water changes my view

socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Come on Spanko...
give us the 4000!
Hey Joe, your post just got moved...
Now none of the noobs will ever see it.
nevermind, the ghost is still there.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2870027
So Joe, are you advocating, or suggesting, that to mature our systems need to have the ability to allow the anaerobic bacteria to multiply via a build up in nitrate? And that this build up is possible by a less frequent water change schedule, providing of course the tank already had the ability and bacteria needed to convert ammonia and nitrite? If so what is the affect on our coral and other livestock or are you suggesting that the cycle of a tank prior to adding livestock coral should be even a longer period of time? Perhaps that the addition of fish after the conventional wisdom of a 6 or so week time frame cycle in an effort to build nitrates to "mature the tank" for coral somewhere farther out in time?
No no no what I am saying is this, but first let me state that before we get to nitrates we need to brake down organic mater via nitrification as you know so the cycle is already complete by that point but if we remove all nitrates via frequent water changes we inhibit the growth of anaerobic bacteria do to the lack of “food” thus holding our tank hostage to frequent water changes to prevent a nitrate spike rather then giving ourselves the safety net of a good growth of anaerobic bacteria
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Okay and in your experience is there a time frame or an indicator that allows us to monitor this anaerobe build up to see if the colony is of sufficient size or nitrate reducing capability? Or is it the anecdotal wisdom that says "I have run my tank for years only doing X amount of water changes at X frequency" that we should be experimenting ourselves with to see where that sweet spot is in our system? All this assuming that we are testing our systems for nitrate on some type of regular basis to know what levels we have. And in that same vain is there a level of nitrate at which you would say damn the buildup of anaerobes, full speed ahead with a water change.
Hee Hee, and is there enough anaerobic area in our tanks with a conventional shallow sand bed and 1.5 lbs. per gallon of live rock, or do we need to have a deep sand bed, refugium with macro algae or Xenia etc. for nitrate export via harvesting. No doubt this Nirvana like balance can be achieved, but what are the indicators that we have progressing towards it or have "arrived"?
Hee Hee makes me want to add at the end " oh enlightened one"
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Happy 4000th post Henry!

I don't know how we can tell, but there is a thread over on the really big reef forum depicting a 35+ year old reef. He may know the answer to the nirvana inquisition.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
I am honored that in a florida joe thread I have reached the Nirvana of the elusive 4000th post. Thank you for allowing this "oh enlightened one"
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
I just briefly browsed through this thread. I'll put my .02 in on it. First off, I think the research that was done on metals was somewhat controversial, seems like Pro or Farley one has an article with some of their concerns about it. But it has been a while since I ran across that and don't recall exactly. Definitely there were some salt mixes that were of concern. Maybe it was that the article was just old and salt mixes have advanced.
Like I say I cant recall exactly. Somebody pick that ball up and run with it? Also according to Randy Holmes Farley, the sizes and frequency of doing water changes isn't whats important so much as doing them. Based on doing 30% monthly. In other words, if you have 100 gallons of column, it doesn't matter that much if you do 30 gallons at once, 15 gallons twice a month, or 1 gallon a day. But just doing them. Now, with that said. I haven't done a water change on my 135 since July. when I did a series of changes that amounted to 100 gallons. I am very much do one now. Also I'll add that just changing the water is good, but you should try to remove as much crap as is safely possible.Dusting and stirring up the detritus on the rocks is generally a safe thing to do and should be done IMO at each change.
Now, on the nitrate issue. Any properly set up system that is properly stocked/fed will not have nitrate issues. If you have enough LR and an adequate, well cared for NNR sand bed, your nitrates should always remain low if not 0. Stirring the SB gently is necessary for proper function. It should have ever be done very carefully. Gently stirring the top portion of it only in small sections at a time. Being careful not to stir it up, but just stir it around...Make sense? If you are doing water changes to remove nitrates, then of course you are limiting the size of anaerobic bacteria in your system. However if you LR and other NNR mechanisms are not adequate this is a necessary evil. Each system is unique in it's own individual needs. This should be taken in account. Just as it takes up to 6 weeks for aerobic bacteria to grow large enough to handle the DT's needs, it will take anaerobic bacteria some time to grow also. Possibly 3-4 weeks. Again this depends. Additionally, it can become depleted if there is no food (nitrates) for it to process. because you are removing them via WC's.
Now, I'm not advocating not doing water changes at all. Definitely they are beneficial to our systems. And should be done.
Just my .02 worth.
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
Nicely put Joe…

Two all the nonbelievers, try it in a small set-up and prove Joe wrong! Or perhaps right…. Or are you afraid
 
renogaw

renogaw

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2869928
The nitrate level gets higher because with your constant water change in such a small tank you are not letting your anaerobic bacteria grow due to the low nitrate levels
but how did my nitrates constantly go up in my 90 gallon, with chaeto and a DSB in the fuge, when i didn't do my water changes? Why do i have cyano in my fuge and no where else? i gotta have nitrate issues still but the.
also, anaerobic bacteria isn't going to grow unless there are anaerobic conditions, such as DSB
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2870607
but how did my nitrates constantly go up in my 90 gallon, with chaeto and a DSB in the fuge, when i didn't do my water changes? Why do i have cyano in my fuge and no where else? i gotta have nitrate issues still but the.
also, anaerobic bacteria isn't going to grow unless there are anaerobic conditions, such as DSB

