Welcome to the wild wild....

[darthtang aw]

  There's more deaths and injuries from guns own by those who hide behind the guise of the 2nd Amendment than there are gang bangers.
Proof please.
Because when I ran a google search, this is what I found.

So what is happening in Chicago to drive it to the gates of hell ahead of Zimbabwe and Rwanda?
A breakdown of the Chicago killing fields shows that 83% of those murdered in Chicago last year had criminal records. In Philly, it’s 75%. In Milwaukee it’s 77% percent. In New Orleans, it’s 64%. In Baltimore, it’s 91%. Many were felons who had served time. And as many as 80% of the homicides were gang related.
Chicago’s problem isn’t guns; it’s gangs. Gun control efforts in Chicago or any other major city are doomed because gangs represent organized crime networks which stretch down to Mexico, and trying to cut off their gun supply will be as effective as trying to cut off their drug supply.
America’s murder rate isn’t the work of the suburban and rural homeowners who shop for guns at sporting goods stores and at gun shows, and whom news shows profile after every shooting, but by the gangs embedded in the urban areas controlled by the Democratic machine. The gangs who drive up America’s murder rate look nothing like the occasional mentally ill suburban white kid who goes off his medication and decides to shoot up a school. Lanza, like most serial killers, is a media aberration, not the norm.
National murder statistics show that blacks are far more likely to be killers than whites and they are also far more likely to be killed. The single largest cause of homicides is the argument. 4th on the list is juvenile gang activity with 676 murders, which combined with various flavors of gangland killings takes us nearly to the 1,000 mark. America has more gangland murders than Sierra Leone, Eritrea and Puerto Rico have murders.
Our national murder rate is not some incomprehensible mystery that can only be attributed to the inanimate tools, the steel, brass and wood that do the work. It is largely the work of adult males from age 18 to 39 with criminal records killing other males of that same age and criminal past.
If this were going on in Rwanda, El Salvador or Sierra Leone, we would have no trouble knowing what to make of it, and silly pearl-clutching nonsense about gun control would never even come up. But this is Chicago, it’s Baltimore, it’s Philly and NOLA; and so we refuse to see that our major cities are in the same boat as some of the worst trouble spots in the world.
Lanza and Newtown are comforting aberrations. They allow us to take refuge in the fantasy that homicides in America are the work of the occasional serial killer practicing his dark art in one of those perfect small towns that always show up in murder mysteries or Stephen King novels. They fool us into thinking that there is something American about our murder rate that can be traced to hunting season, patriotism and bad mothers.
But go to Chicago or Baltimore. Go where the killings really happen and the illusion comes apart.
There is a war going on in America between gangs of young men who bear an uncanny resemblance to their counterparts in Sierra Leone or El Salvador. They live like them, they fight for control of the streets like them and they kill like them.
America’s horrific murder rate is a result of the transformation of major American cities into Sierra Leone, Somalia, Rwanda and El Salvador. Our murder rate now largely consists of criminals killing criminals.
As David Kennedy, the head of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control, put it, “The majority of homicide victims have extensive criminal histories. This is simply the way that the world of criminal homicide works. It’s a fact.”
.

 

[darthtang aw]

10% of all murders are done by children between the age of 14-17. Under the legal age to own or possess a firearm. Gun laws haven't helped.
40% are done by people under the age of 21, the legal age to own a handgun. Gun laws didnt stop this statistic either.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541888
Proof please.
Because when I ran a google search, this is what I found.
LOL. Why is it you gun zealots always reference Chicago to support your little reasons to carry guns wherever you go? Why don't you look at the statistics in your own backyard? You know, those Lilly White neighborhoods of Albuquerque and Santa Fe. Of course the statistics are high in cities like Detroit and Chicago, because they do have a large population of low income/poverty level minorities. Desperate times begat desperate measures. You know that Survival Of The Fittest thing. 95% of all firearms purchased are legally done so through normal purchases at any store that sells them. The same individuals that use them in a criminal manner are capable of passing the lackadaisical and useless "FBI background checks" to purchase them. Shoot, they can walk into a gun show and buy one off of the many individuals just walking around with their personal firearms they want to sell, and don't even show an ID to buy it. That, or they buy one off of Craigslist and in the Walmart parking lot if they find the right seller. The only time they change from a responsible to irresponsible gun owner, is when they do use it to rob someone, assault someone, or in the case of these two morons in the movie theater and Quickie Mart parking lot, the same responsible person just like yourself that decided they had some "Stand Your Ground" right to pull a firearm and shoot someone, instead of doing the common sense thing and backing away or diffusing the situation in some other manner.

Where did you get your statistics? So where did these kids get the guns? You implying there's these illegal gun shops all over the country that will sell guns to kids like candy in a candy store? No, they get their guns from people like YOU. Their idiot parents who stock up on firearms, then do nothing put stick them in a closet with all the ammo. Then when the kid does use them in a criminal manner, like Columbine, the parents are given a free pass as far as being criminally prosecuted.

Of course the current gun laws can stop these types of crimes. One that can is the registration of every single firearm purchased. You buy a gun, it gets registered to you as the primary owner. If that weapon is used in a criminal manner, your fault, someone else's fault, YOU will be prosecuted for the crime regardless. You want to sell that firearm, it gets legally transferred to the new owner. You do it the same way you do a car. Your car has a title, so can your firearm. There's NOTHING in the 2nd Amendment that says you can't do this. PERIOD. Having to track where your firearms are at doesn't "infringe" your right to own them. Oh wait, there's that paranoia thing you'll spout. "There's no way I want the Feds to know how many guns I own and what type they are". That's because we KNOW if they did that, then the next step would be confiscation if they REALLY wanted to. Of course that's your typical Republican mindset. Always taking the fatalistic approach to everything. "If it can happen, it WILL happen. I know it will because morons like Hannity and Glenn Beck say they will."

