water changes my view
- Thread starter florida joe
- Start date
robertmathern
Active Member
good to see this post is still alive. Looks like it stired up conroversy alright. But alot of good info here good job joe.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by ameno
http:///forum/post/2871063
According to the research done by Randy Holmes Farley Their is little difference in changing out one gal. a day versis 30 gal. a month as far as adding and subtracting new and old water, He has a graph made up somewere on his tread showing how it all plays out, One advantage is less of a sudden change in the tank water by doing it gradually.
I think you have missed my point a one gallon a day is fine for a person who is in tune with his tank and knows when a major water change is needed for the new hobbyist a one gallon change in a tank that is in a downward spiral is useless
http:///forum/post/2871063
According to the research done by Randy Holmes Farley Their is little difference in changing out one gal. a day versis 30 gal. a month as far as adding and subtracting new and old water, He has a graph made up somewere on his tread showing how it all plays out, One advantage is less of a sudden change in the tank water by doing it gradually.
I think you have missed my point a one gallon a day is fine for a person who is in tune with his tank and knows when a major water change is needed for the new hobbyist a one gallon change in a tank that is in a downward spiral is useless
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2871333
I think you have missed my point a one gallon a day is fine for a person who is in tune with his tank and knows when a major water change is needed for the new hobbyist a one gallon change in a tank that is in a downward spiral is useless
Nothing stirring here, just a informative conversation......
I have to agree, but regardless if they were doing 1 a day, or 30 a month. The need for an emergency WC would be the same. Doing larger ones wont prevent an incident any more than smaller ones will. Additionally, because a very small % water change is not critical to be precise and careful with. A newbe might not be so attuned to making larger ones and a bad situation could rapidly go south. Should they need to do an "emergency" WC, or series iof them. As they may be out of practice so to speek. Other than that, theres no reason why a newbie couldnt do smaller more frequent changes.
http:///forum/post/2871333
I think you have missed my point a one gallon a day is fine for a person who is in tune with his tank and knows when a major water change is needed for the new hobbyist a one gallon change in a tank that is in a downward spiral is useless
Nothing stirring here, just a informative conversation......
I have to agree, but regardless if they were doing 1 a day, or 30 a month. The need for an emergency WC would be the same. Doing larger ones wont prevent an incident any more than smaller ones will. Additionally, because a very small % water change is not critical to be precise and careful with. A newbe might not be so attuned to making larger ones and a bad situation could rapidly go south. Should they need to do an "emergency" WC, or series iof them. As they may be out of practice so to speek. Other than that, theres no reason why a newbie couldnt do smaller more frequent changes.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Ok lets look at it his way in a 30 day month on day one I do a 30 gallon water change in a 120 gallon tank I get a 25 percent dilution of something toxic in my tank. As apposed to a 1 gallon change which is less then one percent. It now takes me 30 days of dilution at one percent to get to the same place it took me in one day. Now if the toxicity is multiplying at even the same rate as a one percent water change I will never rid my self of it
my point is a 30 gallon water change would give you a much different effect then a one gallon a day would even though at the end of 30 days the total amount of water changed is the same
my point is a 30 gallon water change would give you a much different effect then a one gallon a day would even though at the end of 30 days the total amount of water changed is the same
big
Active Member
I have many times thought about the small verses larger issues too. So here is my two cents worth too. Maybe I just need the typing therapy today.....
The smaller more frequent is what I do with an occasional larger one. Especially if a pram is going out of whack. My one testable pram that always seems to go off is high alkalinity with too much time between changes.. I think the constant calcium needs and Kalk cause my problem...... I am still not sure if mine is the best method for me, but the tank seems to do OK........
Yet when I do the small changes I am changing a percentage of the water that I just changed a few days back every time I do it.. One larger change less often does not incur this "re-changing new water issue" to the same extent........
Look at it this way if I changed 5 gallons each day, a percentage of what I change today, was new water just yesterday., and today I am throwing away a percentage of water that was just added yesterday.......... I think this would apply to any very frequent method of changing to some degree.
