Why did my urchin die so fast??

[noodlemmy]

Hi everyone! I'm new to the board and new to salt fish, although I've had freshwater fish of many kinds all my life.
To give a little background info... My tank has been set up about 2 1/2 months. It's a 20 high with an Emporer 280, sponge filter, live sand, and some live rock. My ammonia has been at 0 from almost the beginning (when it had a spike it was very small), the pH is at 8.2, my salt density is correct, and there are no nitrates or nitrites to be spoken for.
We haven't lost any fish the whole time. From the beginning we had 2 green reef chromis and 2 yellow tail damsels - all about 1" long - 2 blue leg hermits and 2 scarlet leg hermits. There were 3 peppermint shrimp which lasted about 2 1/2 weeks, but all 3 died within a day of the first dying... After about a month we added an ocellaris clown and a high fin banded goby and everyone has been living wonderfully since.
Three days ago I purchased an urchin from a lfs. It was active there and active until the morning after I put it into my tank. I figured it was just because they are more active at night. It hasn't moved from its spot, and today its feet have stopped moving around like they were and its spines started falling off. Apparently it's dead.
What the heck did I do wrong?? Thank you in advance for your time and information!
Emily

 

[rujelus22]

Well could be one of two things either poor water quality which if your readings are right it's not, or lack of food. How much algea do you have in your tank, they need a lot.

 

[noodlemmy]

There's some algae on the live rock, some on the gravel and the back of the tank. I try to keep the front and sides pretty clean but leave the back alone. After I looked again, my salinity wasn't what I thought it was! It was a little too high. I did a water change and corrected it. It was due for a change anyways. Is that what could have done the urchin in? Now I feel really bad

 

[alyssia]

How long did you acclimate it? What is your sg? What are your water readings?

 

[rujelus22]

High salinity could definitely done it, they are very picky about changes in the water, they fill there bodies with water and move it around in sacs, that's how they get there spines to move

 

[viet-tin]

It might be the way your acclimating it. Are you using tap water? Tap water may contain copper which is deadly to inverts.

 

[debbie]

You have been asked some very good questions and given some good possibilities too. Urchins..... :thinking: well after taking a stab at keeping one myself I have learned alot about them.
My tank is 2 1/2 years old, key number one is to not add any stars or urchins till your tank is a min of 6 months old.
Salinity should be between 1.025-1.026 for them. No traces of copper as mentioned too.
What do they eat? Well this in" my opinion " is a hard one. We all believe algae of course and yes they sure do, they eat the green, your nice red,pink, purple coraline algae too. But do we really know this is all they eat in nature?
Acclimatization of these creatures is very cruitial as is water quality and food for them.
Many folks with large aquariums seem to have luck with keeping urchins I can honestly say that my beautiful purple pincushion urchin was not so lucky. I did have mine for 10 months but in that time I found that there just was not enough food "naturally" in the tank for him. I spot fed with algae sheets and wafers with no success.
So now I enjoy seeing the urchins I cannot keep successfully in the home aquarium when we go to Hawaii every winter snorkeling. This is the best and most beautiful way to truly appreciate these animals......

Don't feel bad, we have all made mistakes with this hobby and this is how we learn...

Do post any questions you have here before adding something you are not sure of to your tank. There are many here that are very at giving you the best info you can get.

 

[ctgretzky9]