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild#post_3541882
Now God passed the 2nd Amendment? I thought he was the one who gave Moses that one Commandment - Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Better a Grass Roots Democrat than some Wacko Republicant who looks over his shoulder every waking moment worrying he has to play Quick Draw McGraw against anyone he feels threatened by. Go look up the statistics. There's more deaths and injuries from guns own by those who hide behind the guise of the 2nd Amendment than there are gang bangers.
You claim about the number of people killed by responsible gun owners verses grassroots Democrats is absurd.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541895
LOL. Why is it you gun zealots always reference Chicago to support your little reasons to carry guns wherever you go? Why don't you look at the statistics in your own backyard? You know, those Lilly White neighborhoods of Albuquerque and Santa Fe. Of course the statistics are high in cities like Detroit and Chicago, because they do have a large population of low income/poverty level minorities. Desperate times begat desperate measures. You know that Survival Of The Fittest thing. 95% of all firearms purchased are legally done so through normal purchases at any store that sells them. The same individuals that use them in a criminal manner are capable of passing the lackadaisical and useless "FBI background checks" to purchase them. Shoot, they can walk into a gun show and buy one off of the many individuals just walking around with their personal firearms they want to sell, and don't even show an ID to buy it. That, or they buy one off of Craigslist and in the Walmart parking lot if they find the right seller. The only time they change from a responsible to irresponsible gun owner, is when they do use it to rob someone, assault someone, or in the case of these two morons in the movie theater and Quickie Mart parking lot, the same responsible person just like yourself that decided they had some "Stand Your Ground" right to pull a firearm and shoot someone, instead of doing the common sense thing and backing away or diffusing the situation in some other manner.

Where did you get your statistics? So where did these kids get the guns? You implying there's these illegal gun shops all over the country that will sell guns to kids like candy in a candy store? No, they get their guns from people like YOU. Their idiot parents who stock up on firearms, then do nothing put stick them in a closet with all the ammo. Then when the kid does use them in a criminal manner, like Columbine, the parents are given a free pass as far as being criminally prosecuted.

Of course the current gun laws can stop these types of crimes. One that can is the registration of every single firearm purchased. You buy a gun, it gets registered to you as the primary owner. If that weapon is used in a criminal manner, your fault, someone else's fault, YOU will be prosecuted for the crime regardless. You want to sell that firearm, it gets legally transferred to the new owner. You do it the same way you do a car. Your car has a title, so can your firearm. There's NOTHING in the 2nd Amendment that says you can't do this. PERIOD. Having to track where your firearms are at doesn't "infringe" your right to own them. Oh wait, there's that paranoia thing you'll spout. "There's no way I want the Feds to know how many guns I own and what type they are". That's because we KNOW if they did that, then the next step would be confiscation if they REALLY wanted to. Of course that's your typical Republican mindset. Always taking the fatalistic approach to everything. "If it can happen, it WILL happen. I know it will because morons like Hannity and Glenn Beck say they will."

Again bionic you show your utter ignorance of the fact. You question Darth's numbers and then throw out your own without any substantiation....Now that's funny
FACT 1. Craigslist does not allow selling of firearms. They will even pull adds for bullets if raw slugs are labeled as such, let alone live ammo.
Fact 2. The majority of sellers at gunshows are FFL holders AND ANY FFL licensed seller must do a background check on a purchaser no matter where the gun is purchased.
Fact 3. Illinois requires all guns sales, including those at gun shows be subject to the background checkl
Fact 4. Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, will report data from a 2004 survey of inmates in state prisons in a chapter in a book titled “Reducing Gun Violence in America” The offenders were incarcerated from crimes committed with handguns, and this is how they reported how they obtained the guns:

Licensed gun dealer: 11 percent
Friends or family: 39.5 percent
“The street:” 37.5 percent
Stolen gun: 9.9 percent
Gun show/Flea market: 1.7 percent

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-stale-claim-that-40-percent-of-gun-sales-lack-background-checks/2013/01/20/e42ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html

http://www.craigslist.org/about/prohibited

 

[aggiealum]

