What can we do to up the numbers?

[beth]

I think the impact is more on the side that people want to buy cheaper (previously owned) items, and they want frags, frags, frags at a cut rate, and to add to the overall diversity of their coral collection. Fragging and propagation is an integral part of this hobby, and since it is not offered at SWF, then reefers, who yes have side businesses, will go elsewhere, and with them will go those who want to buy a $20 frag.
Yes, we got businesses here, and toward the end, we even got retailers incognito, which was pretty unprofessional. I'm not talking about your average hobbyist who is selling a few frags on the side, but actual well-known retailers coming here.
I don't think many basement hobby fraggers make any real killing by selling online. Yes, some of their activities turn a small profit, but mostly they are interested in breaking even, in propagation because that is a vital part of the reefing end of the hobby, and in getting diversity in their tanks via swaps and trades, etc.
Unlike the other major hobby forums, SWF is a store. So, unlike the other forums, people coming here to sell can be a big problem for the store. So, yes, SWF does have a right to say enough is enough with the abuse of the forum for free advertising and free selling. The downside is, that many reefer hobbyists will go elsewhere to appease their need for access to public trading and selling areas.
The truth is, that those forums required heavy duty moderating, and none of the mods wanted to spend all our time doing that. Can you blame us? But that is what it would take to keep some control over such a forum, that is located at a store site, such as SWF.

 

[salt210]

I for one liked having the sell/trade sections on here but can understand the owners choice to remove them. I do remember some people just using those sections and that was all, but it was nice to have that here for when I needed something and didnt/ couldnt pay full price for it.
some of the people that have left this site and went to another I dont remember them selling a lot, but I dont know why they actually left.

 

[teresaq]

I agree, I used the equipment forum to sell unused equipment and to buy used things I needed. It was nice having it here. I dont frequent other forums much though, this is my main site. I do understand swf's side of it, but wish there was a way to bring it back, but limit the amount of selling or trading people can do, but if it cant be then so be it, I will be here no matter what.
I did enjoy the first contest they had, the second was kinda confusing.
T

 

[pezenfuego]

I was hoping that this would not turn into another live/sell/trade discussion.
I was thinking more along the lines of incentives such as contests and such.

 

[cranberry]

All the forums are slow right now. It's not just this one. I think it's probably a little more noticeable this year because a nice few people have gotten out of the hobby. It'll pick up again. You're always going to have your transients that come and go with a core base of people that stick around.

 

[beth]

Contests are fun, but cater more to existing members, I think. I don't see too many people joining the site to participate in a contest. However, SWF is thinking in terms of motivating people to join the site, so I think anything that works may be up for consideration.

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3049274
Contests are fun, but cater more to existing members, I think. I don't see too many people joining the site to participate in a contest. However, SWF is thinking in terms of motivating people to join the site, so I think anything that works may be up for consideration.
Yes, I realize that...
Still brainstorming. We need something that other forums don't have...something that makes ours special.

 

[ophiura]

I understand the allure of used equipment and such, as well as the low cost frags. However, I can't understand that removing such a forum would be such an upset to that type of user that they would abandon the rest of it, and in many cases in a huge uproar.

 

[beth]

I think there was a crowd of those who were probably here mostly for the selling forum, but, in the meantime, while they were here, they would contribute to the forum, though maybe very limited. Obviously, these people, fraggers, had a degree of experience to offer otherwise they wouldn't be at the point that they could propagate. Once there "main reason" for being here is gone, then they will find another outlet--another forum.
Also, you will have regular members who start looking around for what they can't get here--frags, used equipment, swaps, etc., and they will start visiting places that do provide that--thus taking traffic from here.
If you go to a particular grocery store and have a couple of items that you really want, in addition to everything else that store offers, then you continue to go to that store because it meets all your needs. However, if that store no longer carries those couple of items that you really want...then what happens? You go to anther store to get it, and then you might find that that other store can meet your needs exclusively.
That's my theory anyway.
I think we all knew that we would be loosing some members. The question is does the benefits of not having those forums outweigh the traffic that they may have brought to SWF?

 

[cranberry]

Forums with a very active selling/fragging forum sometimes lacks in conversation. I'm a "New Posts" button kind of girl.... it's irritating when every other new thread is just a selling thread. When others visit those forums to buy something and then look around and make a few posts, they could possible bring back some new topics for discussion here.
I haven't noticed this place getting slower other than the norm for the season (and possibly for the economy).

 

[lion_crazz]

I am the same way. Towards the end, I was starting to notice an over-abundance of selling threads when I hit the "new posts" button. That is not something that I want to see either.

 

[beth]

I'm not sure if there is a decrease in traffic. I guess only the admin of the site would know that. Its pretty normal for people to come and go from forums.
The question is, what can we offer to attract new people, to get those who are viewing to actually "join".

 

[spanko]

The "Today's Posts" and "New Posts" buttons are what I use mostly. Of course unless I am searching for a particular item.
IMO those selling trading threads could be blocked from appearing when using those buttons, the same as the Aquarium threads. That would require people wanting to see what is going on there to go to that particular area. This would in turn leave the today's and new posts buttons to show only those things that are related to the hobbyist looking for answers or contributing the experiences they have had or are having.
To tell you the truth the only reason I come on reef sites is to learn from others or to help others if I can. I really don't need to see those other things, and if for some reason I want to visit them I can choose to go there.