As to some folk feeling that large percentage chances can be detrimental I think that may not true IF the necessary temperature, and PH issues match closely in the change water....But they are still a pain to do.
But with all this I am sure the "Solution is Dilution" thing is still a good way to look at the subject when it comes to toxins and heavy elements that build up over time.
But with all this I am sure there are still traces (original water)of that original first fill I did year ago in my tank many, many moons ago still mixing threw the tank......... Warren
The smaller more frequent is what I do with an occasional larger one. Especially if a pram is going out of whack. My one testable pram that always seems to go off is high alkalinity with too much time between changes.. I think the constant calcium needs and Kalk cause my problem...... I am still not sure if mine is the best method for me, but the tank seems to do OK........
Yet when I do the small changes I am changing a percentage of the water that I just changed a few days back every time I do it.. One larger change less often does not incur this "re-changing new water issue" to the same extent........
Look at it this way if I changed 5 gallons each day, a percentage of what I change today, was new water just yesterday., and today I am throwing away a percentage of water that was just added yesterday.......... I think this would apply to any very frequent method of changing to some degree.
As to some folk feeling that large percentage chances can be detrimental I think that may not true IF the necessary temperature, and PH issues match closely in the change water....But they are still a pain to do.
But with all this I am sure the "Solution is Dilution" thing is still a good way to look at the subject when it comes to toxins and heavy elements that build up over time.
But with all this I am sure there are still traces (original water)of that original first fill I did year ago in my tank many, many moons ago still mixing threw the tank......... Warren
socal57che
Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2871434
Ok lets look at it his way in a 30 day month on day one I do a 30 gallon water change in a 120 gallon tank I get a 25 percent dilution of something toxic in my tank. As apposed to a 1 gallon change which is less then one percent. It now takes me 30 days of dilution at one percent to get to the same place it took me in one day. Now if the toxicity is multiplying at even the same rate as a one percent water change I will never rid my self of it
my point is a 30 gallon water change would give you a much different effect then a one gallon a day would even though at the end of 30 days the total amount of water changed is the same
Exactly. Our weekly (or so) water changes of 10% will replenish lost elements, but as far as exporting the foul stuff it will not be sufficient to keep you in the black, so to speak. I think that 90+% of us do water changes first and foremost to export. To replenish the trace elments is secondary. I'm no scientist, but this seems like simple dilution of waste just like any other waste we as people deal with on a daily basis.
http:///forum/post/2871434
Ok lets look at it his way in a 30 day month on day one I do a 30 gallon water change in a 120 gallon tank I get a 25 percent dilution of something toxic in my tank. As apposed to a 1 gallon change which is less then one percent. It now takes me 30 days of dilution at one percent to get to the same place it took me in one day. Now if the toxicity is multiplying at even the same rate as a one percent water change I will never rid my self of it
my point is a 30 gallon water change would give you a much different effect then a one gallon a day would even though at the end of 30 days the total amount of water changed is the same
Exactly. Our weekly (or so) water changes of 10% will replenish lost elements, but as far as exporting the foul stuff it will not be sufficient to keep you in the black, so to speak. I think that 90+% of us do water changes first and foremost to export. To replenish the trace elments is secondary. I'm no scientist, but this seems like simple dilution of waste just like any other waste we as people deal with on a daily basis.
socal57che
Active Member
I just googled the issue and the VERY FIRST RESULT WAS THIS THREAD!!!
We are on the cutting edge now, boys and girls.
google...
"do small water changes dilute as well as one large water change?"
If I saw it for myself I might believe it, but it just doesn't seem logical.
PM me and I'll give you kids my email addy for a link.
We are on the cutting edge now, boys and girls.
google...
"do small water changes dilute as well as one large water change?"
If I saw it for myself I might believe it, but it just doesn't seem logical.