Again bionic you show your utter ignorance of the fact. You question Darth's numbers and then throw out your own without any substantiation....Now that's funny
FACT 1. Craigslist does not allow selling of firearms. They will even pull adds for bullets if raw slugs are labeled as such, let alone live ammo.
Fact 2. The majority of sellers at gunshows are FFL holders AND ANY FFL licensed seller must do a background check on a purchaser no matter where the gun is purchased.
Fact 3. Illinois requires all guns sales, including those at gun shows be subject to the background checkl
Fact 4. Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, will report data from a 2004 survey of inmates in state prisons in a chapter in a book titled “Reducing Gun Violence in America” The offenders were incarcerated from crimes committed with handguns, and this is how they reported how they obtained the guns:
Licensed gun dealer: 11 percent
Friends or family: 39.5 percent
“The street:” 37.5 percent
Stolen gun: 9.9 percent
Gun show/Flea market: 1.7 percent
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-stale-claim-that-40-percent-of-gun-sales-lack-background-checks/2013/01/20/e42ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html
http://www.craigslist.org/about/prohibited
Again bionic you show your utter ignorance of the fact. You question Darth's numbers and then throw out your own without any substantiation....Now that's funny
FACT 1. Craigslist does not allow selling of firearms. They will even pull adds for bullets if raw slugs are labeled as such, let alone live ammo.
Fact 2. The majority of sellers at gunshows are FFL holders AND ANY FFL licensed seller must do a background check on a purchaser no matter where the gun is purchased.
Fact 3. Illinois requires all guns sales, including those at gun shows be subject to the background checkl
Fact 4. Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, will report data from a 2004 survey of inmates in state prisons in a chapter in a book titled “Reducing Gun Violence in America” The offenders were incarcerated from crimes committed with handguns, and this is how they reported how they obtained the guns:
Licensed gun dealer: 11 percent
Friends or family: 39.5 percent
“The street:” 37.5 percent
Stolen gun: 9.9 percent
Gun show/Flea market: 1.7 percent
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
/2013/01/20/e42ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-stale-claim-that-40-percent-of-gun-sales-lack-background-checks/2013/01/20/e42ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html
http://www.craigslist.org/about/prohibited
LMFAO. You and this Darth character are two peas in a pod. When you have no logical rebuttal, you resort to intimidation by referring me to this Bionic character. What a troll.
As for your ignorance to how guns are acquired:
Can't sell guns on Craigslist?
http://houston.craigslist.org/for/4368844462.html
Don't like Craigslist? Just go here. Show me where these people are requiring FFL background checks:
http://www.armslist.com/
When's the last time you went to a gun show? Anyone wanting to sell their personal firearms can take them into a gun show, and sell them to anyone they want WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECK. Those "FFL Dealers" you claim have to do background checks? LOLOLOL.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/10/17689167-background-checks-for-guns-what-you-need-to-know?lite
I went to this antique auction last week that I patronage from time to time. On the block that night was a collection of about 45 guns from this man's estate. The auctioneer joked that his widow brought all the guns to his place in her Audi. In the collection were several Browning shotguns, Winchester 30-30's, Luger P38, some old Colt .45 handguns, a Garand M-1, a Weatherby .257 hunting rifle, a Smith&Wesson .357, a Winchester .22 handgun, and a Walther .308. They sold for what I thought was retail prices, but at the end of the auction, the buyer went up to the counter, paid for his purchase, and walked out the door. While watching the auction, I was standing next to this guy, and both of us were shaking our heads about the prices. I started talking to him, and found he was a regular to the auction. I asked him how often they have guns selling there, and he said they come up occasionally from these estate auctions the auctioneer hosts every now and then. He then went on to say that he had a $750 lesson when he purchased what he thought was a M1 Carbine, as that was how is was been auctioned as. When he gets the thing home, he starts taking a closer inspection of the weapon, and finds this selector switch on the side for Full Auto. Come to find out, it was a Full Auto M2 Carbine. He said he had a friend that was an ATF officer, so he called him and asked him if the gun was legal to own. His friend ran the serial number and said the weapon was never registered. He told him that it was probably a military-issued firearm, and whoever the previous owner was simply brought it back home with him after the war. The weapon was essentially labeled "stolen", and couldn't be registered even if he had the proper license to do so. All the guy could do with the firearm was turn it into the FBI, no questions asked. He went and talked to the auctioneer about it, and all he got was a "Sorry, we sell items "as is". When it comes to guns, we don't verify their authenticity, as they come from private collections."
And the Illinois law is a bad thing?
As far as your statistics on gun sales - you're taking the word of a known felon as to where they get their guns? You seriously think that of the millions of firearms sold in this country, that over 37% of the are sold "on the street"? Really. A third of the guns sold in this country are illegal. That's what you're saying. Gullible is a word that comes to mind.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541913
LMFAO. You and this Darth character are two peas in a pod. When you have no logical rebuttal, you resort to intimidation by referring me to this Bionic character. What a troll.
As for your ignorance to how guns are acquired:
Can't sell guns on Craigslist?
http://houston.craigslist.org/for/4368844462.html
Don't like Craigslist? Just go here. Show me where these people are requiring FFL background checks:
http://www.armslist.com/
When's the last time you went to a gun show? Anyone wanting to sell their personal firearms can take them into a gun show, and sell them to anyone they want WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECK. Those "FFL Dealers" you claim have to do background checks? LOLOLOL.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/10/17689167-background-checks-for-guns-what-you-need-to-know?lite
I went to this antique auction last week that I patronage from time to time. On the block that night was a collection of about 45 guns from this man's estate. The auctioneer joked that his widow brought all the guns to his place in her Audi. In the collection were several Browning shotguns, Winchester 30-30's, Luger P38, some old Colt .45 handguns, a Garand M-1, a Weatherby .257 hunting rifle, a Smith&Wesson .357, a Winchester .22 handgun, and a Walther .308. They sold for what I thought was retail prices, but at the end of the auction, the buyer went up to the counter, paid for his purchase, and walked out the door. While watching the auction, I was standing next to this guy, and both of us were shaking our heads about the prices. I started talking to him, and found he was a regular to the auction. I asked him how often they have guns selling there, and he said they come up occasionally from these estate auctions the auctioneer hosts every now and then. He then went on to say that he had a $750 lesson when he purchased what he thought was a M1 Carbine, as that was how is was been auctioned as. When he gets the thing home, he starts taking a closer inspection of the weapon, and finds this selector switch on the side for Full Auto. Come to find out, it was a Full Auto M2 Carbine. He said he had a friend that was an ATF officer, so he called him and asked him if the gun was legal to own. His friend ran the serial number and said the weapon was never registered. He told him that it was probably a military-issued firearm, and whoever the previous owner was simply brought it back home with him after the war. The weapon was essentially labeled "stolen", and couldn't be registered even if he had the proper license to do so. All the guy could do with the firearm was turn it into the FBI, no questions asked. He went and talked to the auctioneer about it, and all he got was a "Sorry, we sell items "as is". When it comes to guns, we don't verify their authenticity, as they come from private collections."
And the Illinois law is a bad thing?
As far as your statistics on gun sales - you're taking the word of a known felon as to where they get their guns? You seriously think that of the millions of firearms sold in this country, that over 37% of the are sold "on the street"? Really. A third of the guns sold in this country are illegal. That's what you're saying. Gullible is a word that comes to mind.
One gun on all of craigslist for that area, i did the search LOL!. One will slip through every once in a while but it isn't allowed and is a lousy source to try to buy a gun. In any case you made the claim about craigslist and it's a total fabrication, just like most of your claims.

