Who for president

[agent-x]

Originally Posted by Jovial
Try and justify killing babies all you want. Whether it's legal or not the fact remains...in the end it will always be murder.
I don't consider our troops murderers, but I guess by your logic they would be. So being that you supports the troops, (by your logic) you also support murder?

 

[btb9000]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
If We had been paying attention how many lives would have been saved globally? How many Jews would have been alive to raise their family? Your statement and thought process isn't looking at the big picture

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
So, if you add up the totals, when we "stick our noses where they don't belong" we've lost 1/3 of the troops we lost in WW2 when we set back and let the world devolve into chaos...
We live in AMERICA. What right do we have to control the world? NONE. It's none of our business. It was not a god-given-right to us Americans to be able to police the world. It is NOT outlined in the constitution that we can control the world.
I'll be voting for Ron Paul.
If you feel the need the recreate the book "1984", then please feel free to do so, I am not going to stop you from voting for someone who will run our country into the ground. But when that time comes. Please be sure to note I'm not going to be sticking my hand out to save your rears.
JMHO

 

[btb9000]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Again you take it to the extreme. We're talking abortions of first trimester babies. That's what the current abortion laws allow. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some of the actions you described actually happen in today's society. There was a couple here in San Antonio recently that killed their newborn infant, and two other children, and stuffed their remains under the house simply because they didn't want to deal with them anymore.
Ever heard of the "Day After Pill". They work wonders...
There is NO need for abortions. Between willing parents to adopt and the D.A.P. there is simply no NEED for abortion. Plain and simple.
JMHO

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by BTB9000
We live in AMERICA. What right do we have to control the world? NONE. It's none of our business. It was not a god-given-right to us Americans to be able to police the world. It is NOT outlined in the constitution that we can control the world.
I'll be voting for Ron Paul.
If you feel the need the recreate the book "1984", then please feel free to do so, I am not going to stop you from voting for someone who will run our country into the ground. But when that time comes. Please be sure to note I'm not going to be sticking my hand out to save your rears.
JMHO
No one was talking about "controlling" the world. What we are talking about it pulling our heads out of the sand, learning from past historical mistakes, and realizing we live on a small planet.
Ron Paul equals an Isolationist, by his own words. Historically it's been that kind of thinking that's "run our country into the ground".
I can't imagine there would be a time when I would need a hand from you. Of course if you ever needed a hand I'd like to think I would offer it should the opportunity arise.

. compassion and charity should be above politics.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by BTB9000
Ever heard of the "Day After Pill". They work wonders...
There is NO need for abortions. Between willing parents to adopt and the D.A.P. there is simply no NEED for abortion. Plain and simple.
JMHO

Yea I've heard of the Day After Pill. And I've also seen the stories where the Pro Lifer Bible Thumpin Pharmacist who refused to fill the doctor's prescription for that pill because it was against their religious beliefs. Guess what? The woman ended up pregnant because she couldn't get the pill in time!!
So you know of willing parents that will adopt a crack baby, or one that has severe mental and physical deformities that will cost thousands of dollars to care for? Are YOU willing to take on that responsibility? What is the D.A.P.? If that's a non-profit organization that's willing to take all unwanted babies, and they get no government assistance to do it, let them work with Planned Parenthood and take those kids. Fine by me.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
...So you know of willing parents that will adopt a crack baby, or one that has severe mental and physical deformities that will cost thousands of dollars to care for? ....
Yup, actually I do know folks who have done both.
Of course I also know folks who volunteer their time, take care of their elderly parents, give to charity, and generally try to give back to society.
Rudedog, there are a lot of people who don't look at money as the bottom line.

