mebigloser
Member
I just love it when you guys argue, keeps my blood pumping...
Water Change
- Thread starter trigger78
- Start date
bang guy
Moderator
Originally posted by Trigger78
Anyone willing to get harped at for revealing there experience with a method of not doing 25 to 30% water changes on or throughout a month, please feel free to reply without my insults.
I've seen quite a few beautiful tanks that were maintained without water changes. Even Reef Tanks.
My concern is that I have never seen a successful tank that was started without water changed. I still feel it's for the advanced hobbiest.
Perhaps Beaslbob will prove me wrong.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by overanalyzer
Bob - go ahead and post some links or articles (please make sure you cite appropriately the sources). I have yet to find an article bakcing this philosophy
...
I missed a few days here so this is probably days behind. I did find this on the heavy metals.
Took a little research but Anthony Calfo reports:
Heavy metals and macroalgae 11/15/03
Bob (or whoever answers this)
{Anthony Calfo in your service}
First, I really, really like your web site. Great resource and I refer to it all the time.
{thanks kindly... do tell a friend}
to make the question short. Does macro algae and other marine plants filter out (absorbe, export or whatever)heavy metals?
{yes... heavily in some cases. Not uncommon though among plants and algae. You may recall industry using various planst (Hyacith) for doing the same. And what of the role of bog plants in wetlands and aquatic ecosystems? Huge role}
I especially like your pages on marine plants and thought they mentioned that marine plants also do some filtering out of heavy metals. If I missed that page could you provide me a link?
{I am not aware of that specific page... do simply use the google search tool from our home page wetwebmedia.com to toggle and seek your desired subjects please}
The reason I am asking is that I am constantly chatting with other saltwater keepers who just don't seem to get the importance of naturally balancing out the ecosystem using plants. Sure you need to look at the entire system but to me the single most important thing is to establish a thriving plant growth and then do the rest.
Bob Beasley
{indeed... and the most underated of all perhaps, turf algae}
If anyone is interested I can send the site and the total question and reaponse.beaslbob@aol.com
overanalyzer
Active Member
Bob: You state: The reason I am asking is that I am constantly chatting with other saltwater keepers who just don't seem to get the importance of naturally balancing out the ecosystem using plants.
I don't think anyone here is saying that ... what we are saying is that if you want a reef tank then you need to have that balanced eco-system outside of your main display. Seriously - Has anyone ever said that macro algea's should not be used?? Nope we all state they should be used in a refugium.
Also the other point we try to stress which you don't address with Anthony is your use of tap water. You feel as if your macro algea's will filter out all introduced heavy metals (by introduced I mean heavy metals not found in natural seawater to the exent they are found in tap water). Macro Algea's do filter out the heavey metals found in sea water ... but your tap water contains more trace metal elements then sea water.
If you are interested in Anthony's position on what type of water to use you might want to check out his coral prop. book where he specifically talks about using DI water .... I'll find the page number and post the quote if you are interested.
Lets review what I see as the facts (if these are not facts please provide me the proof they aren't):
1. Macro's good - used to help keep natural balances in seawater, good natural filters, need maintenance to ensure the elements they take up are not released (usually referred to as going sexual)
2. Macro's in display BAD - they can choke out corals, over run rocks and require regular maintenance.
3. Water gets polluted - even the best filters can't replenish all natural occuring trace elements and remove all the pollutants.
4. Tap Water contains elements that are not naturally occuring in seawater
5. Purified water mixed with a quality salt mix using the proper procedures most closely mimics natural seawater.
6. The HSP (Hobby Standard Practice) is to do partial water changes on a re-occuring basis.
Bob - thanks for the info from anthony - I too enjoy his website!
I don't think anyone here is saying that ... what we are saying is that if you want a reef tank then you need to have that balanced eco-system outside of your main display. Seriously - Has anyone ever said that macro algea's should not be used?? Nope we all state they should be used in a refugium.
