water changes my view

[florida joe]

Well its been a while since I have stirred up some controversy so I figures this is as good a time as any. Seeing some posts by people new to the hobby on water changes and responses I thought I would stir the pot.
Back in the old days when I started in this hobby the principal reason for water changes was to reduce the accumulation of nitrate and refractory organic substances and to maintain PH. With the advent of natural bio-filters (live rock and live sand substraight) the accumulation of nitrate and drop in ph is held to a minimum. The extensive use of a protein skimmer and activated carbon further the removal of organic substances in the water. We also add supplements to our water such as calcium and buffers. Would I recommend not doing water changes just doing top offs and adjusting salinity? Of course not, but a 10 to 25 percent water change once a month and the addition of calcium and trace elements should be enough and less dirrupteve to the tank
Ok let the games begin

 

[al mc]

Wow, Joe.....I actually agree with you

. Knew it was bound to happen sometime

 

[renogaw]

that's what i thought until i started having nuisance algae issues and all my zoos melted away, and even my anthelia is dying off...

 

[robertmathern]

Ok someone put on some boxing gloves this is going to get ugly

 

[spanko]

How many actually test for and dose trace elements? I wonder what the usage is of trace elements in a well stocked reef system is and wheter or not you could even replenish anything that is important with just dosing. That said I do know of people that do monthly water changes in the neighborhood of 25-35% and have beautiful, long lived (2+ years)systems. I think that with anything else as we get better at knowing our particular systems and it's requirements that there is no real standard that can be applied.
On with the games!

 

[ifirefight]

Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/post/2869507
I do know of people that do monthly water changes in the neighborhood of 25-35% and have beautiful, long lived (2+ years)systems. I think that with anything else as we get better at knowing our particular systems and it's requirements that there is no real standard that can be applied.
On with the games!
In my 130, I change 25 gallons out every 6 weeks. I dose 2 part daily. I DO NOT over feed,I have a great skimmer and I am not over stocked with fish. I dont have any problems with my levels...oh and by the way...I use Natural saltwater. Im sure some are reading this and thinking

.... Well, Ive done it like this since day 1. Works for me. Heres a link to pics of my tank in interested.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/319804/ifirefights-130-reef-pics

 

[spanko]

Darn it! I forgot to mention the need for dilution of nastiness whatever form it takes.
I also agree with this statement:
"With the proper tools and materials, water changes are a breeze. Water changing is the cheapest, easiest, most sure method of diluting wastes and replenishing buffering capacity, "trace materials", while concurrently cleaning the system of undesirable solids and liquids."
And just for general knowledge I do 20% weekly in my 29 gallon biocube.

 

[big]

Joe this can of worms you have opened may become very interesting to watch............

I too have some of these thoughts with the weekly task......

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2869501
that's what i thought until i started having nuisance algae issues and all my zoos melted away, and even my anthelia is dying off...
Renogaw my friend are you attributing those problems to less frequent water changes

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869507
How many actually test for and dose trace elements? I wonder what the usage is of trace elements in a well stocked reef system is and wheter or not you could even replenish anything that is important with just dosing. That said I do know of people that do monthly water changes in the neighborhood of 25-35% and have beautiful, long lived (2+ years)systems. I think that with anything else as we get better at knowing our particular systems and it's requirements that there is no real standard that can be applied.
On with the games!
Henry my friend reading your post has caused me to feel I have left out a very important consideration. Less frequent water changes recommended to new hobbyists is irresponsible on my part if they are less able to distinguish a situation that dictates the need for immediately and multiple water changes in a short period of time

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by ifirefight http:///forum/post/2869516
In my 130, I change 25 gallons out every 6 weeks. I dose 2 part daily. I DO NOT over feed,I have a great skimmer and I am not over stocked with fish. I dont have any problems with my levels...oh and by the way...I use Natural saltwater. Im sure some are reading this and thinking

.... Well, Ive done it like this since day 1. Works for me. Heres a link to pics of my tank in interested.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/319804/ifirefights-130-reef-pics
Got to love that South Fl water

 

[westwind77]

My old tank, 75g reef, I had set up for one year and 'maybe' did ONE 20% water change. Only topped off the tank when needed. The fish, lr, coral, never had a problem and grew perfect. I figured since it 'was not broke' there was no reason to fix it. All the chems were in check, tested weekly. Only was up for a year before I had to move.
I finally finished the set-up of the new 110 X-HI. I figured I would try the whole water change thing and follow the 'rules' with this tank, will see how it goes!
I dont know enough to say good or bad, but that was my experience!

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by big
http:///forum/post/2869527
Joe this can of worms you have opened may become very interesting to watch............