And you now question that 37% of gun sales happen on the street when your craigslist claim was accompanied by "or the parking lot at Walmart" LOL! I guess your reading comprehension isn't what it should be. "The offenders were incarcerated from crimes committed with handguns, and this is how they reported how they obtained the guns" What that means is of those convicted of gun crime 37% got them off the street, I'll put my trust in the guy from John Hopkins over your unsourced claims.

 

[aggiealum]

One gun on all of craigslist for that area, i did the search LOL!. One will slip through every once in a while but it isn't allowed and is a lousy source to try to buy a gun. In any case you made the claim about craigslist and it's a total fabrication, just like most of your claims.
And you now question that 37% of gun sales happen on the street when your craigslist claim was accompanied by "or the parking lot at Walmart" LOL! I guess your reading comprehension isn't what it should be. "The offenders were incarcerated from crimes committed with handguns, and this is how they reported how they obtained the guns" What that means is of those convicted of gun crime 37% got them off the street, I'll put my trust in the guy from John Hopkins over your unsourced claims.
Define "The street". Where do those wanting to commit crimes know where to go to buy these guns on "the street"? So you're saying all these crimes where people are robbing quickie stores, burger joints, or some other small business, they're using a gun they bought from one of these street dealers? So every city in this country has some specific place people can go to stock up on illegal guns? Riiight. Sounds like someone's watching too many Law & Order TV shows.
the reference to Walmart was from a story that Dateline or 20/20 did some time ago where they were meeting gun sellers in Walmart parking lots, buying handguns and even a .50 caliber sniper rifle.
Bottom line, guns are readily available to purchase without having to get one from some licensed dealer. As long as that continues, you'll never be able to reduce the ever-increasing gun violence in the country. For every fluff piece feel good story where some NRA card carrying gun holder takes out one of those bad guys that presumably bought their gun off "the street", there are thousands of other crimes committed by individuals who at one time purchasedr their firearm through legal channels, and ended up using that weapon to kill or maim another human being, whether intentional or not. Your basically think that's an acceptable risk or loss, as long as it allows you to keep pack in' your gun wherever you go. So in your mind, the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, which ultimately will cause a total denigration of our society as a whole.

 

[reefraff]

Oh, and the claim about the person buying an M2 at auction.... The guy was a liar or an idiot because the estate would have been liable for the illegal transfer of a class A weapon. \
Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541937
Define "The street". Where do those wanting to commit crimes know where to go to buy these guns on "the street"? So you're saying all these crimes where people are robbing quickie stores, burger joints, or some other small business, they're using a gun they bought from one of these street dealers? So every city in this country has some specific place people can go to stock up on illegal guns? Riiight. Sounds like someone's watching too many Law & Order TV shows.
the reference to Walmart was from a story that Dateline or 20/20 did some time ago where they were meeting gun sellers in Walmart parking lots, buying handguns and even a .50 caliber sniper rifle.
Bottom line, guns are readily available to purchase without having to get one from some licensed dealer. As long as that continues, you'll never be able to reduce the ever-increasing gun violence in the country. For every fluff piece feel good story where some NRA card carrying gun holder takes out one of those bad guys that presumably bought their gun off "the street", there are thousands of other crimes committed by individuals who at one time purchasedr their firearm through legal channels, and ended up using that weapon to kill or maim another human being, whether intentional or not. Your basically think that's an acceptable risk or loss, as long as it allows you to keep pack in' your gun wherever you go. So in your mind, the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, which ultimately will cause a total denigration of our society as a whole.

Do you never tire of making unsubstantiated claims?

A study released Tuesday by the government's Bureau of Justice Statistics found that gun-related homicides dropped from 18,253 in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011. That's a 39 percent reduction.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/gun-homicides-down-since-1990s-report-shows-91053.html#ixzz2wqEuOCLQ

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/gun-homicides-down-since-1990s-report-shows-91053.html
Not being a street thug I don't know where to illegally buy guns "on the street" which I'll assume is those who specialize in buying guns for gang bangers. Drug dealers provide 28% according to the justice department. And again, places like Chicago and DC make it hard for lawful citizens to access guns yet has some of the highest rate of gun crimes in the country so that obviously isn't the answer. One good start would be to make any crime committed with a gun a felony with a 10 year minimum sentence. Of course the Democrats will never go for it because a lot of their base would lose the right to vote and we can't have that

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541944
Oh, and the claim about the person buying an M2 at auction.... The guy was a liar or an idiot because the estate would have been liable for the illegal transfer of a class A weapon. \

Do you never tire of making unsubstantiated claims?

A study released Tuesday by the government's Bureau of Justice Statistics found that gun-related homicides dropped from 18,253 in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011. That's a 39 percent reduction.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/gun-homicides-down-since-1990s-report-shows-91053.html#ixzz2wqEuOCLQ

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/gun-homicides-down-since-1990s-report-shows-91053.html
Not being a street thug I don't know where to illegally buy guns "on the street" which I'll assume is those who specialize in buying guns for gang bangers. Drug dealers provide 28% according to the justice department. And again, places like Chicago and DC make it hard for lawful citizens to access guns yet has some of the highest rate of gun crimes in the country so that obviously isn't the answer. One good start would be to make any crime committed with a gun a felony with a 10 year minimum sentence. Of course the Democrats will never go for it because a lot of their base would lose the right to vote and we can't have that
The estate obviously had no clue what type of weapon it was. It was part of some guy's personal weapons collection. The auction house specializes in antiques from around the world, but they take consignments from any estate if there's pieces that can sell for a good price. They are clueless when it comes to firearms and what's illegal and what isn't. Go look at an M1 Carbine and M2 Carbine, and you tell me what the major differences are. Look at a Colt AR-15 Lower Receiver. You can still buy those with the lever present to switch between semi-auto and full auto. It just doesn't work. It's just fortunate that this guy was familiar enough with the weapon to realize what he had. Somebody else could've bought it, and not reported it to the authorities, and had himself a nice little full auto weapon to shoot.

