
So?
EDIT
What is the chemical they use to retard the copper reaction? How exactly does that work (curious - want to make sure our drinking water filter is filtering that out).
Just talked to the engineering buddy again. Several things can but the one biggie appears to be the calcium. Another poster here stated that his local authority added phosphates. Again according to the engineer friend, if you take the opposite approach extremely pure water (RO/DI) is highly coorsive to copper. Basically, well water has many buffering agents.
Is there copper in tap water, yes. Do plants take it all out. NO. Do RO/DI units tank it all out? NO Does any amount of copper in the water degrade a reef tank? No. Do RO/DI units always work as advertised? No. Does tap water and plant life make outstanding reef tanks? Yes (reference this board post on the use of tap water at a Denver public aquarium)
Your freshwater planted tank. If your previous system was mechanically circulated and/or filtered, you conducted water changes, and/or you used processed water (even a declorinator) then you do not have experience in the system I described.
Anything less that 100% waterchange will not maintain the water in the as mixed state. The trends in trace elements will only slow down. And every time you change the water you will change everythign in the water. By allowing the system to buffer trace elements through not changing the water, an equilbrium will be reached where things are not changing.
It make no sense to me to take the calcified remains of sea creatures from the ocean (or tank) and sell it for $s/pound when the calcified remains of sea creatures are quarried in all large cites in the us (and world) and sold for $s/ton. And even worse to claim this is the reason we don't add plant live to our tanks.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by ReefNut
Give up overanalyzer, your talking to someone not smart enough to grasp the concepts and someone that would rather spread half truths than to admit he's wrong.
I agree .... especially when for proof he points out that most homes no longer have copper points and when it is pointed out he is wrong all he says is "so?"
Also - I think he is sniffing jet fuel from his AF days becuase this paragrpah makes no sense:
"It make no sense to me to take the calcified remains of sea creatures from the ocean (or tank) and sell it for $s/pound when the calcified remains of sea creatures are quarried in all large cites in the us (and world) and sold for $s/ton. And even worse to claim this is the reason we don't add plant live to our tanks."
I think he may be talking about LR ... not sure why he thinks that live rocks pre-clude the inclusion of macro algea in the tank. I mean I hate to assume with bob but given what he has typed there I am not left with a lot of options. I mean I thought I was pretty specific as to why you would not want to add Macro's to a tank and not once did I mention the cost of LR. If not let me spell it out again:
1. Most macro algea spread at a great rate of speed and can over take a tank with roots before the actual algea pokes its head up. (the acception being a lot of the "red" algeas)
2. Most soft corals will get choked out by algea - algea is a weed. It is akin to saying - hey plant some dandylions in your front yard to give you lawn some variety. Then fertilize those dandylions ....
3. Macro Algea will go sexual and pollute the tank with the gammetes is spreads throughotu the tank. This is disatrous in any tank but one with a small volume of water would see a near ELE (extinction level event).
Yup - the cost of LR and its potential destruction could be a 4th reason .... but this hobby is far from cheap.
reefnut
Active Member
Originally posted by overanalyzer
I agree .... especially when for proof he points out that most homes no longer have copper points and when it is pointed out he is wrong all he says is "so?"
I've proved him wrong in several situations, each time it's shrugged off like no big deal. Just no winning with ##### people.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by FranknBerry
oh , man... tears in my eyes folks... oh - let me catch my breath....
Ever hear the term pissing in the breeze?
Where's that laughing smilie when you need it????
or the banging head against the wall graphic??