PM me and I'll give you kids my email addy for a link.
socal57che
Active Member
Ok, I found Randy's article and read through it. I am now working on some of the information sources he cited.
socal57che
Active Member
"The case of the 10% water change is also negative. While 10% is better than no actual volume changed regularly, it will take a great deal of time to remove any potential threats and replace those compounds that are valuable to the tank. In figure 4, it illustrates 10% changes and the effect of such a small change. Thirty consecutive water changes of 10% total volume means that you will still be left with almost 5% of the starting concentration of contaminants. In line with that consideration is that fact that at best, 30 water changes will take half a year to complete at more than one per week."
"After considering the result of changing varying percentages of water volume, I highly suggest 20 or 30% water changes, performed on a semi-regular basis. Usually every 2 to 3 weeks or whenever conditions in the tank appear to change or the water turns somewhat yellow due to the organic acids from decomposition building up."
from...
AN ADVANCED AQUARIST SHORT TAKE by D. WADE LEHMANN
"After considering the result of changing varying percentages of water volume, I highly suggest 20 or 30% water changes, performed on a semi-regular basis. Usually every 2 to 3 weeks or whenever conditions in the tank appear to change or the water turns somewhat yellow due to the organic acids from decomposition building up."
from...
AN ADVANCED AQUARIST SHORT TAKE by D. WADE LEHMANN
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Googling "Water Changes In Reef Aquaria by Randy holmes Farley" gets the article. Heres a clip from it.
What this article does provide, however, is a clarified understanding of what water changes are capable of achieving. Using known or calculated rates of addition and depletion of a variety of chemicals in seawater, the effects of water changes can be readily modeled. The impact of water changes on calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, nitrate and sulfate, for example, are shown graphically. In several cases, these examples also serve to provide guidance as to what is occurring with other ions not modeled, but which would increase or decrease in a similar fashion. For example, the control of nitrate accumulation with and without water changes can also show what effect water changes have on other accumulating generic chemicals such as phosphate, organics, heavy metals, and other materials.
How much water must be changed depends entirely on what the desired outcome of the water change actually is. If it is to reduce an accidentally added toxin, massive, immediate and repeated water changes may be appropriate. If it is to maintain calcium and alkalinity, large daily water changes may be necessary. If it is to keep slowly added or depleted ions (e.g., magnesium or strontium) from drifting away from "normal" levels, then smaller changes may be adequate.
Previous articles on water changes have "shown" that small water changes are not useful, and have sometimes left the impression that even many small water changes are not beneficial. It is also "common knowledge" among many reef aquarists that continuous water changes (where water is added and removed at the same time, usually by automatic pumping) is not very useful "because this removes some of the new water that was just added." As I'll show, these assumptions do not stand up to analysis for typical water change scenarios. Consequently, whether choosing to change a lot of water, or only a little, and whether it is done continually, daily, or only rarely, more water change options are available to aquarists than many realize. These increased options' availability may permit busy aquarists to spend time on other important activities, and less time on water changes, while still accomplishing the same goals.
Read the entire article. It is verry informative.
What this article does provide, however, is a clarified understanding of what water changes are capable of achieving. Using known or calculated rates of addition and depletion of a variety of chemicals in seawater, the effects of water changes can be readily modeled. The impact of water changes on calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, nitrate and sulfate, for example, are shown graphically. In several cases, these examples also serve to provide guidance as to what is occurring with other ions not modeled, but which would increase or decrease in a similar fashion. For example, the control of nitrate accumulation with and without water changes can also show what effect water changes have on other accumulating generic chemicals such as phosphate, organics, heavy metals, and other materials.
How much water must be changed depends entirely on what the desired outcome of the water change actually is. If it is to reduce an accidentally added toxin, massive, immediate and repeated water changes may be appropriate. If it is to maintain calcium and alkalinity, large daily water changes may be necessary. If it is to keep slowly added or depleted ions (e.g., magnesium or strontium) from drifting away from "normal" levels, then smaller changes may be adequate.