Again with Chicago. Anyone can purchase a gun after applying and receiving FOID card. If that's your definition of "making it hard to get guns", then you're just splitting hairs. You can also buy long guns without the card. As to "street guns", where do you think they got those in the first place? They just buy them legally, then sell them off to whoever they want, which essentially what happens at gun shows. So here in Houston, your "street gun" is one picked up at the couple of gun shows that run here every month. If someone wants a gun to use in a crime, they simply go to a gun show and buy it from some private seller walking the floor.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541964
The estate obviously had no clue what type of weapon it was. It was part of some guy's personal weapons collection. The auction house specializes in antiques from around the world, but they take consignments from any estate if there's pieces that can sell for a good price. They are clueless when it comes to firearms and what's illegal and what isn't. Go look at an M1 Carbine and M2 Carbine, and you tell me what the major differences are. Look at a Colt AR-15 Lower Receiver. You can still buy those with the lever present to switch between semi-auto and full auto. It just doesn't work. It's just fortunate that this guy was familiar enough with the weapon to realize what he had. Somebody else could've bought it, and not reported it to the authorities, and had himself a nice little full auto weapon to shoot.

Again with Chicago. Anyone can purchase a gun after applying and receiving FOID card. If that's your definition of "making it hard to get guns", then you're just splitting hairs. You can also buy long guns without the card. As to "street guns", where do you think they got those in the first place? They just buy them legally, then sell them off to whoever they want, which essentially what happens at gun shows. So here in Houston, your "street gun" is one picked up at the couple of gun shows that run here every month. If someone wants a gun to use in a crime, they simply go to a gun show and buy it from some private seller walking the floor.
Ever hear the term "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? The estate is still responsible and I think there is zero chance an auction house wouldn't know the law on this. I know someone who has worked for auction houses for years. The subject of guns at auction came up and the rules for selling guns are pretty interesting which is why he said they didn't often sell guns that weren't part of an estate.

And in Chicago you need the state FOID card AND a Chicago permit which requires taking a class which costs 100 to 150 bux and another 100 for the Card itself which is good for 3 years at which time you have to take another abbreviated class and pay the fee again. In addition to that you have to pay a 15.00 per gun registration fee and you have to send in yearly updates on the status of your gun(s)
Yeah, that doesn't make it hard to own a gun in Chicago. Oh, and did I mention as part of that class you have to have range time and there isn't a range within the city of Chicago? Yeah, easy place to exercise your right to bear arms.

 

[darthtang aw]

Lets address this statement first.

I went to this antique auction last week that I patronage from time to time. On the block that night was a collection of about 45 guns from this man's estate. The auctioneer joked that his widow brought all the guns to his place in her Audi. In the collection were several Browning shotguns, Winchester 30-30's, Luger P38, some old Colt .45 handguns, a Garand M-1, a Weatherby .257 hunting rifle, a Smith&Wesson .357, a Winchester .22 handgun, and a Walther .308. They sold for what I thought was retail prices, but at the end of the auction, the buyer went up to the counter, paid for his purchase, and walked out the door. While watching the auction, I was standing next to this guy, and both of us were shaking our heads about the prices. I started talking to him, and found he was a regular to the auction. I asked him how often they have guns selling there, and he said they come up occasionally from these estate auctions the auctioneer hosts every now and then. He then went on to say that he had a $750 lesson when he purchased what he thought was a M1 Carbine, as that was how is was been auctioned as. When he gets the thing home, he starts taking a closer inspection of the weapon, and finds this selector switch on the side for Full Auto. Come to find out, it was a Full Auto M2 Carbine. He said he had a friend that was an ATF officer, so he called him and asked him if the gun was legal to own. His friend ran the serial number and said the weapon was never registered. He told him that it was probably a military-issued firearm, and whoever the previous owner was simply brought it back home with him after the war. The weapon was essentially labeled "stolen", and couldn't be registered even if he had the proper license to do so. All the guy could do with the firearm was turn it into the FBI, no questions asked. He went and talked to the auctioneer about it, and all he got was a "Sorry, we sell items "as is". When it comes to guns, we don't verify their authenticity, as they come from private collections."
The estate obviously had no clue what type of weapon it was. It was part of some guy's personal weapons collection. The auction house specializes in antiques from around the world, but they take consignments from any estate if there's pieces that can sell for a good price. They are clueless when it comes to firearms and what's illegal and what isn't. Go look at an M1 Carbine and M2 Carbine, and you tell me what the major differences are. Look at a Colt AR-15 Lower Receiver. You can still buy those with the lever present to switch between semi-auto and full auto. It just doesn't work. It's just fortunate that this guy was familiar enough with the weapon to realize what he had. Somebody else could've bought it, and not reported it to the authorities, and had himself a nice little full auto weapon to shoot.