Also the other point we try to stress which you don't address with Anthony is your use of tap water. You feel as if your macro algea's will filter out all introduced heavy metals (by introduced I mean heavy metals not found in natural seawater to the exent they are found in tap water). Macro Algea's do filter out the heavey metals found in sea water ... but your tap water contains more trace metal elements then sea water.
If you are interested in Anthony's position on what type of water to use you might want to check out his coral prop. book where he specifically talks about using DI water .... I'll find the page number and post the quote if you are interested.
Lets review what I see as the facts (if these are not facts please provide me the proof they aren't):
1. Macro's good - used to help keep natural balances in seawater, good natural filters, need maintenance to ensure the elements they take up are not released (usually referred to as going sexual)
2. Macro's in display BAD - they can choke out corals, over run rocks and require regular maintenance.
3. Water gets polluted - even the best filters can't replenish all natural occuring trace elements and remove all the pollutants.
4. Tap Water contains elements that are not naturally occuring in seawater
5. Purified water mixed with a quality salt mix using the proper procedures most closely mimics natural seawater.
6. The HSP (Hobby Standard Practice) is to do partial water changes on a re-occuring basis.
Bob - thanks for the info from anthony - I too enjoy his website!
lesleybird
Active Member
Originally posted by Trigger78
I've seen people post some comments about not doing water changes on this site. How does this work and what are the main effects this causes on tanks, wiether they are good or bad?
Those ar the lazy people who don't believe in clean tanks or properly taking care of their livestock. That says it in a nutshell. Lesley
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Lesleybird
Those ar the lazy people who don't believe in clean tanks or properly taking care of their livestock. That says it in a nutshell. Lesley
I respectfully disagree. I you set up a system with common filters, no plants, overfeed, and bright lights and then just don't do water changes then you will get a dirty tank with livesstock which dies. If you set up a system exactly the same, clean the tank every week, and do waterchanges then you will have a system which is clean for a few days each week in which livestock dies.
But if you establish a system with tap water and establish plants life before anything else then you will have a clean system where livestock and plants thrive. If you do not do water changes, then the system does not change. There is no buildup of toxins because the plants are removing all toxins. Plants also help maintain the trace elements. All tap water does is feed the plants until the much heavier bioload is encountered from the livestock. And when that heavier bioload is present the plants are ready and more than capabile of handling that bioload.
It is extremely easy and inexpensive to set up such a system. I find it amazing that this is such a hard concept to grasp. Plants maintain the livestock and livestock maintains the plants.
If people want to do work just to be doing work fine. I just don't believe in doing things which are constantly changing the environment for our livestock and plants.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by overanalyzer
Bob: You state: The reason I am asking is that I am constantly chatting with other saltwater keepers who just don't seem to get the importance of naturally balancing out the ecosystem using plants.
I don't think anyone here is saying that ... what we are saying is that if you want a reef tank then you need to have that balanced eco-system outside of your main display. Seriously - Has anyone ever said that macro algea's should not be used?? Nope we all state they should be used in a refugium.
Refugium or display is personnal preference. What I do not hear is anyone here advising to establish plant life first and then the rest later. In fact just the opposite. Got an algae bloom get a cleaner crew. Got ph or calc problems get additives. Drip kalk, change lighting, add a calcium reactor. Got nitrates add a DSB. When I hear people stating the first thing is to get desirable plant life established to get the phosphates, nitrates and carbon dioxide down then I will believe the importance of plant life is getting the respect it deserves.
Also the other point we try to stress which you don't address with Anthony is your use of tap water. You feel as if your macro algea's will filter out all introduced heavy metals (by introduced I mean heavy metals not found in natural seawater to the exent they are found in tap water). Macro Algea's do filter out the heavey metals found in sea water ... but your tap water contains more trace metal elements then sea water.
If you are interested in Anthony's position on what type of water to use you might want to check out his coral prop. book where he specifically talks about using DI water .... I'll find the page number and post the quote if you are interested.
