What's wrong with the church today?

rotarymagic

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2773677
I was joking dude. But in response to your statement, the bible tells us that God cares about everything. There's even a verse that talks about God caring for the birds of the air and lillies of the field, and how much more does he care about us? - something along those lines.
Asop's Fables and the Bible have three things in common: They're geared to teach morals for those that can't think for themselves, written by people, and completely fictional.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rotarymagic
http:///forum/post/2774046
I know of one man that Dr. Michael Behe and every other ID creationist fears. Dr. Sahotra Sarkar, he makes IDs crawl back into their little holes to rot.
First, i fear no man...
Second, I haven't crawled for the past 34 years
Third, I don't live in a hole.

Seriously, its this type of post and the following one that was deleted that get threads locked.
Play nice or don't play in the aquarium. Plenty of other websites that allow it.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
C'mon guys, please keep it cordial. Journeyman, I want to keep this thread open as long as possible. If one person gets out of line, is that grounds for lock? or does it require a number or people?
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rotarymagic
http:///forum/post/2774046
I know of one man that Dr. Michael Behe and every other ID creationist fears. Dr. Sahotra Sarkar, he makes IDs crawl back into their little holes to rot.
I've been following Sarkar's work in dis-proving ID. It stops very abruptly in September of 2007. I wonder what happened.
 
R

regina13

Guest
I was born and raised Catholic until a few years ago when my Dad switched churchs. I was a little scared at first to try a new church and diffferent denomination. I finally decided to try it, and found that I like the way they taught the bible. Then the time came when I had to be confirmed in the Catholic church. I was told that if I didn't make it I would no longer be part of their church and could not participate in the sacraments! Having to make that decision in 7th grade was hard. I did end up getting confirmed.
I still go to the church with my Dad,and the Catholic church once and awhile. To this day they(the Catholic church) still get on my case about not attending their church every week.
At this point I am ready to stop going to church. I believe in God, but why does it matter where I learn about him? I think it is sad....
 

jeanheckle

Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2774348
C'mon guys, please keep it cordial. Journeyman, I want to keep this thread open as long as possible. If one person gets out of line, is that grounds for lock? or does it require a number or people?
I agree. Difference does not need to lead to nastiness. I work with Catholics, atheists., agnostics, jews, christians and one of Jehovah's witnesses. Everyone discusses, disagress yet never insults. Only good can come from honest open discussion and understanding others, insulting them or even religiously shaming someone accomplishes nothing. I am enjoying this thread and for the most part the tolerance of everyone even though many different views.
 

rotarymagic

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2774355
I've been following Sarkar's work in dis-proving ID. It stops very abruptly in September of 2007. I wonder what happened.
maybe because he was teaching two of my classes in spring 08... ever thought of that? He did have ALOT of sections.
 

rotarymagic

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2774113
First, i fear no man(but you fear an as of current nonexistent entity which is even worse thats like fearing a boogeyman under the bed...)
Second, I haven't crawled for the past 34 years (probably should with those backward, oppressive, trendy views)
Third, I don't live in a hole.
(see above)
Seriously, its this type of post and the following one that was deleted that get threads locked.
Don't you mean BE A SHEEP OR DON'T POST in the aquarium. Plenty of other websites that allow it.
...
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rotarymagic
http:///forum/post/2774573
maybe because he was teaching two of my classes in spring 08... ever thought of that? He did have ALOT of sections.
Well he's been a prof. at the same school for a while now, right? His class schedule hasn't ever kept him from continuing research...
 

1journeyman

Active Member
To answer the question; No. One person's behavior will not get a thread locked. We delete their posts. It's when we see the thread spiraling downward that we lock or delete.
 

maxalmon

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2769678
There are a lot of very interesting facts about "intelligent design" ... the flagellar motor, for example. It's a "tail" that some single-celled organisms have, with 40 individual parts that make up this "motor." Evolutionary theory states that organisms make minor modifications or additions over thousands of years, but the flagellar motor, with it's 40 parts, would not work without all 40 parts... meaning if there were 39 parts, it would be totally useless.
The flagellar motor was designed. there's no way that all 40 parts just happened to come together by accident. it's like saying the engine in your car just kind of threw itself together and voila!
Dr. Michael Behe said it the best: "Let's say you went out and bought a single lottery ticket. As you watch the television program that evening, the host announces all six of your wining lottery numbers. You've won millions of dollars. Let's say the following day you do exactly the same thing, purchasing a single ticket and winning the lottery. Now, let's say this happens for 6 years, and every day you've purchased a single ticket, and won the lottery. That is the likelihood of the universe being created by 'random circumstance'."
So there is no evolution on this planet according to this statement, meaning that nothing is capable of adapting to new circumstances and creating a new way to exist or increase/improve it's mobility based on physical surroundings?
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by maxalmon
http:///forum/post/2775213
So there is no evolution on this planet according to this statement, meaning that nothing is capable of adapting to new circumstances and creating a new way to exist or increase/improve it's mobility based on physical surroundings?
Not at all, the statement questions the logic of an animal (for the millions of years it takes to develop a new organ) carrying around a useless organ. Until finally one day it starts to work. in one organism, then survival of the fittest takes over and this new organ gives it an advantage somehow. And then this strain of species now all of a sudden becomes dominent.
 

maxalmon

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2775229
Not at all, the statement questions the logic of an animal (for the millions of years it takes to develop a new organ) carrying around a useless organ. Until finally one day it starts to work. in one organism, then survival of the fittest takes over and this new organ gives it an advantage somehow. And then this strain of species now all of a sudden becomes dominent.
You've just described evolution.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by maxalmon
http:///forum/post/2775250
You've just described evolution.

