Where can I put my Mandarin?

yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry http:///forum/post/3050216
That's what I was thinking/wondering.
Let me set the scene first here... were old friends sitting around the table with our favorite drinks and snacks having a fun debate about our hobby. Tone can be misunderstood....
Because someone put their opinions in a pretty referenced article doesn't make it a fact. He didn't study anything in the write up... it's all his opinion. The same as any other post. The references look impressive but really go through them. What does any of them have to do with ich and garlic? Now, if those references he cited had studies that directly related to the topic, that would validate his opinion... but they don't. You have to be careful of "Forum Facts". When forums came into play about what? 10 years ago? they were the most thrilling advancement in this hobby.... but as time goes on it has also become a breeding ground for many fallacies. When I really want to research something I read the forums to see what others have to say... I want their experiences. Then I go searching through the scientific journals to make a factual link. When giving out advice I think we need to be careful in saying things like "Studies show" when that's not supported... it gives the receiver a false sense that there actually was a study done.
Saying "Studies show" was not an error on my part. I chose to say that. Just because Mr. Cortes doesn't have a doctorate in science or work at NASA doesn't mean he's unqualified to do a study... and you must admit this was a pretty involved study. I'm glad you looked at the reference list. The guy did his homework. I bet if you purchased all the books he referenced, you'd come to very similar conclusions.
Aqua Knight asked me to give him the sources I was referencing and I gave it. Can you say it's invalid? Sure. That's your right, and I'm not going to cram the opposite down your throat. I just ask that you show the same courtesy... don't try to win me over to submission on this garlic thing. I've used garlic and I honestly consider it to be an effective treatment against ich... although I would agree that it does not CURE ich from the tank... there have been no studies/tests/analyses/etc etc etc done on how well garlic completely eradicates ich from the tank so I can't stand by that.
All I know is the first time my hippo tang got ich, I gave him garlic and the GVH soak, and he got better. I hadn't seen a single spot of ich on any of my fishes since. That's my experience.
I don't know why this is such a sore subject for everyone. I don't know why everyone fights so ruthlessly about this. Just try it. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. If it does, it does. Everyone knows that there have been mixed results.
Aqua Knight, I could have done without your antagonistic sarcasm directed at me. I'd hate to begin labeling you as one of the people I posted about in this thread, post #36...
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/358785/what-can-we-do-to-up-the-numbers
If you disagree with me, that's fine. I'm not asking you to agree with me. But if you expect me to listen to you and respect your responses, you should consider the manner of your responses... I think everyone would take you more seriously if you took the topics more seriously.
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Back to the thread topic....
keeshcarm : The one time I did hypo, my mandarin lived through it. My clown goby died, both my percula's died, but the hippo tang and mandarin lived.
 
cranberry

cranberry

Active Member
I'm not saying he's right or wrong, Nick. I'm certainly not saying he's stupid. He's presenting his hypothesis, but that's all it is at that stage. And at that stage it's not proven... there needs to be a study set up to find correlation.
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3050229
I'm not saying he's right or wrong, Nick. I'm certainly not saying he's stupid. He's presenting his hypothesis, but that's all it is at that stage. And at that stage it's not proven... there needs to be a study set up to find correlation.
All I'm saying is that this study (or whatever you want to call it - hypothesis/book report/place description here) is the product of his findings. He did research and this is what he came up with. It would be the same if any of us wanted to do research... we'd put together our findings, reference the sources, and post it somewhere. That's what he did.
Yet for some reason it doesn't have any standing in anyone's minds on this forum until someone with years of schooling in science gives an A+ at the top of his page. That's essentially what you're saying, right? You need someone with a career in science to do the testing and prove/disprove it.
What about his references? Many of them have a science background, and provide proven statements about the properties of garlic and it's effect. He puts two and two together. Nothing more.
Here's a link I found to an actual site where the study is posted.
http://www.geocities.com/horge1218/garlic.html
 