I will accept that tap water contains trace metal elements at higher levels than sea water. And you accept that these are filtered out by plants. Seems we have found common ground. And for coral propagation most do recommend RO/DI. But that is not by necessity but to get the good feeling we are being safe and the cost of the RO/DI is much less than the livestock being "protected". My position is the RO/DI is detrimental and unecessary. The plants will reduce the ions to safe levels and RO/DI removes necessary trace elements and buffering which degrades the system. it makes no sense to remove calcium carbonate and then have to drip kalk for instance.
Lets review what I see as the facts (if these are not facts please provide me the proof they aren't):
1. Macro's good - used to help keep natural balances in seawater, good natural filters, need maintenance to ensure the elements they take up are not released (usually referred to as going sexual)
Agreed. My position is that plants are necessary and unavoidable. Either maintain the plants you want, have plants you don't want, or have high phosphate, nitrates and the other things the plants filter.
2. Macro's in display BAD - they can choke out corals, over run rocks and require regular maintenance.
Disagree personal preference
3. Water gets polluted - even the best filters can't replenish all natural occuring trace elements and remove all the pollutants.
Only possible answer is to agree. Further that water changes witn RO/DI or any other water cannot replenish all naturally occuring elements and remove polutants. only a 100% water change will. I just prefer to allow the plants to filter 99.99999% of the polutants, substrait and food added to buffer and replinish trace elements and allow the plants to remove the excesses. Just as it worked in one tank for 6 years of continous running.
4. Tap Water contains elements that are not naturally occuring in seawater
Of course. It also contains the same exact elements which run down the river and provide the sea with those elements.
5. Purified water mixed with a quality salt mix using the proper procedures most closely mimics natural seawater.
Sure. But i thought salt mixes were buffered for tap water and newly mixed sea water using ro/di has ph values too low (5.0 reported on this board)
6. The HSP (Hobby Standard Practice) is to do partial water changes on a re-occuring basis.
Probably. Kinda makes people feel they are doing something. All I am saying is they are unecessary and detrimental.
Bob - thanks for the info from anthony - I too enjoy his website!
Wasn't actually his web site from what I gathered. Bob Fenner's name was all over it. Or perhaps it is now anthony's site.
sparky0028
Member
Squishyfish
Great tank - you added alot of LR in 3 months, love the design and the corals
Great tank - you added alot of LR in 3 months, love the design and the corals
lesleybird
Active Member
Hi, I am all for doing 25 percent water changes twice a month, but the heavy metal argument? If we use RO water doesn't it remove any heavy metals that we don't want in the first place? Where are these undesirable metals comming from? The rocks maybe? Or is heavy metal really an issue here? How about skimmers? What are they removing in the way of pollution? Lesley
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SquishyFish
Bob,
...
You stated "My position is the RO/DI is detrimental and unecessary."
I want to be clear. Are you suggesting that the chem's put into our drinking water specifically designed to kill living organisms is benificial to our tanks? Where as the "purity" (or as close as poss) of RO/DI water is Detrimental? I would love to hear how chlorine is good for my fish. Please feel free to explain.
I am not saying chems to kill life in our drinking water is benificial to our tanks. Just that 1) they are not as a level that kills humans. 2) they disappate very rapidly (like minutes and hours). RO/di water also has no phosphates, nitrates, calcium, magseium and other trace elements that provide the ocean with those same trace elements. the phosphates and nitrates feed the plants and therefore encourage the filtering actions of the plants. Additionally, the main source of phosphates and nitrates in active aquariums is the bioload even with tap water being used.
You also stated: "Refugium or display is personnal preference. What I do not hear is anyone here advising to establish plant life first and then the rest later. In fact just the opposite. Got an algae bloom get a cleaner crew. Got ph or calc problems get additives. Drip kalk, change lighting, add a calcium reactor. Got nitrates add a DSB. "
Exactly how do plants add Ca to the water?