Here is where it doesn't make sense. These useless organs or appendages, somehow survive from generation to generation, without being phased out because they are useless. yet one day they start working due to a mutation. Then suddenly they proliferate?
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2775287
Here is where it doesn't make sense. These useless organs or appendages, somehow survive from generation to generation, without being phased out because they are useless. yet one day they start working due to a mutation. Then suddenly they proliferate?
Why doesn't it make sense? I don't see any reason why that couldn't happen and I do believe it does. I believe in evolution and the miracle of creation. I don't find anything wrong with believing that there were humanoid types of people on the earth millions of years ago that don't look exactly like us. That would make sense. The climate is much different now. If global warming is completely accurate and the climate becomes much hotter then I am sure we will see more changes in the way humans look in another 2000 years.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2775298
Why doesn't it make sense? I don't see any reason why that couldn't happen and I do believe it does. I believe in evolution and the miracle of creation. I don't find anything wrong with believing that there were humanoid types of people on the earth millions of years ago that don't look exactly like us. That would make sense. The climate is much different now. If global warming is completely accurate and the climate becomes much hotter then I am sure we will see more changes in the way humans look in another 2000 years.
The argument isn't if there was a lucy. There is no reason to not believe there weren't other organism that are now extinct. The real question is the likelyhood (assuming no ID) that a creature can survive while developing into a new organism. Which has to happen to explain the varieties of organisms.
Say a bird develops wings, but not feathers and has bird legs, that organism isn't going to survive for the generations that it is going to need to develop feathers. Hypothetically speaking of course.
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2775339
The argument isn't if there was a lucy. There is no reason to not believe there weren't other organism that are now extinct. The real question is the likelyhood (assuming no ID) that a creature can survive while developing into a new organism. Which has to happen to explain the varieties of organisms.
Say a bird develops wings, but not feathers and has bird legs, that organism isn't going to survive for the generations that it is going to need to develop feathers. Hypothetically speaking of course.
For that I would imagine it would just depend on what the outside influences were at the time it was developing. Look at the Dodo bird for example. It went extinct simply because where it developed they were no natural predators. As soon as there were it had no chance to develp any defenses. Perhaps if there had been predators from the beginning of it's development it would have learned defenses such as hiding or aggressiveness that would have allowed it to survive to present day. Look at an ostrich. It can't fly but they can be mean and nasty and kick hard enough to kill a person. I am sure they developed that during their development as a species.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2775372
For that I would imagine it would just depend on what the outside influences were at the time it was developing. Look at the Dodo bird for example. It went extinct simply because where it developed they were no natural predators. As soon as there were it had no chance to develp any defenses. Perhaps if there had been predators from the beginning of it's development it would have learned defenses such as hiding or aggressiveness that would have allowed it to survive to present day. Look at an ostrich. It can't fly but they can be mean and nasty and kick hard enough to kill a person. I am sure they developed that during their development as a species.
That is the argument. but then that comes down to probability. Sure it is possible, but not even close to likely.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Let me take it to a different level. If evolution were true, then we would see a "tree of life" which darwin originally put together and we've since dapated over and over. The theory is that at the very top of this tree is a single-celled organism, and as the tree flows down, more complex organisms are devloped... frogs, then birds, then mammals, then humans, so forth - you get the idea.
BUT the ACTUAL "tree of life" is more like grass than a tree... meaning there was almost nothing for a long time (millions of years), then all of a sudden, there was an explosion of all kinds of organisms, animals, mammals, etc. We know this because of fossils we've carbon-dated. We call this the "Cambrian Explosion." You should google it because it's very interesting.
Again, the best way to describe it is like calling it the "grass of life" instead of the "tree of life" because all of a sudden there were many genus's, species, all kinds of plants and animals, which historically came from almost nothing. Seemingly no evolutionary involvement in this situation.
As you read about it, it says that entire species have evolved completely in as little as 30 million years, some in 5-10 million years, which even still seems like a lot, but in a 4 billion year old earth, 5-10m years is like the snap of a finger in comparison. When I say "evolved completely" i mean that it went from literally nothing, to a fully-functioning bird with feathers and wings, and frogs with all of it's growth stages perfected. For so many species to come from nothing and be fully developed, fully done evolving, in 5-30m years... seems like something ELSE had to be there to help it along, you know?
Here's more info on the Cambrian Explosion:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/li.../l_034_02.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
Evolution's Natural Selection states that single traits are added and subtracted over many millions of years. The flagellar motor needed 40 traits to be added simultaneously in order for it to work. The motor simply cannot be "evolved" and yet it exists today. The Cambrian Explosion is also something we can prove happened which also blows natural selection out of the water.
Do I think our theory of evolution is flawed? It must be! Do I think evolution is wrong? Well, I'm sure it had a role in the process of forming these species, but clearly there had to be something else to help things along, you know?
Another thing that really doesn't help my un-belief in evolution are all of the fossils and such found to support the theory of evolution which are later found to be false - fabricated - FAKE. Why would some scientists try to lie to support their theory? In my opinion, it goes against everything that they work for. They seek out the truth... they start with theories and hypotheses with the goal of proving them or dis-proving them... not to fudge the answers to prove what they want people to believe. If you want a list of fossils that scientists have tried to get past people which have later turned out to be fake, I'd be glad to give you a list.
 
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