what about iodine

[majakarot]

i was readin' jcsurfin's post and didn't see anyone that tests iodine... do you use supplements? i was using a supplement until i read a post here awhile back that said iodine was usually way to high... i planned on getting a test... i already test ammonia, ph, nitrate, nitrite, calcium, phosphate and kh... should i get the iodine test? should i add the supplement? and what is the difference between iodine and iodide?
thnx

 

[bang guy]

Iodine will quickly convert to either Iodate or Iodide. the Iodide will quickly be sequestered by any algae in your tank. The Iodate will hand around longer. Your Iodine test will most likely read zero unless you actively dose Iodide on a daily basis. Iodate may or may not get a reading. It depends on the accuracy of your test kit. All of the hobbiest kits are fairly inaccurate (so far).
Just one question
Why would you dose Iodine? It may help algae, some sea squirts, but that's about it.

 

[majakarot]

i thought my crabs needed it to molt properly... and i thought my coralines needed it... if not just let me know, and no more iodine supplements for me

 

[majakarot]

WAIT! its IODIDE, not iodine that i'm adding... my bad
same question, only replace the word iodine with iodide!
sorry, i can't read

 

[reefkeypr]

Iodine is a mineral found in natural seawater. I use Lougals Solution once in a while. It is VERY strong so I use it maybe once a week. As mentioned most test kits are inaccurate. I notice my fire shrimp and crabs will molt shortly after adding it sometimes. It is also recommended if you have xenia in your tank. Just be careful about dosing.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by majakarot
i thought my crabs needed it to molt properly...
No! This myth probably came about because it forces Shrimp & Crabs to molt. Iodine is toxic to them even at NSW levels. Fortunately they have a way of getting rid of it. They can store it in their exoskeleton and then periodically molt to get rid of it.
If you add Iodine above NSW levels they may not be able to keep up with the molts and it could kill them. They will molt after you add Iodine because it's a poison that they need to get rid of, not because it "helps" them molt.
Kinda like burning your finger "helps" you remove it from the stove.
and i thought my coralines needed it...
Nope. Coralline, leathers , hard corals all have absolutely no known use for Iodine, including Xenia.

 

[oceanjumper]

Interesting.... just this weekend I asked my LFS guy why my Xenia was not pulsing...
"not enough iodine" was his reply.....

 

[richard rendos]

The Reef Aquarium Vol I page 251/252 states the following:
"Lugol's solution, also known as "strong iodine" solution, was brought to our attention by John Burleson and Merrill Cohen. They both found that is stimualted growth in Xenia species, and helped prevent common "crashes" of this soft coral."
"Iodine (as iodide) appears to be essential for the long term maintenance of Xenia and certain algae. It is beneficial to other soft corals, especially Anthelia spp. and Clove polyp (Clavularia sp.). Iodine additions are also absolutely critical for long-term success with stony corals."
"Based on observations in our own aquaria, confirmed by our communications with A. Nilsen and D. Stuber, and prior work by Peter Wilkens, it appears that iodide is critical for the development of pigments in corals, corallimorpharia, and anemones, both the golden brown of the zooanthellae and the green and red colours of accessory pigments."
This section of the book goes into more detail about iodide/iodine in reef aquaria. I have also read in the Modern Reef Aquarium Books about the benefits of adding iodine/iodide to the reef aquaria. I hate to sound like I am arguing with Bang Guy, but I tend to agree with Sprung, Delbeek, Nilsen, and Fossa. I believe that Borneman also points out the importance of iodide/iodine for coral health. I have personally noticed a dramatic difference in color and health in my corals after regular dosing of Lugol's solution.
P.S. It can be easily overdosed which can be detrimental to aquaria inhabitants. Use caution not to overdose.

 

[bang guy]

No arguement here. What I am saying is that there is no published works showing that corals use Iodine in any way other than sequestering it to avoid its toxic effects.
Anecdotal evidence is often accepted in this hobby as truth. This is probably because so little hard research is done due to the high costs.
If you're more inclined to go with the anecdotal evidence that's fine. But my anecdotal evidence over the years show that reef tanks remain healthy longer when Iodine is not dosed.
I will disagree with Sprung, Delbeek, Nilsen, and Fossa until scientific research shows me I'm wrong.
I have a much more difficult time disagreeing with Borneman... I need to see what he wrote on the subject.... He's one that could probably change my mind depending on what his statement is.
Regardless, osing more than NSW levels is a really bad idea IMO. If you feel like going to the trouble of maintaining NSW levels I don't see how that could hurt. Just seems an occational water change would be a whole lot more beneficial and definately much safer.
Guy

 

[richard rendos]