auroradrvr

auroradrvr

Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3050235
All I'm saying is that this study (or whatever you want to call it - hypothesis/book report/place description here) is the product of his findings. He did research and this is what he came up with. It would be the same if any of us wanted to do research... we'd put together our findings, reference the sources, and post it somewhere. That's what he did.
Yet for some reason it doesn't have any standing in anyone's minds on this forum until someone with years of schooling in science gives an A+ at the top of his page. That's essentially what you're saying, right? You need someone with a career in science to do the testing and prove/disprove it.
What about his references? Many of them have a science background, and provide proven statements about the properties of garlic and it's effect. He puts two and two together. Nothing more.
All of his references are based on human medical theories and practices. Not marine fish. To equate human medicine to saltwater aquarium fish, is a stretch.
Putting two and two together does not always mean success. For instance, a Blue Hippo is a tang, which eats algae. So it should leave my corals alone. Yet when I put two and two together, it doesn't workout. Blue Hippos are notorious coral munchers.
I don't require that he has a college degree in Chemistry/Marine Bio, but some simple scientific practice would do leaps and bounds for proving this theory. When our fish have Ich, doing proper research, and separating out the tests is the last thing on our minds. Separating the tests and sterilizing the environment guarantees that it was the procedure you are practicing that actually works. In an aquarium, where there many factors, simply adding garlic, and seeing a reduction in the numbers of Ich cysts on a fish is about as scientific as holding a lighter to your finger and saying its hot. There are too many factors in an established aquarium to conclude garlic is effective.
How about Lee Birch's findings? He's been in the hobby since it started basically, and HAS done these experiments. He does have the background. Yet, his conclusions prove that garlic is ineffective at curing Ich.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
YOTN, I asked for the article because of what you stated. Garlic masks the smell of the fish and therefore Ich can no longer 'find' the fish. Almost none of that is true, nor mentioned in the article save for 2 useless sentences. Protozoans neither possess an olfactory system in order to "smell' or have any real form of locomotion. They aren't like mosquitos to humans, or fleas to dogs. Fish contract Ich the same way you or I get a virus.
About the article, if there is nothing I can do to convince you and you do not wish to debate, so be it. I will simply point out my findings about it. There are a couple gross assumptions made by Horge. The basic premise of this 'study' is linking Allicin to marine fish. As just mentioned by AuroraDrvr he is simply connecting dots from established research on Allicin, which I do accept, to some form of garlic application in marine fish. None of his supposing articles have anything to do with marine studies. Since he is not a biologist himself, I would have expected some research on his behalf.
About the assumptions, he really glossed over them. To say that most story of 'success' with garlic comes from people who feed fresh garlic to their fish is a joke. You and I both know that the majority of these stories come from people who add a bottle of garlic they found that the LFS, which as the article stated itself, is useless because of the volatile nature of Allicin. Any potency is long gone with bottled garlic.
Lastly, to me, a reasonable thinker, it seems that the "barricades" he mentioned, would have more then enough to dismiss garlic as effect. The article itself states that research Horge found, for garlic to be effective, some allicin to get past the liver, so much was required, garlic permanently damage their liver.
However this is my 'smoking gun.' Any research if this is held to be true is utterly pointless.
There are two big problems with feeding garlic to fish.
First is the way that an acidic (pH 3 or lower) environment like, say, in the gastric cavity, can irreversibly neutralize alliinase (Lawson & Hughes, 1992). Without that enzyme, no allicin can be formed in such an acidic stomach no matter how much alliin might be ingested. Certainly, better information on the chemistry of gastric juices in fish would be useful.

About the sarcastic reply, as it was meant to be, dude it's the internet, you need to have some thick skin. You didn't invite over for dinner and made fun of you there. It's a faceless forum, I didn't call you an idiot or any form of personal attack.
It is my long standing belief that healthy fish in proper environments can beat, errr... suppress Ich to undetectable levels. Garlic is no more then a placebo. No more then ginkoba helps you study. You take a pill and think it's going to help, so you studier harder and then you remember more. Or you buy some miracle product to increase your car's MPG and when you try it out, you baby the crap out of the car, and what do you know, you got better MPG! No way!!
 
hlcroghan

hlcroghan

Active Member
So....to make a long thread a bit more easy to understand.....no one really knows why garlic may or may not be effective. However, it does seem to help them to stay healthy and sometimes recover from ich. It would be worthwhile to perhaps add it in to a hypo/copper treatment for some more added success in possibly saving your fish.
As for a placebo effect, I think that may be a little incorrect. Fish do not react to placebos. They have no idea what you are doing to them. There is definitely some success in using garlic for the majority of the people that try it.
Now, was that so hard people??....
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/3050346
So....to make a long thread a bit more easy to understand.....no one really knows why garlic may or may not be effective. However, it does seem to help them to stay healthy and sometimes recover from ich. It would be worthwhile to perhaps add it in to a hypo/copper treatment for some more added success in possibly saving your fish.
Now, was that so hard people??....