Let someone talk long enough and it becomes apparent when they are lying or ignorant of the facts. Either you are lying or this "guy" is lying.
Any M2 carbine would be stamped as such. It would be classified as a machine gun under atf rules. Military M2 that were made from M1 had the receivers restamped. Therefore on the receiver in plain site it would have the M2 stamp on it. The auction house would have seen this as it is hard to miss. Now if it was an M1 that had been converted by a civilian after the war for full auto it could have been kept. The receiver just needed disassembled, and the parts turned into the ATF . The M1 then could have had the original m1 parts or parts kit installed and it would be a legal M1. Why? Because thus unstamped M2 had never been registered as an m2. Thus the guy would have been able to keep it had he had a gunsmith do the conversion. How the guy missed seeing the selector switch when he preinspected the rifle before purchase is beyond me. As it is pretty obvious.
Your auction comment is also wrong and most likely a lie. Any auction house that sells firearms under consignment must transfer all firearms under an FFL. Any auction house that does so without doing this needs to be turned in and reported to the authorities. As they are in violation of the law. The only way an auction house does not need to do ffl transfers is if it is estate sale on the owners property, the auction does not do this as a consignment (they are paid a flat fee for the service of seeking a buyer) and does not take ownership of the weapons. also they only sell guns no more than two days a month. I hope you contact the proper authorities for the blatant violations of law done by the auction house. As a concerned citizen that is your duty. I shall be watching the news in your area to see if you do so.
As to your craiglist link, it is a dead link. So it is clear guns are not to be sold on craigslist.
I will present my links and where my data comes just as soon as you provide the data to back up your claim, that I asked for first.
If you want to start looking though you can start with the federal data base on violent crimes.
I didn't just use chicago neither. I listed several cities. However I compared chicago to albuquerque since you claimed it was due to Chicago having a higher percentage of poor people.
The percentage of those living under the poverty level is a difference of 5%. Albuquerque is 17%, Chicago is 23%. Albuquerque per 100,000 people has a murder rate of 6.3. Chicago is 18.9. That is exactly a 300% increase with only 5% difference in the poverty rate. We open carry here, don't need to register our firearms...etc. Chicago's gun laws are significantly tougher than our own. Hell we make Texas look strict when it comes to guns. Yet our murder rate does not match....even though the poverty is very similar.....Oh, and wait, we are a border state that has to deal with cartel trafficing as well.......go figure.
I will address the rest later if the need arises.

 

[aggiealum]

Ever hear the term "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? The estate is still responsible and I think there is zero chance an auction house wouldn't know the law on this. I know someone who has worked for auction houses for years. The subject of guns at auction came up and the rules for selling guns are pretty interesting which is why he said they didn't often sell guns that weren't part of an estate.
And in Chicago you need the state FOID card AND a Chicago permit which requires taking a class which costs 100 to 150 bux and another 100 for the Card itself which is good for 3 years at which time you have to take another abbreviated class and pay the fee again. In addition to that you have to pay a 15.00 per gun registration fee and you have to send in yearly updates on the status of your gun(s)
Yeah, that doesn't make it hard to own a gun in Chicago. Oh, and did I mention as part of that class you have to have range time and there isn't a range within the city of Chicago? Yeah, easy place to exercise your right to bear arms.
What part of antique auction don't you understand? The estate or owner of the gun that had the auction selling it was probably clueless. The auctioneer said she was an elderly lady that had no clue what kind of guns they were, and what they were worth. Due to the age of the gun, the auctioneer probably classified it as an "antique collectible", and probably didn't do much research on it. At the auction I was at with the 45 or so guns, he just rambled off the manufacturer and whatever model number that was on the gun. He even had one Colt he got the caliber wrong. You live in that screwy state of Illinois, so it's not surprising the rules are different. The guy that told me story knew his firearms (He bought 2 of the one's that sold at the auction I was at.) I see no reason why he'd fabricate a story like that.

 

[aggiealum]

Lets address this statement first.
Let someone talk long enough and it becomes apparent when they are lying or ignorant of the facts. Either you are lying or this "guy" is lying.
Any M2 carbine would be stamped as such. It would be classified as a machine gun under atf rules. Military M2 that were made from M1 had the receivers restamped. Therefore on the receiver in plain site it would have the M2 stamp on it. The auction house would have seen this as it is hard to miss. Now if it was an M1 that had been converted by a civilian after the war for full auto it could have been kept. The receiver just needed disassembled, and the parts turned into the ATF . The M1 then could have had the original m1 parts or parts kit installed and it would be a legal M1. Why? Because thus unstamped M2 had never been registered as an m2. Thus the guy would have been able to keep it had he had a gunsmith do the conversion. How the guy missed seeing the selector switch when he preinspected the rifle before purchase is beyond me. As it is pretty obvious.
Your auction comment is also wrong and most likely a lie. Any auction house that sells firearms under consignment must transfer all firearms under an FFL. Any auction house that does so without doing this needs to be turned in and reported to the authorities. As they are in violation of the law. The only way an auction house does not need to do ffl transfers is if it is estate sale on the owners property, the auction does not do this as a consignment (they are paid a flat fee for the service of seeking a buyer) and does not take ownership of the weapons. also they only sell guns no more than two days a month. I hope you contact the proper authorities for the blatant violations of law done by the auction house. As a concerned citizen that is your duty. I shall be watching the news in your area to see if you do so.
I told you they were from an estate sale. What part. Of that don't you understand? I have no clue what:flame:
As to your craiglist link, it is a dead link. So it is clear guns are not to be sold on craigslist.
I will present my links and where my data comes just as soon as you provide the data to back up your claim, that I asked for first.
If you want to start looking though you can start with the federal data base on violent crimes.
I didn't just use chicago neither. I listed several cities. However I compared chicago to albuquerque since you claimed it was due to Chicago having a higher percentage of poor people.
The percentage of those living under the poverty level is a difference of 5%. Albuquerque is 17%, Chicago is 23%. Albuquerque per 100,000 people has a murder rate of 6.3. Chicago is 18.9. That is exactly a 300% increase with only 5% difference in the poverty rate. We open carry here, don't need to register our firearms...etc. Chicago's gun laws are significantly tougher than our own. Hell we make Texas look strict when it comes to guns. Yet our murder rate does not match....even though the poverty is very similar.....Oh, and wait, we are a border state that has to deal with cartel trafficing as well.......go figure.
I will address the rest later if the need arises.[/quote
What part of me saying it was part of an estate sale didn't you understand? I have no clue how the gun was stamped and why the guy didn't see it before he bought it at the auction. He was very knowledgable about firearms, so I see no reason why he would lie about the gun. And your little "responsible citizen should report them to the authorities" is asinine. Knowing you, you'd probably keep the gun and have a good old time with it. You're not fooling anyone.
Poverty levels? You sound like that moron Cruz and he idiotic statement associating poverty levels to Blacks. Albuquerque would be a small subdivision in The Chicago area. You can't even compare the two. Go compare Chicago's stats to LA, Houston, NYC, and other major metropolis and get back to me. I'm closer to the Mexico border than you are, and we don't deal with the "drug cartels". Crime rates in Albuquerque are lower because there's nothing there worth stealing. I had the misfortune of having to drive through that decrepit state a couple weeks ago, and why anyone would want to live there is beyond me. Looking At the run down and outdated buildings in the little towns I passed through, I'm amazed the crime rates aren't higher.