Previous articles on water changes have "shown" that small water changes are not useful, and have sometimes left the impression that even many small water changes are not beneficial. It is also "common knowledge" among many reef aquarists that continuous water changes (where water is added and removed at the same time, usually by automatic pumping) is not very useful "because this removes some of the new water that was just added." As I'll show, these assumptions do not stand up to analysis for typical water change scenarios. Consequently, whether choosing to change a lot of water, or only a little, and whether it is done continually, daily, or only rarely, more water change options are available to aquarists than many realize. These increased options' availability may permit busy aquarists to spend time on other important activities, and less time on water changes, while still accomplishing the same goals.
Read the entire article. It is verry informative.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Its getting close to Holladay time boys and girls just remember who started this informative thread. I like my Lamborghini’s in yellow
reefkprz
Active Member
this is an interesting thread joe, and one I am definatly not able to really participate in as my feeding schedule (5-7 times a day in amounts that would make you think think I was crazy) dictates many waterchanges (25% once a week and 50% once a month), as there is just not any way possible for enough natural biofiltration to handle it all (with current space and equiment limitations), true I skimm the crap out of my tank and have plenty of sand and LR, but the sheer influx of food would overwhelm a tank (in my case) I have slowly built up my massive feeding schedule over time and with my rigorous waterchange schedule I manage it quite well, along with having a rather complete detritivore crew, and macro algaes. my system can handle the food as long as I maintain my waterchange schedule. if I skip a WC or two it doesnt take long for cyanobacteria to take hold and begin to grow.
I will suffice to say, in some case less or more waterchanges would be required, and you cant really use a blanketdefinition and say any sytem can handle one water change every couple months, If I did that my tank would look like a cesspool.
and currently it looks like this
I will suffice to say, in some case less or more waterchanges would be required, and you cant really use a blanketdefinition and say any sytem can handle one water change every couple months, If I did that my tank would look like a cesspool.
and currently it looks like this
socal57che
Active Member
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2871848
Googling "Water Changes In Reef Aquaria by Randy holmes Farley" gets the article.
Read the entire article. It is verry informative.
Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2871740
Ok, I found Randy's article and read through it. I am now working on some of the information sources he cited.
I did. After reading the references cited in the atricle it seems that he (Randy) may be in the minority. Bob Fenner's article that was referenced also suggested larger water changes rather than lots if tiny ones, though that's not what the article was actually about.
The info is great, but if it's not entirely accurate then it's worthless. All the graphs in the world won't change the fact that our systems continue to create toxic waste that needs to be removed at a rate greater than (or at least equal to) the production rate. While the pictures were pretty, Randy had a hard time convincing me that his data was correct.
Knowing our systems requirements is where the answer lies, IMO. I'm sure that systems with a small load would be just fine switching a gallon a day, but larger water changes are working and until I find otherwise, I will continue with the current schedule. We do still have our 55 that is currently empty. Maybe I could set it up and try the small constant water change method to see if it is truly as effective as larger water changes. My wife has been begging to set it up for a year, now.
http:///forum/post/2871848
Googling "Water Changes In Reef Aquaria by Randy holmes Farley" gets the article.
Read the entire article. It is verry informative.
Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2871740
Ok, I found Randy's article and read through it. I am now working on some of the information sources he cited.
I did. After reading the references cited in the atricle it seems that he (Randy) may be in the minority. Bob Fenner's article that was referenced also suggested larger water changes rather than lots if tiny ones, though that's not what the article was actually about.
The info is great, but if it's not entirely accurate then it's worthless. All the graphs in the world won't change the fact that our systems continue to create toxic waste that needs to be removed at a rate greater than (or at least equal to) the production rate. While the pictures were pretty, Randy had a hard time convincing me that his data was correct.