 

[btb9000]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
So you know of willing parents that will adopt a crack baby, or one that has severe mental and physical deformities that will cost thousands of dollars to care for? Are YOU willing to take on that responsibility? What is the D.A.P.? If that's a non-profit organization that's willing to take all unwanted babies, and they get no government assistance to do it, let them work with Planned Parenthood and take those kids. Fine by me.
Yes, my best friend adopted a child (4 months at the time) that came from a Meth house (more like a meth lab). The kid is approaching 4 years and he is as normal as one of your Orange County kids.
D.A.P. = Day After Pill ...ALSO.... 2 + 2 = 4
I have considered adopting as well. Why bring a child into this world when you can help out others that are already here? I am not saying I am not going to have children of my own, but there might be an adopted child also.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Yup, actually I do know folks who have done both.
Of course I also know folks who volunteer their time, take care of their elderly parents, give to charity, and generally try to give back to society.
Rudedog, there are a lot of people who don't look at money as the bottom line.

Yup, actually I do know folks who have done both.
Yea, and I bet they're sucking money out of the Welfare System to do it.
Good for you and them. Then set you up a 'society' whereby you take legal rights to every single baby that would normally be aborted, and you go right ahead and take care of them. Just do it on your own nickel, since you're apparently independently wealthy and need absolutely no assistance from the US Govt to spend the estimated $500,000 minimum it would take to care for a baby with those type of disabilities. You can 'give back to society' all you want. But believe me, it takes money from somewhere to get it done.

 

[btb9000]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
No one was talking about "controlling" the world. What we are talking about it pulling our heads out of the sand, learning from past historical mistakes, and realizing we live on a small planet.
Ron Paul equals an Isolationist, by his own words. Historically it's been that kind of thinking that's "run our country into the ground".
I can't imagine there would be a time when I would need a hand from you. Of course if you ever needed a hand I'd like to think I would offer it should the opportunity arise.

. compassion and charity should be above politics.
At least we agree on one point..

Dr. Paul is not a isolationist. He simply does not want to be on the offensive side of most wars. He simply does not want to go around and impose his will on people/countries that do not appreciate it or want our help.
Do you want to know why we haven't won the Iraq war, and probably never will? Because the Iraqis are NOT on our side. I had a nice 2-3 hour conversation with a group of 5 or 6 Iraqi refugees. None of them supported our (the USA's) invasion of Iraq. None of them supported what we are trying to impose on them (Our style of government). They assured me that 75% of Iraq does not like America (not to the extent of the 9/11 terrorists though) and that most of Iraq does not support what we're doing over there.
But if you like to live in a fantasy land, where EVERYONE wants to be like us, talk like us, have our gov't, etc (which they really DON'T) then by all means do so.

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by AGENT-X
I don't consider our troops murderers, but I guess by your logic they would be. So being that you supports the troops, (by your logic) you also support murder?
Because the consumption of badger milk and spark plugs has had detrimental effects to the migratory patterns of the yellow bellied sap sucker.
"I don't consider our troops murderers, but I guess by your logic they would be. So being that you supports the troops, (by your logic) you also support murder?"
Have no idea what your talking about here either. What correlation are you trying to make with this leap?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by BTB9000
At least we agree on one point..