 

[darthtang aw]

What part of me saying it was part of an estate sale didn't you understand? I have no clue how the gun was stamped and why the guy didn't see it before he bought it at the auction. He was very knowledgable about firearms, so I see no reason why he would lie about the gun. And your little "responsible citizen should report them to the authorities" is asinine. Knowing you, you'd probably keep the gun and have a good old time with it. You're not fooling anyone.
You also said it was done on consignment.
1. Therefore the guy lied then. We can move on and discount anything he claimed for the rest of the discussion.
2. You are the one CONCERNED about how easy it is to get guns. Here is a perfect example of illegal action concerning guns and you do not want to turn them in. Sounds like you don't really care about the laws. So then why ask for more gun laws? You don't care about enforcing the gun laws that are in place.
3. You don't know me. You are newish to this forum, remember. All of my guns are legal and Registered. Even the ones I bought from private citizens. Owning a firearm like that is not worth the risk. All it would take is a fire in my home or an incident involving a burglar and my firearms would be investigated. 10 years in a federal penitentiary and a 250,000 dollar fine for owning a machine gun is not worth it at all.
Poverty levels? You sound like that moron Cruz and he idiotic statement associating poverty levels to Blacks. Albuquerque would be a small subdivision in The Chicago area. You can't even compare the two. Go compare Chicago's stats to LA, Houston, NYC, and other major metropolis and get back to me. I'm closer to the Mexico border than you are, and we don't deal with the "drug cartels". Crime rates in Albuquerque are lower because there's nothing there worth stealing. I had the misfortune of having to drive through that decrepit state a couple weeks ago, and why anyone would want to live there is beyond me. Looking At the run down and outdated buildings in the little towns I passed through, I'm amazed the crime rates aren't higher.

1. Where did I associate poverty with race? You sound like the moron.
2. You asked me to compare Santa fe and Albuquerque to Chicago. Claiming Chicago has more murders per capita due to poverty. I did that. Then you say it isn't a fair comparison. Make up you damn mind and figure out what stance you want to take. It is a fair comparison as I did the comparison on a per capita basis. Which gives an accurate assessment of how the cities compare in these categories. If you don't like the Chicago comparison, feel free to use Detroit then as the populations of Albuquerque and Detroit are similar.
3. Ummm...for living in Houston you sure don't know crap about the Cartel influence there. A simple google search.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cartels+in+houston&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp#channel=np&q=mexican+drug+cartels+houston&revid=1056620078&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial
4. LMAO first you say There is nothing to steal in New Mexico (even though we weren't discussing theft) then immediately say you are surprised our crime rate isn't higher. Keep punching yourself in the face there...lol. And feel free to insult the state I live in. If that makes you feel better. However it contributes nothing to the debate.

 

[2quills]

Just sayin...
http://www.drugenforcementedu.org/texas/corpus-christi/
How to Become a DEA Agent in Corpus Christi, Texas by Meeting Requirements
As the Corpus Christi is located very near the Mexico border, and has a history of gang problems, it is a destination for drug smugglers looking to travel along the coast and into the major Texan metropolitan areas of Houston and Dallas/ Forth Worth. The location of the city also is ideal for drug smugglers looking to enter the state of Louisiana and transporting drugs deeper into the Southern ******** of the United States, and eventually up the east coast to New York City and other large cities where narcotics are easy to distribute and sell.
As of 2012, local authorities have identified almost 1,000 gang members in the city, many of which are working in coordination with Mexican drug cartels across the border and assisting the cartels with drug distribution and selling. It is the responsibility of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) in Corpus Christi to assist local police and other federal agencies in curbing the selling, smuggling and distribution of drugs through the city and on the city highways that span across the state and into other states. The DEA in Corpus Christi is supervised by the division office in Houston.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541978
What part of antique auction don't you understand? The estate or owner of the gun that had the auction selling it was probably clueless. The auctioneer said she was an elderly lady that had no clue what kind of guns they were, and what they were worth. Due to the age of the gun, the auctioneer probably classified it as an "antique collectible", and probably didn't do much research on it. At the auction I was at with the 45 or so guns, he just rambled off the manufacturer and whatever model number that was on the gun. He even had one Colt he got the caliber wrong. You live in that screwy state of Illinois, so it's not surprising the rules are different. The guy that told me story knew his firearms (He bought 2 of the one's that sold at the auction I was at.) I see no reason why he'd fabricate a story like that.
It doesn't matter what the seller thought. By selling that weapon they illegally transferred a class A weapon and are responsible. You ever know someone with full autos? I have and helped him move his gun collection. We had to be careful to make sure all the auto's were in his truck because it's illegal to be in possession of the gun without your license and tax stamp. And this guy was a former employee of AFT so I'll assume he knows his stuff.