Knowing our systems requirements is where the answer lies, IMO. I'm sure that systems with a small load would be just fine switching a gallon a day, but larger water changes are working and until I find otherwise, I will continue with the current schedule. We do still have our 55 that is currently empty. Maybe I could set it up and try the small constant water change method to see if it is truly as effective as larger water changes. My wife has been begging to set it up for a year, now.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2871971
this is an interesting thread joe, and one I am definatly not able to really participate in as my feeding schedule (5-7 times a day in amounts that would make you think think I was crazy) dictates many waterchanges (25% once a week and 50% once a month), as there is just not any way possible for enough natural biofiltration to handle it all (with current space and equiment limitations), true I skimm the crap out of my tank and have plenty of sand and LR, but the sheer influx of food would overwhelm a tank (in my case) I have slowly built up my massive feeding schedule over time and with my rigorous waterchange schedule I manage it quite well, along with having a rather complete detritivore crew, and macro algaes. my system can handle the food as long as I maintain my waterchange schedule. if I skip a WC or two it doesnt take long for cyanobacteria to take hold and begin to grow.
I will suffice to say, in some case less or more waterchanges would be required, and you cant really use a blanketdefinition and say any sytem can handle one water change every couple months, If I did that my tank would look like a cesspool.
and currently it looks like this
Reef as usual anything you bring to the table at any time is informative
http:///forum/post/2871971
this is an interesting thread joe, and one I am definatly not able to really participate in as my feeding schedule (5-7 times a day in amounts that would make you think think I was crazy) dictates many waterchanges (25% once a week and 50% once a month), as there is just not any way possible for enough natural biofiltration to handle it all (with current space and equiment limitations), true I skimm the crap out of my tank and have plenty of sand and LR, but the sheer influx of food would overwhelm a tank (in my case) I have slowly built up my massive feeding schedule over time and with my rigorous waterchange schedule I manage it quite well, along with having a rather complete detritivore crew, and macro algaes. my system can handle the food as long as I maintain my waterchange schedule. if I skip a WC or two it doesnt take long for cyanobacteria to take hold and begin to grow.
I will suffice to say, in some case less or more waterchanges would be required, and you cant really use a blanketdefinition and say any sytem can handle one water change every couple months, If I did that my tank would look like a cesspool.
and currently it looks like this
Reef as usual anything you bring to the table at any time is informative
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2871994
Reef as usual anything you bring to the table at any time is informative
thanks joe I appreciate that.
http:///forum/post/2871994
Reef as usual anything you bring to the table at any time is informative
thanks joe I appreciate that.
socal57che
Active Member
I'm a little surprised that Guy hasn't chimed in. Bang, what are your thoughts?
Hi RKZ. Nice to hear from you.
Hi RKZ. Nice to hear from you.
ameno
Active Member
I would have to agree that the 1% a day change is not the fix all for all circumstances. If your tank is in destress such as at a high toxic level then something else needs to be done, frequent and larger water changes maybe what's needed to get things back in check. In some systems such as ReefkprZ's case the 1% a day would not be feasible. But such as in my case were I have a small bioload and good filtration and my main objective is to replemish used trace eliments, I think the 1% would be a good way to go. Right now I do 10% monthly change and it works for me. But my future plans is to go with a auto change of 1% a day, this would give me a larger amout of new saltwater a month then I have now. At 1% a day only a very small amount of the new water is being changed out on a daily basis. For instance on a 100 gal. system, day one you replace 1% of old or one gal. with new water, on day two you remove 1% of the 1% of new water, day three you would remove 1% of the 2% of new water, and as time goes by some of this first new water is now older water, so at the end of a month you have taken out a very small part of the new water that you are adding.
I believe doing it this way helps keep your tank parameters more constant then the larger all of a sudden change would do.
Anyway thats just my view on it.
I believe doing it this way helps keep your tank parameters more constant then the larger all of a sudden change would do.
Anyway thats just my view on it.
reefkprz
Active Member
I remember in my old 45g tank (about 2+ years ago) there was a time when I was getting salt mix so cheap that I was doing a 5g water change every day, I tell you what, I have never had corals grow faster than at that time, I did this for several months and I think the pristine water with constant influx of water kept the parameters so stable and ideal that it didnt really matter what I did to the tank because a daily 20% change didnt allow much to accumulate or get depleted at all. if I could still do that on every system i had I still would. without hesitation.