They don't. Tap water does. Aragonite and CC help buffer calc also. here is a qoute from that web site:
1) Bio-filtering: Macro-algae can aid considerably in establishing and stabilizing new or "out-of-whack" systems. They bring in and help to institute micro-organism communities, absorb nutrients introduced by food, decor and tap water. For systems with invertebrates, particularly anemones and live corals, live plant material can be especially helpful in improving water quality. In sufficient growing strength, macro-algae will remove nitrates, assist in buffering pH, uptake carbon dioxide producing oxygen, and assist in balancing trace elements (e.g. magnesium, phosphate, iron)
I know of no other items that provide all those benifits.
There two old sayings that I think apply very well here. "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "the proof is in the pudding."
Or in this case the proof is in the tank. If the desired effect someone is looking for is what you have in your tank, then by all means, they should listen to you. If you do not have what they are wanting....would you still encourage them to follow your advise as they will surely achive the same results.
Oh! another one that I just thought of that applies! "If we always do what we have always done, we will always get what we have always got."
Wouldnt you say that it is reasonable for someone to listen to your advise, or my advise, only if they want to achieve the results we have achieved?
Squishy
Your tank is awsome. You don't like mine. The real question is whether or not yours would be different with no water changes, tap water, and plants or if my would be different with ro/di, and water changes, and no plants. It is my belief based upon years of experience that yours would be better and mine would be worse. But then I make the assumption that you have tried tap water, establishing plant life first, and not doing water changes. I could be wrong on that. I do know that my current system settled down with the addition of plant life and by not changing water and using tap. I also know that my initial efforts at tanks with water changes was a disaster.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SquishyFish
...
I have yet to see any evidence that these items do. CC will not buffer the ca and dkh unless it is in a calc reactor invironment...neither will Argonite.
Thanks for the input. I will keep trying and see what happens.
To this point we agree that macros are good for a tank. But I have yet to see any evidence that tap water can be anything but bad for a tank.
I one post kip reported that he switched from tap water to Ro/DI because the calcium was too high. then he driips calc to get it back up. He also reports that tap water has buffering and higher alk. Additionally some of reported that ph using ro/di water is very low and in one post down to 5.0 after a day of mixing. By contrast using tap water produces ph of around 8.4. Finally, since the late 70's fresh and salt tanks in 6 various cities in the US, I have never stressed any fish in any way using straight tap water.
Please do explain. If it turned out that your right (which I obviously do not think you are) It will save all of us alot of money.
Respectfully disagreeing
Squishy
All I can do is report my experiences. People have to be receptive to those experiences.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
RO/di water also has no phosphates, nitrates, calcium, magseium and other trace elements that provide the ocean with those same trace elements. the phosphates and nitrates feed the plants and therefore encourage the filtering actions of the plants. Additionally, the main source of phosphates and nitrates in active aquariums is the bioload even with tap water being used.
RO/DI water has no Phosphates, no nitrates, nor does it have calcium, mag. or other trace elements ..... which is why you do a water change. You see - Just adding tap water does not mean you are adding in accepted or even reasonable amounts those individual elements.
Doing a regular water change with purified water means you are re-intorducing those needed elements. with teh added bonus of exporting wastes built up that can not be handled by filtration - even by plants.
Can't quite understand how you think adding tap water with un-reliably reported measurements of harmful chemcials to your tank is beneficial for your tank ....
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by beaslbob
Finally, since the late 70's fresh and salt tanks in 6 various cities in the US, I have never stressed any fish in any way using straight tap water.
All I can do is report my experiences. People have to be receptive to those experiences.
Bob - has nothing changed since the 70's?? Have no improvments been made?? I mean - heck - leaded gas was cheaper and my cars ran just as well why did we switch to unleaded??
Also I thought you have only had salt water fish for 6 years??
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Over: as I have stated before unless you have experience with these methods you simply don't know.
Sure things have changed since the 70's. But the need for a balanced ecosystem hasn't.
The 6 years was for a continuously running salt tank with no water changes. have about 12 years total salt experience in three cities in the US.
finally consider the thread in the trading and calssified section titled "I have alot of Halameda and want to trade." crazyreefnut reports he uses tap and does not do water changes and has lotsa halimeda for trade. So I am not the only one reporting sucess. From that thread:
Sure things have changed since the 70's. But the need for a balanced ecosystem hasn't.