 

[aggiealum]

You also said it was done on consignment.
1. Therefore the guy lied then. We can move on and discount anything he claimed for the rest of the discussion.
2. You are the one CONCERNED about how easy it is to get guns. Here is a perfect example of illegal action concerning guns and you do not want to turn them in. Sounds like you don't really care about the laws. So then why ask for more gun laws? You don't care about enforcing the gun laws that are in place.
3. You don't know me. You are newish to this forum, remember. All of my guns are legal and Registered. Even the ones I bought from private citizens. Owning a firearm like that is not worth the risk. All it would take is a fire in my home or an incident involving a burglar and my firearms would be investigated. 10 years in a federal penitentiary and a 250,000 dollar fine for owning a machine gun is not worth it at all.
1. Where did I associate poverty with race? You sound like the moron.
2. You asked me to compare Santa fe and Albuquerque to Chicago. Claiming Chicago has more murders per capita due to poverty. I did that. Then you say it isn't a fair comparison. Make up you damn mind and figure out what stance you want to take. It is a fair comparison as I did the comparison on a per capita basis. Which gives an accurate assessment of how the cities compare in these categories. If you don't like the Chicago comparison, feel free to use Detroit then as the populations of Albuquerque and Detroit are similar.
3. Ummm...for living in Houston you sure don't know crap about the Cartel influence there. A simple google search.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cartels+in+houston&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp#channel=np&q=mexican+drug+cartels+houston&revid=1056620078&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial
4. LMAO first you say There is nothing to steal in New Mexico (even though we weren't discussing theft) then immediately say you are surprised our crime rate isn't higher. Keep punching yourself in the face there...lol. And feel free to insult the state I live in. If that makes you feel better. However it contributes nothing to the debate.
The guy had no reason to lie. He mentioned the same fines and punishments if he would've kept the gun. I believe him. You don't want to because it's simply evidence that any type of gun is easily accessible if you want it. There's no reason to turn anyone in because it was simply a mistaken identification of the gun. AGAIN, this is an antique auction, their expertise isn't with firearms. The previous owner could've sold the thing in the local classified ads and the results would've been the same.
Where did you associate poverty with race? Why reference Chicago's poverty at all in regards to gun violence? Are you saying if you're poor, you're automatically stereotyped as a felon? The majority of individuals living in Chicago are minorities, so of course they must be poor, right?
Brother. One Google search and Houston is a Mecca for drug cartels. If they're here, they must hide themselves pretty we'll from where I live, work, and play.
You miss the entire point of the comparison. The culture, lifestyles, and environments between Chicago and Albuquerque are night and day, total opposites. It's like comparing NYC to Omaha, Nebraska. You look at the statistics bases on simple numbers. You don't look at how 100,000 people in Chicago are living within a 5 mile radius of one another, when it Albuquerque, that same radius is 15 miles. Your town shuts down before midnight, and things are just picking up at that time in Chicago. Factor in culture, the type and style of living environments (how more people are concentrated in the same areas), and it's understandable why there's more violence in a major metropolis compared to some semi-rural sprawl like the towns in New Mexico

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3541986
It doesn't matter what the seller thought. By selling that weapon they illegally transferred a class A weapon and are responsible. You ever know someone with full autos? I have and helped him move his gun collection. We had to be careful to make sure all the auto's were in his truck because it's illegal to be in possession of the gun without your license and tax stamp. And this guy was a former employee of AFT so I'll assume he knows his stuff.
The person who took the guns to the auctioneer for him to sell was some old widow who was getting rid of her dead husband's firearm collection. He probably brought the thing back with him from WW2 or the Korean War, and this woman had no inkling or idea about the nature of the weapon. I guarantee you the auction house is clueless, because of their lack of knowledge of the guns they were selling when I was there last. The exteriors of an M1 and M2 are not that different.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=8134

This auction house has been selling antiques and collectibles for over 40 years. They wouldn't risk the chance of being shut down and prosecuted for selling illegal guns. The guy also said that after he talked to the owners about the issue with the gun, they told him they were in the process of getting a licensed FFL dealer to start coming to any auction where they will be selling firearms in the future. They will have him inspect all weapons prior to putting them up for auction, and purchasers will be required to fill out the proper paperwork and do a background check similar to what the do at gun shows. He laughed and said they are also going to charge any purchaser a one-time charge of $25 to perform the background service, whether you buy 1 or 10 guns.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397395/welcome-to-the-wild-wild/20#post_3542003
The person who took the guns to the auctioneer for him to sell was some old widow who was getting rid of her dead husband's firearm collection. He probably brought the thing back with him from WW2 or the Korean War, and this woman had no inkling or idea about the nature of the weapon. I guarantee you the auction house is clueless, because of their lack of knowledge of the guns they were selling when I was there last. The exteriors of an M1 and M2 are not that different.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=8134

This auction house has been selling antiques and collectibles for over 40 years. They wouldn't risk the chance of being shut down and prosecuted for selling illegal guns. The guy also said that after he talked to the owners about the issue with the gun, they told him they were in the process of getting a licensed FFL dealer to start coming to any auction where they will be selling firearms in the future. They will have him inspect all weapons prior to putting them up for auction, and purchasers will be required to fill out the proper paperwork and do a background check similar to what the do at gun shows. He laughed and said they are also going to charge any purchaser a one-time charge of $25 to perform the background service, whether you buy 1 or 10 guns.
None of that changes the fact the estate would be liable for selling the gun. It isn't like it was in the back of a storage locker. It was misrepresented whether intentional or not.