Originally Posted by noodlemmy
Hi everyone! I'm new to the board and new to salt fish, although I've had freshwater fish of many kinds all my life.
To give a little background info... My tank has been set up about 2 1/2 months. It's a 20 high with an Emporer 280, sponge filter, live sand, and some live rock. My ammonia has been at 0 from almost the beginning (when it had a spike it was very small), the pH is at 8.2, my salt density is correct, and there are no nitrates or nitrites to be spoken for.
We haven't lost any fish the whole time. From the beginning we had 2 green reef chromis and 2 yellow tail damsels - all about 1" long - 2 blue leg hermits and 2 scarlet leg hermits. There were 3 peppermint shrimp which lasted about 2 1/2 weeks, but all 3 died within a day of the first dying... After about a month we added an ocellaris clown and a high fin banded goby and everyone has been living wonderfully since.
Three days ago I purchased an urchin from a lfs. It was active there and active until the morning after I put it into my tank. I figured it was just because they are more active at night. It hasn't moved from its spot, and today its feet have stopped moving around like they were and its spines started falling off. Apparently it's dead.
What the heck did I do wrong?? Thank you in advance for your time and information!
Emily
Be sure to clean that emporer a LOT. It will eventually become a nitrate factory. Nything with a sponge, clean that as well.
I note that you are only testing for the beginner 4...amm, trites, trates and pH...it is now time to start learning the rest...alkalinity, calcium, phosphates, and to a lesser degree magnesium. It is alos a good idea (judging by your invert deaths) to check for any copper in the tank.
Your bio load...you have 5 fish in a 20 h...dont add anymore.
Now the urchin...like starfish, IMO, they need larger tanks, with a lot of live rock and substrate surface to cruise. They eat encrusting sponges and other micro fauna that we arent exactly sure of. What we do know, is the rock must be aged well, with a lot of "slime" for lack of a better description. They sometimes also like some meats if they come across such food.
You did not let us know your acclimation procedure. This is one of those creatures, where a very long acclimation is needed. They are very sensitive to salinity changes, as well as pH etc...2-3 hours is reccomended, using drip or other slow means.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by noodlemmy
It hasn't moved from its spot, and today its feet have stopped moving around like they were and its spines started falling off. Apparently it's dead.
What the heck did I do wrong?? Thank you in advance for your time and information!
Emily
These are the classic symptoms of osmotic shock from inadequately acclimating the urchin. In other words the salinity difference between your tank and the tank it came from was too big a difference for the amount of time you spent acclimating.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
These are the classic symptoms of osmotic shock from inadequately acclimating the urchin. In other words the salinity difference between your tank and the tank it came from was too big a difference for the amount of time you spent acclimating.

It is definitely not starvation.
Your tank is quite young and quite small, IMO, for an urchin.
What are your SPECIFIC water parameters. I would bet that your specific gravity is still too LOW for these animals. As mentioned the specific gravity should be 1.025 to 1.026, not the typical 1.021 which is FATAL IMO to these animals in many cases.
Additionally, if you did a typical LFS acclimation (float bag, add a bit of water, release) this is also a problem.
Personally, I would not consider another in this tank size. Seastars and urchins, along with many other invertebrates, have very special needs and I would definitely encourage lots of reseach before purchasing more. You've found a good place for that

In addition, I don't know if you were planning on adding more but you are probably at max stocking level on your fish in that size tank. In stocking rates and levels, it is VERY VERY different from freshwater fish.

 

[fallnhorse]

heavy metals sounds like. I bought one just about like you. Really early. He did great until the pet store told me to use cooper medicine for ick and didn't tell me it was bad for him. Was FOREVER and a day till i got all the cooper out.

 

[lion_crazz]

Sounds like Bang hit it right on the head.
If you don't mind me asking though, what kind of salt do you use?

 

[dburr]

I def agree with Bang. I have one in my sump, it's about 2 years i've had it and haven't fed it yet. :scared:

 

[noodlemmy]

Wow!! So many great replies. I definately learned my lesson. I just feel horrible that it had to be at the expense of the poor urchin
I work at a pet store whose owner and managers have very high opinions of themselves as salt keepers. Beings that I didn't know ANYTHING about it myself, I believed everything they said. I really thought they were different than the other stores, but obviously I was wrong!!
I did do the "float, puncture bag, release" method. They told me I don't need to test the copper, alkalinity, etc. and those were just useless tests!! I have not added any more fish to my tank even though they keep trying to get me to. Everytime something new comes in they tell me I should get it (including mushrooms, corals, nudibranchs, etc.), but from what I was reading online I knew that was wrong. I guess there are some things that I did right!
The information I've gathered just from this message board in the past 2 days is so much more useful than everything they've told me over a year's time!!
I can see plainly that an urchin is not for me. The only inverts that I am ever going to attempt again are my little hermits. At least I haven't killed any of them yet... Besides the mistakes mentioned so far, how does my tank sound?? I'm sorry if I've put this thread in the wrong forum. Maybe I should've started it on the newbie board. I feel like such a dunce about all this now after believing I had such a great start and great advice :notsure:

 

[ophiura]

The worst mistake that you could make was not doing any more research than what you were told. And you have not done that
Everyone in this hobby has made mistakes.
I, for example, had a similar thought. I had kept freshwater tanks all my life, so went out and started a 10g salt tank with an undergravel filter (with white gravel), a whisper hang on filter, I think 2 damsels, 2 bar gobies, an condylactus anemone and a brittlestar.
And if that brittlestar could "scream" it was.
That was a hard lesson to learn, seeing especially as I studied brittlestars specifically for many years.
So it would be many many years before I kept anything more than the one surviving damsel.
I didn't have these boards at the time though. So I am sure that you will be well on the road to keeping additional animals. Just do a lot of reading and research

So what are your water parameters, including alkalinity, which is actually important to measure!

 

[noodlemmy]

Originally Posted by ophiura
The worst mistake that you could make was not doing any more research than what you were told. And you have not done that
Everyone in this hobby has made mistakes.
I, for example, had a similar thought. I had kept freshwater tanks all my life, so went out and started a 10g salt tank with an undergravel filter (with white gravel), a whisper hang on filter, I think 2 damsels, 2 bar gobies, an condylactus anemone and a brittlestar.
And if that brittlestar could "scream" it was.
That was a hard lesson to learn, seeing especially as I studied brittlestars specifically for many years.
So it would be many many years before I kept anything more than the one surviving damsel.
I didn't have these boards at the time though. So I am sure that you will be well on the road to keeping additional animals. Just do a lot of reading and research

So what are your water parameters, including alkalinity, which is actually important to measure!

Thanks for the encouragement I tested yesterday (brought water in to work). Ammonia, Trates, and Trites at 0. pH at 8.2. SG is at 1.021. I didn't test the copper, alkalinity, etc. because I had gone in to test it before I read all the replies on the board and realized how important it is!! Like I said, they told me I didn't need to do it, that it was unnecessary testing. I will go back today and test the other items and repost.

 

[ophiura]

Copper is very unlikely to be the culprit in this case. I wouldn't worry about that.
Most certainly it was acclimation/osmotic shock as the specific gravity is fatally low, IMO, for echinoderms and many invertebrates.
Alkalinity is, however, and important one to keep track of as a standard part of your testing.

 

[noodlemmy]

Well.... The store doesn't DO alkalinity tests and doesn't even have a kit pulled off the shelf for our use!! They wouldn't let me use one. I'm going to go back when a different manager is there who will let me pull one.
The only other things I could test for were copper (it was 0) and phosphate (it was at 0.5)

 

[lion_crazz]

Many stores do not do alkalinity tests for their customers. None of the stores I ever worked at used to. I used to bring in my own alk test so that I could test my customers' alk when they brought their water in for me.
What salt do you use noodlemmy?

 

[noodlemmy]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
Many stores do not do alkalinity tests for their customers. None of the stores I ever worked at used to. I used to bring in my own alk test so that I could test my customers' alk when they brought their water in for me.
What salt do you use noodlemmy?
They acted like I was goofy for even asking about it. I wanted to test for other things before and they told me I didn't need to worry about any of that... just ammonia, pH, and occasionally trates and trites. I really had to put up with crap today just testing phosphates and copper. It's like they take it personally because I'm not listening to them about testing.
I think someone asked the salt question before and I forgot to answer... sorry! I use Instant Ocean.
Emily