 
windlasher

windlasher

Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3050350

ya... why didn't they just say that... ?
If you get cancer they are going to recommend chemotherapy even though it does not work for a considerable number of people and they die anyway.
OR to be more succinct.... Couldn't Hurt.
 
pezenfuego

pezenfuego

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/3050346
So....to make a long thread a bit more easy to understand.....no one really knows why garlic may or may not be effective. However, it does seem to help them to stay healthy and sometimes recover from ich. It would be worthwhile to perhaps add it in to a hypo/copper treatment for some more added success in possibly saving your fish.
As for a placebo effect, I think that may be a little incorrect. Fish do not react to placebos. They have no idea what you are doing to them. There is definitely some success in using garlic for the majority of the people that try it.
Now, was that so hard people??....

You should change your name to hlclarification.
 
hlcroghan

hlcroghan

Active Member
LOL. I do this all the time in my personal life too. I love to debate with others but it is a pet peeve of mine when discussions go round and round with no outcome.......I hate to argue and beat a dead horse in other words...

Hence the reason I no longer visit the Aquarium and participate in the political threads.....*snicker*
 
hlcroghan

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3050430
I was trying to have a discussion. It certainly wasn't an argument. But whatever....
I was just generalizing. Not saying that you do it...:) Actually I believe you are quite adept at discussing things without letting it turn into an argument. It is definitely an art, my friend..:)
 
keeshcarm

keeshcarm

Member
Whoa.........So sorry...did not mean to stir up a hornets nest.
Thank you all for the advice

Still have not caught the mandarin.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/3050346
So....to make a long thread a bit more easy to understand.....no one really knows why garlic may or may not be effective. However, it does seem to help them to stay healthy and sometimes recover from ich. It would be worthwhile to perhaps add it in to a hypo/copper treatment for some more added success in possibly saving your fish.
As for a placebo effect, I think that may be a little incorrect. Fish do not react to placebos. They have no idea what you are doing to them. There is definitely some success in using garlic for the majority of the people that try it.
Now, was that so hard people??....

No, I disagree

The placebo effect is meant towards the owner, not the fish themselves. The owner adds X quantity of something and sure enough, the problem goes away. It's what I said on the other thread. If one peorson added a capful of Mountian Dew or Pepsi to their tank a day, and sure enough the Ich went away, D'oh, must have been the MTN Dew or Pepsi...
The article itself points out the facts why garlic does not work for fish. It can't be ingested, as it will be rendered useless by the gastric acids, and for a topical treatment, a saltwater tank so quick dilutes garlic, it also is useless that way.
If you want to argue that garlic is an appetite stimulate, and fish have increased immunity because of their increased intake of food, that's a different ballgame all together. However, I have noted that my Lei Trigger and previous Butterflies and Angels I've kept have been equally put off by foods soaked in garlic, as they were 'suppose to be' attracted to it...
If people like to believe their success in battling Ich was a direct of the addition of garlic so be it. I just have a problem when it is regurgitated with some off the wall random reason, like 'because of garlic, Ich can no longer smell fish' is stated, that's the issue.
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Maybe I should start dosing my tank with onion... women hate me when I've recently eaten onions... perhaps the same will be true with fish and ich.
 
hlcroghan

hlcroghan

Active Member
To the OP, yes, garlic and fish keeping is an extremely discussed topic because as of yet there has been no definitive answer as to why it helps. There can be no doubt that it does do something beneficial most of the time. I think most would agree to that but there are definitely times when may you not see improvement from it. This is similar to when hypo does not work for someone. Hypo, BTW, is proven to kill inverts which is technically what ich is. But sometimes, for whatever reason, it is not completely effective. IMO, the best form of treament is hypo with copper in conjunction with a healthy diet mixed with vitamins and garlic. This way you have covered all your bases. Copper does not work with mandarins though and kick-ich will normally kill them (not always, but a lot) so stick with hypo and diet. I am hoping for the best of luck with your fish.
I get what you are saying about the placebo effect, AquaKnight. All I am saying is that too many people find success with adding garlic into the tank for it to be a bunk theory. I absolutely do NOT agree that it kills ich but like they said earlier, if it helps then it is worth using. I know what you are saying about some fish not liking it so I guess this would be an individual choice based on experience.
 
keeshcarm

keeshcarm

Member
I have the mandarin in hypo, but he will not eat. I have offered mysis, squid,brine, ect frozen...he is not interested in anything and getting thinner.
any suggestions?
 
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