The 6 years was for a continuously running salt tank with no water changes. have about 12 years total salt experience in three cities in the US.
finally consider the thread in the trading and calssified section titled "I have alot of Halameda and want to trade." crazyreefnut reports he uses tap and does not do water changes and has lotsa halimeda for trade. So I am not the only one reporting sucess. From that thread:
overanalyzer
Active Member
Bob – not sure how I missed your replies.Refugium or display is personal preference.
Bob – I have seen a lot of people complaining about losing LR and corals to overgrowth of macro algea’s. You are the only person I see who pushes placing macro algeas in the display
What I do not hear is anyone here advising to establish plant life first and then the rest later. In fact just the opposite. Got an algae bloom get a cleaner crew. Got ph or calc problems get additives. Drip kalk, change lighting, add a calcium reactor. Got nitrates add a DSB. When I hear people stating the first thing is to get desirable plant life established to get the phosphates, nitrates and carbon dioxide down then I will believe the importance of plant life is getting the respect it deserves.
I don’t see this nor do I understand why you say this. Most times people ask first off –do you have a refugium. Neither do I advocate one step (such as a DSB) to correct a problem, nor do I advocate the use of additives.
Agreed. My position is that plants are necessary and unavoidable. Either maintain the plants you want, have plants you don't want, or have high phosphate, nitrates and the other things the plants filter.
Damn we agreed …. Amazing. One side point though – people can maintain and control phosphate, nitrates, etc. without the use of plants …. (filters, nitrate coils, UV sterilizers, Phosphate sponges, additives, etc.) Of course it is a heck of a lot easier and cheaper to maintain a refugium.
2. Macro's in display BAD - they can choke out corals, over run rocks and require regular maintenance.
Disagree personal preference
Bob – those are facts – macro’s CAN choke out corals. Macro’s CAN over run rocks and Macro’s in the display DO require maintenance. I have one rock … in my refugium. Perfect shape to go into my tank … pulled it out of my refugium to remove the macro … the roots are so deep into the rock I pulled out roots using needle nose pliers, tweezers, etc. and had to give up ….
I just prefer to allow the plants to filter 99.99999% of the polutants, substrait and food added to buffer and replinish trace elements and allow the plants to remove the excesses. Just as it worked in one tank for 6 years of continous running.
So Plants now filter 99.99999% of water pollutants?? Is this guess work or fact or a Bob-ism? Food does NOT buffer – it increases nitrates …. To buffer is to help keep the water quality at or near optimum. If nitrates are to be 0 or as close to 0 as possible then food does qualify as a buffer as it increases nitrates ….
Working for 6 years?? Your SW tank looks like a FW planted tank … not a reef tank. Also – it does not look like any portion of the ocean I have ever seen photographed.
4. Tap Water contains elements that are not naturally occuring in seawater
Of course. It also contains the same exact elements which run down the river and provide the sea with those elements.
Bob – the only water that I have seen that runs directly from the tap to the ocean is the scene in Nemo …. Even septic water goes through biological filtration before getting back into the ground (then into the ground water and eventually into the ocean). Even through the fluvial process you have massive amounts of filtration (peat bogs, mangroves, continual water dilution through the surf).
So pure tap water does not hit the ocean in any great quantity …
5. Purified water mixed with a quality salt mix using the proper procedures most closely mimics natural seawater.
Sure. But i thought salt mixes were buffered for tap water and newly mixed sea water using ro/di has ph values too low (5.0 reported on this board)
Lets clarify – ro/di water starts out with a PH too low. If the water is aerated and the salt mix is mixed properly then the salt mix buffers up the PH to the desired levels. I am mixing water for a large water change in my 20 gallon (5 Gallons) and the PH is currently @ 8.2….
6. The HSP (Hobby Standard Practice) is to do partial water changes on a re-occuring basis.
Probably. Kinda makes people feel they are doing something. All I am saying is they are unecessary and detrimental.
Not sure how you can say that? I could see you saying something along the lines of: If they are not done properly they can be detrimental.
