water changes my view

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Stanlalee
http:///forum/post/2869793
thats not really all that atypical of a practice. It seems the bigger the tanks the more likely it is to follow the practice of infrequent water changes. I think few people with established reef tanks do water changes due to nitrates or maintaining parameters. this guy (carls 300g reef) for instance http://reefvideos.com/ does water changes once every three months and his bulbs are two years old. its hard to argue the results. I do them frequently (weekly) mainly because having a 30g its just easy and cheap to do frequently and I it makes me feel better.
you Sir are a true hobbyist

 

[robertmathern]

ok not saying I agree with joe but I have a newbie question. Do pod not eat detrious and your clean up crew eat most of whats left. Cheatio dose it not eat nitrates and bacteria turn everything into nitrates and with the filters working right. will not everything not equal out with doseing for corals. I mean no one changes the water in the ocean and is that not what we are mimicing in our tanks

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2869860
I am lucky enough to live close to an endless supply of ready to use (kind of) seawater. The local aquarium (Birch Aquarium) lets reefers fill up containers with the same filtered water they use for their displays at no charge. I get natural sea water without any added minerals, chemicals, synthetics or other supplements.
I'll add a quote from Dr Shimek here as well...
"Conclusions:
This study has demonstrated that the artificial sea water made using some common and popular commercial artificial salt water mixes is toxic to sea urchin larvae using a variant of a standard bioassay. Such water will also likely have effects on other animals. This study also showed that some artificial sea water mixes produced water that could support larval development as well as could natural seawater. The use of such "good" artificial sea water will promote the health of coral reef organisms. Coupled with a vigorous program of nutrient and trace metal export (See Shimek, 2002e), use of these salts should go a long way to prevent the build up of potentially toxic trace metals in coral reef tanks.
Both of the salts that had good larval survivability are readily available at reasonable prices. The Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay Formulation is not commonly available to hobbyists, being designed and marketed for bioassay laboratories. However, it is available online from various vendors. The Crystal Sea Marinemix - Bioassay Formulation is essentially the same as standard Crystal Sea Marinemix which it differs from only in lacking the dechlorinator found in the latter salt (R. Spellman, pers. comm.). Standard Crystal Sea Marinemix and Bio-Sea Marinemix salts are widely available."
My friend you are truly lucky spending most of my life in Brooklyn NY and close to the Coney Island aquarium I was privy to obtain water from the Atlantic that they used in their aquarium. Im my humble option there is noting like natural sea water

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by fcatch76
http:///forum/post/2869797
+1 with spanko, each of our systems is unique..oh and I do 10% every other week on my 29 and 14. Found that the trate level gets higher than I want it at the end of the second week.
The nitrate level gets higher because with your constant water change in such a small tank you are not letting your anaerobic bacteria grow due to the low nitrate levels

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/2869913
ok not saying I agree with joe but I have a newbie question. Do pod not eat detrious and your clean up crew eat most of whats left. Cheatio dose it not eat nitrates and bacteria turn everything into nitrates and with the filters working right. will not everything not equal out with doseing for corals. I mean no one changes the water in the ocean and is that not what we are mimicing in our tanks
Not sure about the rest of your post because of my inebriated state but let me say if you do agree with me please understand you will not be turned into stone

 

[socal57che]

Another thing to consider here is the heavy metals we introduce every time trace elementes are dosed. Whether we get these elementes from natural sea water or by dosing from a bottle off the shelf, they are in the water and will accumulate in our tanks unless exported. We know that export is basically limited to macroalgaes, the trusted skimmer, filter pads and good old water changes.

 

[robertmathern]

Its not I dont agree with you but I am a newbie I wont even attempt it right now intill I know what I am doing. And know everything has almost equaled out first. But its a good point.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/2869913
I mean no one changes the water in the ocean and is that not what we are mimicing in our tanks

We will never recreate what occurs in the ocean inside our glass cages, so this is not really a good comparison. In a closed system, we have to control what goes in and what comes out.

 

[robertmathern]

that sounds like to me we need to make more advances in the hobby. It all starts with guys like you

good luck lol

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/2869957
that sounds like to me we need to make more advances in the hobby. It all starts with guys like you

good luck lol
You said it.