In the core of you LR you should have anaerobic areas also. This is why larger pieces, over 6in in diameter are important. Weight and porosity also. Too dense and large and water cant permeate it. To small and porous it will not be anaerobic. As far as the DSB goes, if you do have anaerobic zones, it may not be of sufficient size. Deepening it can help as well as lengthening it. I had the same situation on my 135, I added 2in of course aragonite and started a regimen of stirring. After about 4 weeks, they began to drop. If water cannot permeate through the SB it will not process it.
The cyano accumulates there because you are depositing organic matter there. Which is what you want to do. however, something is amuck with your DSB. correct this problem, by increasing it's depth, and/or adjusting the flow to be appropriate. Most likely it is low and not processing the nitrates.
 
renogaw

renogaw

Active Member
i've got a mag5 in my sump. should be decent flow for a 30 gallon homemade sump/refugium. dsb is 6-7" but mainly small stuff... i've got a ton of fine cc, almost large sand actually, should i mix some in?
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
wattsupdoc;2870408 said:
I just briefly browsed through this thread. I'll put my .02 in on it. First off, I think the research that was done on metals was somewhat controversial, seems like Pro or Farley one has an article with some of their concerns about it. But it has been a while since I ran across that and don't recall exactly. Definitely there were some salt mixes that were of concern. Maybe it was that the article was just old and salt mixes have advanced.
Like I say I cant recall exactly. Somebody pick that ball up and run with it? Also according to Randy Holmes Farley, the sizes and frequency of doing water changes isn't whats important so much as doing them. Based on doing 30% monthly. In other words, if you have 100 gallons of column, it doesn't matter that much if you do 30 gallons at once, 15 gallons twice a month, or 1 gallon a day. But just doing them. Now, with that said. I haven't done a water change on my 135 since July. when I did a series of changes that amounted to 100 gallons. I am very much do one now. Also I'll add that just changing the water is good, but you should try to remove as much crap as is safely possible.Dusting and stirring up the detritus on the rocks is generally a safe thing to do and should be done IMO at each change.
Now, on the nitrate issue. Any properly set up system that is properly stocked/fed will not have nitrate issues. If you have enough LR and an adequate, well cared for NNR sand bed, your nitrates should always remain low if not 0. Stirring the SB gently is necessary for proper function. It should have ever be done very carefully. Gently stirring the top portion of it only in small sections at a time. Being careful not to stir it up, but just stir it around...Make sense? If you are doing water changes to remove nitrates, then of course you are limiting the size of anaerobic bacteria in your system. However if you LR and other NNR mechanisms are not adequate this is a necessary evil. Each system is unique in it's own individual needs. This should be taken in account. Just as it takes up to 6 weeks for aerobic bacteria to grow large enough to handle the DT's needs, it will take anaerobic bacteria some time to grow also. Possibly 3-4 weeks. Again this depends. Additionally, it can become depleted if there is no food (nitrates) for it to process. because you are removing them via WC's.
Now, I'm not advocating not doing water changes at all. Definitely they are beneficial to our
Click to expand...
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
The only thing I would like to adds is doing 30g at one time in only the same as 1g a day if you are doing a water change for prophylactic reasons. That is why one must be attuned to their tank. You have to know when to do a major water change to add dilution to a specific problem. I don’t think 1g a day is a good idea for the new hobbyist TE]
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2870885
The only thing I would like to adds is doing 30g at one time in only the same as 1g a day if you are doing a water change for prophylactic reasons. That is why one must be attuned to their tank. You have to know when to do a major water change to add dilution to a specific problem. I don’t think 1g a day is a good idea for the new hobbyist TE]
Good point, Joe. If we change out 1 gallon of water we dilute the tank water. The next water change removes part of the water from the first water change thus lessening the desired effect. Each subsequent water change removes part of the clean water that was just added. A large water change is far more effective means of dilution/export as it removes more dirty water than lots of small ones.
Knowing what your tank needs is the key.
 
ameno

ameno

Active Member
According to the research done by Randy Holmes Farley Their is little difference in changing out one gal. a day versis 30 gal. a month as far as adding and subtracting new and old water, He has a graph made up somewere on his tread showing how it all plays out, One advantage is less of a sudden change in the tank water by doing it gradually.
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2870965
Good point, Joe. If we change out 1 gallon of water we dilute the tank water. The next water change removes part of the water from the first water change thus lessening the desired effect. Each subsequent water change removes part of the clean water that was just added. A large water change is far more effective means of dilution/export as it removes more dirty water than lots of small ones.
Knowing what your tank needs is the key.
THIS IS ACTUALLY UNTRUE! Yes you are removing some of the new, but it is in NOSHAPE FORM OR FASHION "far" better to do larger ones at one time. One might think so but as I stated it doesnt really matter, doing them is whats important.....
Originally Posted by ameno
http:///forum/post/2871063
According to the research done by Randy Holmes Farley Their is little difference in changing out one gal. a day versis 30 gal. a month as far as adding and subtracting new and old water, He has a graph made up somewere on his tread showing how it all plays out, One advantage is less of a sudden change in the tank water by doing it gradually.

THIS IS COMPLETLY ACCURATE! Hi ameno!
Long time no see, good to see that orangatang.
 
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