 

[mantisman51]

I believe it was Teresa who mentioned it, but some folks get really, really testy with noobs who ask a question, then when they don't understand the responses, they get the "If you don't want to do it right, find another hobby" line. I have learned most of what I know from SWF. I screwed up badly, making all the "do it cheaper" mistakes. I had been a member back in early 07, puffermantis or some other name I couldn't remember-that's why I rejoined with a new name. I got so ripped up by so many people when I asked "Why?" to some responses that I left for a long time. If we really care about the hobby, shouldn't we want to make it better for the noobs and the livestock? Why let some people drive out people who are confused? I'm not saying we should let a fight take place. Just let noobs be noobs. There is so much misinformation out there, of course some people aren't going to "get it" the first time they're told something.

 

[lion_crazz]

Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3049322
I believe it was Teresa who mentioned it, but some folks get really, really testy with noobs who ask a question, then when they don't understand the responses, they get the "If you don't want to do it right, find another hobby" line. I have learned most of what I know from SWF. I screwed up badly, making all the "do it cheaper" mistakes. I had been a member back in early 07, puffermantis or some other name I couldn't remember-that's why I rejoined with a new name. I got so ripped up by so many people when I asked "Why?" to some responses that I left for a long time. If we really care about the hobby, shouldn't we want to make it better for the noobs and the livestock? Why let some people drive out people who are confused? I'm not saying we should let a fight take place. Just let noobs be noobs. There is so much misinformation out there, of course some people aren't going to "get it" the first time they're told something.
I totally agree with you. It is unbelievable how hostile some people get with newer aquarists who don't know what they are doing and who get a little defensive about their aquariums. I am not so sure that there is a clear cut way to prevent that though.

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3049322
I believe it was Teresa who mentioned it, but some folks get really, really testy with noobs who ask a question, then when they don't understand the responses, they get the "If you don't want to do it right, find another hobby" line. I have learned most of what I know from SWF. I screwed up badly, making all the "do it cheaper" mistakes. I had been a member back in early 07, puffermantis or some other name I couldn't remember-that's why I rejoined with a new name. I got so ripped up by so many people when I asked "Why?" to some responses that I left for a long time. If we really care about the hobby, shouldn't we want to make it better for the noobs and the livestock? Why let some people drive out people who are confused? I'm not saying we should let a fight take place. Just let noobs be noobs. There is so much misinformation out there, of course some people aren't going to "get it" the first time they're told something.
It's funny you say that...because that's the reason I joined SWF.com.
Back when I was a brand spankin' new to the hobby I decided to do internet research instead of just going off of books and the lfs. The first site I joined (can't remember what it was...but that doesn't matter) I explained my situation and got a ton of bias opinions from people saying that a 13 year old kid can't keep saltwater aquariums. It's too difficult, stick to freshwater was what I got from it. I was about to quit saltwater because people didn't have any faith in my abilities based solely on my age. When I came to saltwaterfish.com someone (maybe Sep

) invited me and tried to help me along. Granted, in the back of my mind I hate that person because they are the indirect reason why my wallet is empty right now

But nontheless, that is the reason I stuck with this site. Respect, it is lacking now...

 

[yearofthenick]