We are doing things today that were only dreamed of a few years ago. I'm glad to share in the knowledge of those who learned what I consider basics first hand. Those who have been reefers for years are what made what we have today possible.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/2869957
that sounds like to me we need to make more advances in the hobby. It all starts with guys like you

good luck lol
I am sure socal will agree with me on this one IT STARTS with guys like you the new bees ask questions douth seek your own answers and opinions and present them fight us old timers with your new ideas the hobby will be better for it

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
http:///forum/post/2869500
Wow, Joe.....I actually agree with you

. Knew it was bound to happen sometime

sorry to get back to you so late my friend but be carful who you agree with

 

[robertmathern]

Thats excatly what I am thinking. For most of us we dont have the room. But if you had a refugium the size of your tank full with dsb and macro alge. A really good skimmer and a huge sump. A low bio load. and a good clean up crew. With a little doseing to keep calicum alk and ph in check. I dont see why we would have to do water changes at all. But at the end of the day its all math. There has to be a formula to it we just have not figured out yet.

 

[baileyaa]

This might get some panties in a bunch, but...
I have a 20H FOWLR and buttons with
a flame angle, mimic tang, longnose hawk, two domino damsels, two yellow fin, a bicolor pseudo, watchman goby, two cleaner shrimp, and a longhorn cow. With no skimmer, no sump, only two aquaclear 150's and two small powerheads. NO TESTS other than temp and salinity. I only do 10% once a month or so. Its been running since march. when i do water changes i put some of that water in my 750ML pico reef. This system is the only one i abuse.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/2869994
Thats excatly what I am thinking. For most of us we dont have the room. But if you had a refugium the size of your tank full with dsb and macro alge. A really good skimmer and a huge sump. A low bio load. and a good clean up crew. With a little doseing to keep calicum alk and ph in check. I dont see why we would have to do water changes at all. But at the end of the day its all math. There has to be a formula to it we just have not figured out yet.
People have kept tanks with out doing water changes for extended periods of time ( years) but these are people with a specific research goal in mind I would never advocate no water changes for the home hobbyist just a realistic time frame

 

[robertmathern]

not saying I would go without them either but there must be a way.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/2869994
Thats excatly what I am thinking. For most of us we dont have the room. But if you had a refugium the size of your tank full with dsb and macro alge. A really good skimmer and a huge sump. A low bio load. and a good clean up crew. With a little doseing to keep calicum alk and ph in check. I dont see why we would have to do water changes at all. But at the end of the day its all math. There has to be a formula to it we just have not figured out yet.
Something as simple as being a candle or incense addict can have adverse effect on our tanks. The emissions from these are absorbed by our tank water. Surface area is good until we pollute the air it comes in contact with.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by BaileyAA
http:///forum/post/2869999
This might get some panties in a bunch, but...
I have a 20H FOWLR and buttons with
a flame angle, mimic tang, longnose hawk, two domino damsels, two yellow fin, a bicolor pseudo, watchman goby, two cleaner shrimp, and a longhorn cow. With no skimmer, no sump, only two aquaclear 150's and two small powerheads. NO TESTS other than temp and salinity. I only do 10% once a month or so. Its been running since march. when i do water changes i put some of that water in my 750ML pico reef. This system is the only one i abuse.
Its all about equilibrium my friend find the balance and you find simplicity itself ( wow did i say that)

 

[spanko]

So Joe, are you advocating, or suggesting, that to mature our systems need to have the ability to allow the anaerobic bacteria to multiply via a build up in nitrate? And that this build up is possible by a less frequent water change schedule, providing of course the tank already had the ability and bacteria needed to convert ammonia and nitrite? If so what is the affect on our coral and other livestock or are you suggesting that the cycle of a tank prior to adding livestock coral should be even a longer period of time? Perhaps that the addition of fish after the conventional wisdom of a 6 or so week time frame cycle in an effort to build nitrates to "mature the tank" for coral somewhere farther out in time?

 

[spanko]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2870016
Its all about equilibrium my friend find the balance and you find simplicity itself ( wow did i say that)
Yes and it was extremely eastern philosophical of you...