Wasn't actually his web site from what I gathered. Bob Fenner's name was all over it. Or perhaps it is now anthony's site.
Hmm send me the link jhilsch_1999@yahoo.com always looking for more info!
Bob – I have seen a lot of people complaining about losing LR and corals to overgrowth of macro algea’s. You are the only person I see who pushes placing macro algeas in the display
What I do not hear is anyone here advising to establish plant life first and then the rest later. In fact just the opposite. Got an algae bloom get a cleaner crew. Got ph or calc problems get additives. Drip kalk, change lighting, add a calcium reactor. Got nitrates add a DSB. When I hear people stating the first thing is to get desirable plant life established to get the phosphates, nitrates and carbon dioxide down then I will believe the importance of plant life is getting the respect it deserves.
I don’t see this nor do I understand why you say this. Most times people ask first off –do you have a refugium. Neither do I advocate one step (such as a DSB) to correct a problem, nor do I advocate the use of additives.
Agreed. My position is that plants are necessary and unavoidable. Either maintain the plants you want, have plants you don't want, or have high phosphate, nitrates and the other things the plants filter.
Damn we agreed …. Amazing. One side point though – people can maintain and control phosphate, nitrates, etc. without the use of plants …. (filters, nitrate coils, UV sterilizers, Phosphate sponges, additives, etc.) Of course it is a heck of a lot easier and cheaper to maintain a refugium.
2. Macro's in display BAD - they can choke out corals, over run rocks and require regular maintenance.
Disagree personal preference
Bob – those are facts – macro’s CAN choke out corals. Macro’s CAN over run rocks and Macro’s in the display DO require maintenance. I have one rock … in my refugium. Perfect shape to go into my tank … pulled it out of my refugium to remove the macro … the roots are so deep into the rock I pulled out roots using needle nose pliers, tweezers, etc. and had to give up ….
I just prefer to allow the plants to filter 99.99999% of the polutants, substrait and food added to buffer and replinish trace elements and allow the plants to remove the excesses. Just as it worked in one tank for 6 years of continous running.
So Plants now filter 99.99999% of water pollutants?? Is this guess work or fact or a Bob-ism? Food does NOT buffer – it increases nitrates …. To buffer is to help keep the water quality at or near optimum. If nitrates are to be 0 or as close to 0 as possible then food does qualify as a buffer as it increases nitrates ….
Working for 6 years?? Your SW tank looks like a FW planted tank … not a reef tank. Also – it does not look like any portion of the ocean I have ever seen photographed.
4. Tap Water contains elements that are not naturally occuring in seawater
Of course. It also contains the same exact elements which run down the river and provide the sea with those elements.
Bob – the only water that I have seen that runs directly from the tap to the ocean is the scene in Nemo …. Even septic water goes through biological filtration before getting back into the ground (then into the ground water and eventually into the ocean). Even through the fluvial process you have massive amounts of filtration (peat bogs, mangroves, continual water dilution through the surf).
So pure tap water does not hit the ocean in any great quantity …
5. Purified water mixed with a quality salt mix using the proper procedures most closely mimics natural seawater.
Sure. But i thought salt mixes were buffered for tap water and newly mixed sea water using ro/di has ph values too low (5.0 reported on this board)
Lets clarify – ro/di water starts out with a PH too low. If the water is aerated and the salt mix is mixed properly then the salt mix buffers up the PH to the desired levels. I am mixing water for a large water change in my 20 gallon (5 Gallons) and the PH is currently @ 8.2….
6. The HSP (Hobby Standard Practice) is to do partial water changes on a re-occuring basis.
Probably. Kinda makes people feel they are doing something. All I am saying is they are unecessary and detrimental.
Not sure how you can say that? I could see you saying something along the lines of: If they are not done properly they can be detrimental.
Wasn't actually his web site from what I gathered. Bob Fenner's name was all over it. Or perhaps it is now anthony's site.
Hmm send me the link jhilsch_1999@yahoo.com always looking for more info!