WELL I'd like to give MY two cents.
1. Jerks
I'm a member of multiple forums (even my local reefers club). I need to say that swf.com has the most jerks. However, this isn't really my opinion (I like a lot of people on here!)... swf.com is sometimes discussed on other forums and the general understanding I've seen from others is that swf.com has the most pedantic, high-standard, rude people. "You don't use RO??? That's your problem." "You can't afford a 250w MH for a 35g??? Well you shouldn't have gotten into this hobby."
However, I can't say that this is entirely true as it stands now. In the past, unknowing newbies would be shunned and ostracized because they cycled with damsels. They'd get totally reamed by people on here! Now, I'm a little surprised to see "well the damage is done, nothing we can do"... which is much more of an adult-like response.
I still see a lot of newbies (NOT all of them) get either beaten up by older members or completely ignored. That's where a lot of our recruiting comes from, and if we have members belittling our newbies, our numbers will decrease and eventually die off. We need to love the newbie! A newbie is a new friend! And a new partner in the hobby! Newbies are excited about the wonders of fishkeeping! Don't snuff it out.
These "jerks" don't only exist in just the advice half of the forum, but in the Aquarium. There are people on here who just want to start fights with others... not sure why, maybe to relieve some frustrations caused by stress at work, maybe because they're cynical. I almost left twice because I felt like I was being singled out and whipped by others in a thread, and that feeling really sucks. I will also admit that I have done my fair share of returning the whipping to those who try to whip me. I just need to turn the other cheek I guess. As CFR puts it... WW1JD (What Would 1Journeyman Do).
2. saltwaterauctions.com
C'mon... everyone has to admit, swauctions.com was, is, and will continue to be a total failure. In concept, it's a good idea, but should not be attempted by a site who has already agreed to have a free classifieds section in the past. I know many share the opinion that perhaps the owners of swf got greedy and wanted to control/get a piece of the trading that was going on. I understand you don't want any side-selling here, but it's better than nothing, right? You need to consider that! For example: "Bill" comes on here to check out the classifieds.... Bill is looking for a used skimmer. He finds "Joe" who's selling his skimmer and they have a good, safe transaction between the two of them. Bill is now a member of the forum, knows about the site, and will likely purchase through swf for fish since swf has been so accomodating to his needs.
Let's look at craigslist. If the creator of craigslist wanted to, he could charge a fee for every post that was made, but it would eliminate the beauty and essence behind all that craigslist is. In the same way, there was a free classifieds section on here that was utilized pretty regularly, by members of the forum who are scattered all over the U.S., and swf wanted a cut of the money that was being passed. Not only did it put a bad taste in everyone's mouth, in the end, everyone lost. Swauctions is empty, there's no classifieds section, and a lot of people have left. Lose, lose, lose. All because of greed and hunger for complete control.
Tell me why in the world I would want to sell anything on swauctions.com when I have thE bay. People sell frags/fish/anemones there! It is nationally known! Hundreds of millions of people use it.
In my opinion, the ONLY WAY that swauctions has a glint of hope in succeeding is if swf starts selling their own stuff on there for people to bid on. I think that's probably the only way you'd get the ball rolling. If swf doesn't even put their own stuff on there, who's to say anyone else will?
The beauty of the classifieds section is that you can keep the equipment posted on there for extended periods of time. There's no 7-day maximum like on auctions. With specialty equipment and a specailty hobby like this, sometimes stuff will sit on the shelf for months before it's purchased... it's not a high-throughput like other industries. Having said that, a saltwater auction site sounds a bit like an oxymoron.

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3049345
WELL I'd like to give MY two cents.
1. Jerks
I'm a member of multiple forums (even my local reefers club). I need to say that swf.com has the most jerks. However, this isn't really my opinion (I like a lot of people on here!)... swf.com is sometimes discussed on other forums and the general understanding I've seen from others is that swf.com has the most pedantic, high-standard, rude people. "You don't use RO??? That's your problem." "You can't afford a 250w MH for a 35g??? Well you shouldn't have gotten into this hobby."
However, I can't say that this is entirely true as it stands now. In the past, unknowing newbies would be shunned and ostracized because they cycled with damsels. They'd get totally reamed by people on here! Now, I'm a little surprised to see "well the damage is done, nothing we can do"... which is much more of an adult-like response.
I still see a lot of newbies (NOT all of them) get either beaten up by older members or completely ignored. That's where a lot of our recruiting comes from, and if we have members belittling our newbies, our numbers will decrease and eventually die off. We need to love the newbie! A newbie is a new friend! And a new partner in the hobby! Newbies are excited about the wonders of fishkeeping! Don't snuff it out.
These "jerks" don't only exist in just the advice half of the forum, but in the Aquarium. There are people on here who just want to start fights with others... not sure why, maybe to relieve some frustrations caused by stress at work, maybe because they're cynical. I almost left twice because I felt like I was being singled out and whipped by others in a thread, and that feeling really sucks. I will also admit that I have done my fair share of returning the whipping to those who try to whip me. I just need to turn the other cheek I guess. As CFR puts it... WW1JD (What Would 1Journeyman Do).
Yes, SWF does have quite the jerk factor. Several times I've felt singled out and victimized and like a parasite, I found myself doing it to others on here. Sometimes you need to grind your teeth and be nice. If you can't, then it is like drinking and driving in that you are not going to get from point A to point B and someone will get hurt. There is a difference between joking around and just being a jerk. Some think that being a jerk and "joking" around with people through personal victimization is perfectly acceptable as long as it is done in the aquarium and not elsewhere...but it is not. Some say that saltwaterfish.com has too many rules. Maybe it does

but making a point to break them just makes it worse. I wish mods could hand out jerk infractions, but then that would just be another thing for people to complain about...

 

[ophiura]

These are all good points and a good discussion. Keep it coming

 

[reefraff]

I think the economy is part of it. Between people getting out and fewer people getting in explains some of it. You have others who will just get bored with a particular site and move on.
I am a member of a couple other boards, one of which is about as close to anything goes as you are going to see. That board has really died off too so I don't think the rules here are driving people off.
I started out here and at the time it just seemed a little too monolithic in thought and started visiting other sites. Got hooked in at another site where I have about 18,000 posts mostly answering questions on lighting. I drifted back over here and stumbled across the aquarium. I really like the political debates. I drift into the equipment forum here and try to add to the discussion when I feel I have something to add but I mainly come here to get away from answering the same questions constantly.
I can see not allowing links to competitors but lighten up a little on the mere mention of them. I would also allow the mention of other boards. I can kinda see not allowing the linking to another board but if there is a helpful thread why not allow people to know about it so they can go look for it?
Eliminating the selling and trading area was probably a mistake but the motive for doing so was completely understandable. You really need a lot of moderators to prevent people from taking advantage of those.