I too have some of these thoughts with the weekly task......
As I have want to do my only problem is that I am not satisfied with sitting on the side lines and enjoying it, I have to be right in the mix

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869521
Darn it! I forgot to mention the need for dilution of nastiness whatever form it takes.
I also agree with this statement:
"With the proper tools and materials, water changes are a breeze. Water changing is the cheapest, easiest, most sure method of diluting wastes and replenishing buffering capacity, "trace materials", while concurrently cleaning the system of undesirable solids and liquids."
And just for general knowledge I do 20% weekly in my 29 gallon biocube.
Henry first we need to classify what nasties we have that are in our tanks and not mitigated by our bio or mechanical filtration.
I don’t think the question is the ease or lack of in water changes
Rapid dilution of waste may not be the best thing if the waste is part of the life cycle of the foundation of our bio filtration
Solids in suspension should be removed by our mechanical filters constant vacuuming of our substraight can and will disrupt our nitrification colonies as well as causing our anaerobic bacteria to be exposed to oxygen.
I feel constant water changes in a small tank such as yours never really allows for the tank to reach equilibrium as we are constantly changing water parameters in such short periods of time

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2869537
Renogaw my friend are you attributing those problems to less frequent water changes

direct corellation. nothing else has changed. i feed the same, same lights but i've replaced the lights every 6 months, same equipment, etc. just not enough time with the baby to do water changes like i want. sometimes i've gone three weeks or even a month and my rock is COVERED in detritus, nitrates were skyrocketting, phosphates were astronomical.
i've started getting time to do at least biweekly water changes and nitrates are back down to almost zero, phosphates (not sure... havent tested in a while), and when i blow off the rocks i still have some visibility

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2869643
direct corellation. nothing else has changed. i feed the same, same lights but i've replaced the lights every 6 months, same equipment, etc. just not enough time with the baby to do water changes like i want. sometimes i've gone three weeks or even a month and my rock is COVERED in detritus, nitrates were skyrocketting, phosphates were astronomical.
i've started getting time to do at least biweekly water changes and nitrates are back down to almost zero, phosphates (not sure... havent tested in a while), and when i blow off the rocks i still have some visibility
But could you not say that with the time for the proper maintenance vacuuming the detritus your nitrification would not have out run your denitrification and thus no spike in nitrates. Effecting the equilibrium in your tank and adversely affecting your coral
And if I have not said so before congratulations on the arrival of your child

 

[florida joe]

Socal57che posted some info in my tread on nitrates that may be relevant here he quoted the good Dr Shimek and stated that many of our tanks are high in toxic metals and are toxic dumps. the good Dr proposed in 2002 and 2003 that due to artificial seawater mixes many of which have high metal concentrations we are poisoning our tanks these metals accumulate in our rocks and substrate. If that is true the more water changes the more heavy metals introduced the more toxic are tanks become

 

[stanlalee]

thats not really all that atypical of a practice. It seems the bigger the tanks the more likely it is to follow the practice of infrequent water changes. I think few people with established reef tanks do water changes due to nitrates or maintaining parameters. this guy (carls 300g reef) for instance http://reefvideos.com/ does water changes once every three months and his bulbs are two years old. its hard to argue the results. I do them frequently (weekly) mainly because having a 30g its just easy and cheap to do frequently and I it makes me feel better.

 

[fcatch76]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869507
How many actually test for and dose trace elements? I wonder what the usage is of trace elements in a well stocked reef system is and wheter or not you could even replenish anything that is important with just dosing. That said I do know of people that do monthly water changes in the neighborhood of 25-35% and have beautiful, long lived (2+ years)systems. I think that with anything else as we get better at knowing our particular systems and it's requirements that there is no real standard that can be applied.
On with the games!
+1 with spanko, each of our systems is unique..oh and I do 10% every other week on my 29 and 14. Found that the trate level gets higher than I want it at the end of the second week.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2869783
Socal57che posted some info in my tread on nitrates that may be relevant here he quoted the good Dr Shimek and stated that many of our tanks are high in toxic metals and are toxic dumps. the good Dr proposed in 2002 and 2003 that due to artificial seawater mixes many of which have high metal concentrations we are poisoning our tanks these metals accumulate in our rocks and substrate. If that is true the more water changes the more heavy metals introduced the more toxic are tanks become
I am lucky enough to live close to an endless supply of ready to use (kind of) seawater. The local aquarium (Birch Aquarium) lets reefers fill up containers with the same filtered water they use for their displays at no charge. I get natural sea water without any added minerals, chemicals, synthetics or other supplements.
I'll add a quote from Dr Shimek here as well...
"Conclusions:
This study has demonstrated that the artificial sea water made using some common and popular commercial artificial salt water mixes is toxic to sea urchin larvae using a variant of a standard bioassay. Such water will also likely have effects on other animals. This study also showed that some artificial sea water mixes produced water that could support larval development as well as could natural seawater. The use of such "good" artificial sea water will promote the health of coral reef organisms. Coupled with a vigorous program of nutrient and trace metal export (See Shimek, 2002e), use of these salts should go a long way to prevent the build up of potentially toxic trace metals in coral reef tanks.
Both of the salts that had good larval survivability are readily available at reasonable prices. The Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay Formulation is not commonly available to hobbyists, being designed and marketed for bioassay laboratories. However, it is available online from various vendors. The Crystal Sea Marinemix - Bioassay Formulation is essentially the same as standard Crystal Sea Marinemix which it differs from only in lacking the dechlorinator found in the latter salt (R. Spellman, pers. comm.). Standard Crystal Sea Marinemix and Bio-Sea Marinemix salts are widely available."