Dr. Paul is not a isolationist. He simply does not want to be on the offensive side of most wars. He simply does not want to go around and impose his will on people/countries that do not appreciate it or want our help.
Do you want to know why we haven't won the Iraq war, and probably never will? Because the Iraqis are NOT on our side. I had a nice 2-3 hour conversation with a group of 5 or 6 Iraqi refugees. None of them supported our (the USA's) invasion of Iraq. None of them supported what we are trying to impose on them (Our style of government). They assured me that 75% of Iraq does not like America (not to the extent of the 9/11 terrorists though) and that most of Iraq does not support what we're doing over there.
But if you like to live in a fantasy land, where EVERYONE wants to be like us, talk like us, have our gov't, etc (which they really DON'T) then by all means do so.
Ron Paul is an isolationist... He refers to himself as a "noninterventionist" in the interview I qouted on page 2 of this thread. He wants to cut and run from Iraq, withdraw from NATO and the UN, withdraw our Indian Ocean Fleets from the Persian Gulf, etc.
We are winning in Iraq. Have you talked to people over there right now? Democracy is working.... I find it curious that you spoke to 5-6 refugees. Why are they here? Why are they refugees here?
How about talking to the THOUSANDS of refugees that fled during Saddam's dictatorship? How about talking to the hundreds of thousands of Kurds that lived in fear every day of their life under Saddam. 75% didn't want "our" form of government? Great. We didn't install our form of government... They voted, remember? The incredible turn out in the face of potential death during their elections should prove to the world that they do want freedom...
We "haven't won" in Iraq because Iraq has been flooded with foreign fighters, weapons and bombs from foreign countries, and Al Qaeda. We aren't fighting to local population there, we are fighting terrorists, ilsamic radicals, militias, and foreign operatives.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
...
Yea, and I bet they're sucking money out of the Welfare System to do it.
Good for you and them. Then set you up a 'society' whereby you take legal rights to every single baby that would normally be aborted, and you go right ahead and take care of them. ....
Nope. Surprsingly some people make the neccessary sacrifices to raise children on their own dime.
I would argue our Declaration of Independence gives an unborn child the right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness". I would argue our society WAS founded to do just what you now oppose.
Do you know how much obesity costs our country every year? How about heart disease? Cancer? Old age? Poor people? Orphans? Should we get rid of all of them a well? Again, you realize many of your points were attempted by the Nazi's in the 30's and 40's right? They wanted a perfect society of perfect people. The only way to get that was to kill millions. It wasn't just Jews that Hitler gassed.
I will say Rudedog, this has been a welcome debate, and I respect the fact that you are willing to cut to the heart of the matter instead of sticking to the Planned Parenthood talking points when discussing abortion.

 

[jovial]

Good Points.

 

[mushroomss]

go hilary!

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Nope. Surprsingly some people make the neccessary sacrifices to raise children on their own dime.
I would argue our Declaration of Independence gives an unborn child the right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness". I would argue our society WAS founded to do just what you now oppose.
Do you know how much obesity costs our country every year? How about heart disease? Cancer? Old age? Poor people? Orphans? Should we get rid of all of them a well? Again, you realize many of your points were attempted by the Nazi's in the 30's and 40's right? They wanted a perfect society of perfect people. The only way to get that was to kill millions. It wasn't just Jews that Hitler gassed.
I will say Rudedog, this has been a welcome debate, and I respect the fact that you are willing to cut to the heart of the matter instead of sticking to the Planned Parenthood talking points when discussing abortion.

I listen to the ultra conservatives like you on a daily basis. The Pro Lifers are like the Jesus freaks. They twist the wording around to their liking and make the person who is just trying to make a decision that is best for them out to be the villain. I like your spin on the Declaration. Don't think the founding fathers knew of the existence of abortion, different races, womens rights, or how religion would go to the fanatical right when they wrote them. You compare abortion to natural or causitive diseases? LOL. Yea, someone with cancer purposely caught that so they can get the government to help cure them. Smoking? Obesity? Heart Disease? Go right ahead and make it illegal to smoke, eat out at a fast food restaurants, or fail to exercise. Talk about Nazi Regime. You compare someone's rights in the US, given to them by the Declaration you refer to, as to those of the Nazi's? How dare you.
Pro Lifers keep spouting off about an unborn fetuses rights. Until they're born, THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS. Show me anywhere in the Declaration or the Constitution where it states at what stage in life a person has these rights. Where does it say that a fetus in the second trimester legally has all the rights and privileges defined in our country's laws. You can't because IT DOESN'T EXIST. The only place it exists is in your feable minds where you believe 'God' or 'Jesus' says so. Sorry dude, but the only place either of those two exist are in the minds of those who believe they exist. The religious fanatics are the ones who screwed up this world. If it weren't for religion, the majority of wars that have occured in the course of the history of the world would have never occurred. We wouldn't be fighting that ridiculous 'war' you so love so much to be in over in Iraq if it weren't for relgion. You want to believe there's some almighty power that's controlling YOUR life, go right ahead. But don't push your belief's or philosophies down my throat, and deny me MY rights as defined by the Declaration of Independence. It's called separation of church and state. You keep your religious beliefs out of my laws.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by mushroomss

go hilary!
What do you like about Hillary?