Aquarium Corals by Eric H. Borneman says on page 357...
"Iodine is commonly added as potassium iodide in any of a number of commercial preparations. It is also available as a combination of iodine and potassium iodide in a stronger product called Lugol's solution.(The potential uses of Lugol's solution for coral disease treament are covered in Chapter 11, page 389.) Despite early rave reviews about the beneficial effects of Lugol's on the growth and coloration of certain coral and invertebrate species with regular use, many aquarists (including myself) have noted it to be quite deleterious to some coral species. Most notably, some Xenia species react favorably to Lugol's, while other Xenia species react as if it were a poison. Pachyclavularia and Clavularia species also frequently have a negative reaction to Lugol's. Potassium iodide, therefore, is recommended as an effective way to supplement iodine levels because it poses much less risk than Lugol's solution. Caution is in order, though: iodine is a powerful oxidant and cytotoxic. Moderate and careful use is critical to prevent overdosing, and the use of a commercically available iodide/iodine test kits may be warranted in some cases."
This also could be considered anecdotal evidence. There is no scientific evidence here either. Just differing opinions. I will continue to use Lugol's because of my personal experince with it. I have had no unfavorable reactions by any of my corals.
Sounds like two different schools of thought...neither with any HARD evidence to support them. Kind of nice to do a little research once in a while, though.

 

[reefkeypr]

Taken from robert Fenner's The Conscientious Marine Aquarium:
Some of the elements in ocean water have been found to be superfluous to successful marine aquarium keeping, while othersare very important. A good example is the relative difference between the major element bromine and the minor element iodine. Bromine is present in the oceans at several thousand times the concentration of iodine, yet iodine is far more important biologically. If it becomes limited or absent, fishes exhibit goiterlike growths, soft corals can " melt down " and SPS corals can fade and die. Lack of iodine is also a common problem in keeping captive large sharks.Toxic at NSW levels? come on bang guy. That is just silly. Dose your tank with iodine just do not over do it.And do not put your hand on a burner

 

[reefkeypr]

Bang Guy
When your thesis is published.. I will pay more attention

 

[bang guy]

Richard,
We're definately in agreement about the lack of research. It's very costly with pretty much no return on investment.
I certainly respect your desire to maintain NSW levels of Iodine. Sounds perfectly natural IMO.
The statement you quoted from Borneman is really far from convincing me though... but then, I assume you already knew that.
If a hobbiest priced test kit is developed that will accurately measure down to 0.01ppm I myself would consider maintaining NSW levels. I'm just REALLY uncomfortable dosing a known poison without a reliable way of knowing what level is already in the water.
Thank you for the discussion... this is how progress is made.
On the other hand if you're looking to make your macro algae distasteful to your Tang, I fully believe that Iodine will accomplish your desires.
On the subject of anecdotal evidence... try this in a test reef sometime...
Add sucrose to a tank with SPS coral. You'll get unbelieveable polyp extension. They will look incredible for a few days right up to the time they totally bleach out and croak. I'm not 100% sure, but I would guess in small doses the sugar would make SPS look really good. I doubt it's healthy though.
It's long term results that count IMO.
Guy

 

[reefkeypr]

Sucrose is found in NSW ...Bang stick to breeding fish

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by ReefKeypr
Sucrose is found in NSW ...Bang stick to breeding fish
My point is quantities. More of a good thing isn't better.
I guess a good debate isn't appreciated by all. Sorry.
So, please tell us your experiences ReefKeypr.

 

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I'm just REALLY uncomfortable dosing a known poison without a reliable way of knowing what level is already in the water.

I am very new to this hobby so I am learning from all of you. I don't really know what's iodine but is it really poison? I know that most of the commerical salt contains iodine. I also heard (mostly from magazines, books and discussion groups) that iodine along with calcium are essential for most hard coral, shrimp and carb. If iodine is really poison then why the commerical salt add it? Is there a salt that do not contain iodine?
thanks!
david

 

[bang guy]

Hi David,
Maybe poison was too strong a word. Many of the trace elements are toxic in higher concentrations, this includes Iodine.
Iodine is included in salt mixes because Iodine occurs naturally in seawater.
Dosing Iodine or not is simply a choice. I'm only making the point that dosing Iodine "just because" doesn't make sense to me. If there is a goal in mind such as maintaining NSW (Natural Sea Water) levels of Iodine then that makes sense. If your corals seem to do better when you dose Iodine, then that's cool too. But to dose Iodine without regard to current levels just because the advertizing says it's needed is a bad idea IMO.
There may be undiscovered biological uses for Iodine, there probably are. The danger of overdosing is real, very real if you're dosing and not testing.

 

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
Iodine is included in salt mixes because Iodine occurs naturally in seawater.

Got it! You are saying a regular water change should (most of the time) give you enough iodine and that a dosing is not strictly neccessary. Plus, over dosing is really dangeous.
thanks!
david

 

[simm]

Originally posted by dzhuo
Plus, over dosing is really dangeous.
thanks!
david
I second that. You dont want to over dose Iodine at all. As a matter of fact I know people who do under what the directions recommend. As suggested just do regular water changes. If your not familiar with the additive and what it does Id stay away!

 

[reefkeypr]

Bang
Sorry if you thought I was hostile. Not my intention. It seems like the last few posts are right on now. I agree about water changes, but at the same time aggresive protein skimming will remove iodine. It just seemed like some of the posts were comparing apples to oranges. This is not a problem to you and I but new reefers may not understand. I like a good debate and this is one that could go on forever. I will make sure not to offend.
I have also read posts by you on other subjects and have found them right on or informative.
See you around!!!