 

[darthtang aw]

Rudedog, you have in a strange way brought up responsibility to society when it com,es down for who pays for that child.. There is a cause and effect for every action. Why abortion? why not use a condom and a pill. You can be responsible before the abortion issue ever comes up. Yet we offer yet another get out of jail free card for those that wish to have --- unprotected in abortion. I am sorry, If you are an adult and still manage to get pregnant unwantedly in this day and age you should be fixed permanently if and when you have an abortion.
BTB9000, Ron Paul wants to cut all ties with world organizations. Even NATO. So how exacvtly would we be involved in world politics at all if we are not part of the UN or NATO. He is an isolationist, pure and simple. You can't spin it otherwise.

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Pro Lifers keep spouting off about an unborn fetuses rights. Until they're born, THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS. Show me anywhere in the Declaration or the Constitution where it states at what stage in life a person has these rights. Where does it say that a fetus in the second trimester legally has all the rights and privileges defined in our country's laws. You can't because IT DOESN'T EXIST. The only place it exists is in your feable minds where you believe 'God' or 'Jesus' says so.
Show me where it says they don't have these rights.
It doesn't. It says every "person" has rights. It is up to society to define whether minorities, women, elderly, mentally retarded, and unborn children are considered people.

 

[phunckie]

Originally Posted by BTB9000
Dr. Paul is not a isolationist. He simply does not want to be on the offensive side of most wars. He simply does not want to go around and impose his will on people/countries that do not appreciate it or want our help.
Do you want to know why we haven't won the Iraq war, and probably never will? Because the Iraqis are NOT on our side. I had a nice 2-3 hour conversation with a group of 5 or 6 Iraqi refugees. None of them supported our (the USA's) invasion of Iraq. None of them supported what we are trying to impose on them (Our style of government). They assured me that 75% of Iraq does not like America (not to the extent of the 9/11 terrorists though) and that most of Iraq does not support what we're doing over there.
But if you like to live in a fantasy land, where EVERYONE wants to be like us, talk like us, have our gov't, etc (which they really DON'T) then by all means do so.
You did a much better job of saying what I've been trying to say.
I agree with you 100%.
I knew there had to be at least ONE more Ron Paul supporter around here.
I don't know about where you are, but the support numbers are growing rampantly around here.....

 

[phunckie]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
I listen to the ultra conservatives like you on a daily basis. The Pro Lifers are like the Jesus freaks. They twist the wording around to their liking and make the person who is just trying to make a decision that is best for them out to be the villain. I like your spin on the Declaration. Don't think the founding fathers knew of the existence of abortion, different races, womens rights, or how religion would go to the fanatical right when they wrote them. You compare abortion to natural or causitive diseases? LOL. Yea, someone with cancer purposely caught that so they can get the government to help cure them. Smoking? Obesity? Heart Disease? Go right ahead and make it illegal to smoke, eat out at a fast food restaurants, or fail to exercise. Talk about Nazi Regime. You compare someone's rights in the US, given to them by the Declaration you refer to, as to those of the Nazi's? How dare you.
Pro Lifers keep spouting off about an unborn fetuses rights. Until they're born, THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS. Show me anywhere in the Declaration or the Constitution where it states at what stage in life a person has these rights. Where does it say that a fetus in the second trimester legally has all the rights and privileges defined in our country's laws. You can't because IT DOESN'T EXIST. The only place it exists is in your feable minds where you believe 'God' or 'Jesus' says so. Sorry dude, but the only place either of those two exist are in the minds of those who believe they exist. The religious fanatics are the ones who screwed up this world. If it weren't for religion, the majority of wars that have occured in the course of the history of the world would have never occurred. We wouldn't be fighting that ridiculous 'war' you so love so much to be in over in Iraq if it weren't for relgion. You want to believe there's some almighty power that's controlling YOUR life, go right ahead. But don't push your belief's or philosophies down my throat, and deny me MY rights as defined by the Declaration of Independence. It's called separation of church and state. You keep your religious beliefs out of my laws.
You are a sad and bitter person......