Yet another reason to ban assault weapons

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3004340
Our Founding Fathers where very wise.You should read a bit about what they had in mind for our country.
You keep spouting these one-liners from people who've been dead almost 200 years. Although it's interesting to see what their perceptions were, they are irrelevent in modern-day times. Quit relying on quotes from the past. We no longer have only 13 Colonies and a few hundred thousand people living here. The designers of the Constitution and Declaration based their opinons and beliefs on how their lives were affected by the tyrannical rule of England. This country isn't run by the British any longer. They had no idea what the future would bring, and how their writing of the Constitution would bring so much controversy. They themselves called these two important pieces of history "Living Documents". They understood that the Constitution had the possibility of being modified. That's why they included provisions in it to do so. The Founding Fathers were wise for their time. If they lived in today's world, their ideologies and perceptions would most likely be quite different. Of course we have no way of knowing this, but I'd rather live for today and the future, than rely on what some person said 200 years ago that applied to the times in the past.

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004373
You keep spouting these one-liners from people who've been dead almost 200 years.
They knew a thing or two about history,you should learn about some too.
The things these men wrote and said are timeless.These arent just quotes but ideas,morals,values,principals.......They dont have expiration dates on them.
Time passes us by and things do change ,but man kinds human nature does not change.If you will read their writings not just the ones that pertain to guns but to the principles and values they lived by and used to guide them in writing the Constitution you might better understand.
They saw what men are capable of through history and what they themselves where subject to and gave us the Bill of Rights as a shield to protect ourselves then and now.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004373
You keep spouting these one-liners from people who've been dead almost 200 years. Although it's interesting to see what their perceptions were, they are irrelevent in modern-day times. Quit relying on quotes from the past. We no longer have only 13 Colonies and a few hundred thousand people living here. The designers of the Constitution and Declaration based their opinons and beliefs on how their lives were affected by the tyrannical rule of England. This country isn't run by the British any longer. They had no idea what the future would bring, and how their writing of the Constitution would bring so much controversy. They themselves called these two important pieces of history "Living Documents". They understood that the Constitution had the possibility of being modified. That's why they included provisions in it to do so. The Founding Fathers were wise for their time. If they lived in today's world, their ideologies and perceptions would most likely be quite different. Of course we have no way of knowing this, but I'd rather live for today and the future, than rely on what some person said 200 years ago that applied to the times in the past.
Then gather enough votes to CHANGE the constitution to read you have the right to bear arms except............
This was done with the "god" given rights and equality....so why not change the constitution then if it is a good idea.......

 

[veni vidi vici]

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories." ~Thomas Jefferson~
Our government is getting to big and to intrusive,these are not the ideas of the founders.

 

[veni vidi vici]

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"
~Samuel Adams~

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3004390
Then gather enough votes to CHANGE the constitution to read you have the right to bear arms except............
This was done with the "god" given rights and equality....so why not change the constitution then if it is a good idea.......
*Inalienable Rights
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315
This is a mouthful from a bunch of dead guys,and i dont see the word England in there,but i do see "any form of government "

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004220
From the first article:
The memo said one of Gonzalez's safe houses was discovered in Mission. It was stockpiled with assault weapons and tactical vests.
I first saw this story in my hard-copy newspaper this morning. They had a picture of the weapons they seized in this raid. Half of them were assault-type weapons.
OK so the same guy who had explosives and gernades had some "assault weapons". So what? How is infringing on my constitutional right to own a gun going to help the situation? You can't honestly believe the same guy who bought grenades and explosives is going to have a hard time buying semiautomatic weapons through those same sources do you?
It's time the government started punishing criminals for the illegal use of a legal product rather than stepping on use lawful citizens rights.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004373
You keep spouting these one-liners from people who've been dead almost 200 years. Although it's interesting to see what their perceptions were, they are irrelevent in modern-day times. Quit relying on quotes from the past. We no longer have only 13 Colonies and a few hundred thousand people living here. The designers of the Constitution and Declaration based their opinons and beliefs on how their lives were affected by the tyrannical rule of England. This country isn't run by the British any longer. They had no idea what the future would bring, and how their writing of the Constitution would bring so much controversy. They themselves called these two important pieces of history "Living Documents". They understood that the Constitution had the possibility of being modified. That's why they included provisions in it to do so. The Founding Fathers were wise for their time. If they lived in today's world, their ideologies and perceptions would most likely be quite different. Of course we have no way of knowing this, but I'd rather live for today and the future, than rely on what some person said 200 years ago that applied to the times in the past.
Those dead old white guys wrote the rule book but were wise enough to include a provision for the rules to change with the times. If you are ascared of the mean ol "assault weapons" then go through the proper channels to change the rules to take them away. It's gonna take a 2/3rds vote in the senate and house plus ratification of 3/4's of the states for me to give up any gun I own. I know a whole lot of others who feel the same way about it.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3004388
They knew a thing or two about history,you should learn about some too.
The things these men wrote and said are timeless.These arent just quotes but ideas,morals,values,principals.......They dont have expiration dates on them.
Time passes us by and things do change ,but man kinds human nature does not change.If you will read their writings not just the ones that pertain to guns but to the principles and values they lived by and used to guide them in writing the Constitution you might better understand.
They saw what men are capable of through history and what they themselves where subject to and gave us the Bill of Rights.
That's all it is - history. History provides information of what occurred in the past. It provides lessons of what this country did right, and what it's done wrong. But you don't live your entire live by basing it on historic facts and principles. It we all did that, we'd still be living in the dark ages. The Bill Of Rights are nothing but guidelines. But not everything in that document is etched in stone. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. Expand your horizons. Look into the future. Some of their quotes are timeless. However, many others sound ridiculous if you relate them to modern times. Sorry, but Washington, Adams, and Jefferson weren't the saints and all-knowing individuals you make them out to be. The Founding Fathers as you call them also contributed to some of thsi country's failures. You're the history freak. Look it up.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3004423
OK so the same guy who had explosives and gernades had some "assault weapons". So what? How is infringing on my constitutional right to own a gun going to help the situation? You can't honestly believe the same guy who bought grenades and explosives is going to have a hard time buying semiautomatic weapons through those same sources do you?
It's time the government started punishing criminals for the illegal use of a legal product rather than stepping on use lawful citizens rights.
So what. Good answer. As long as I can have my guns, Mexico's problems are there's, not mine. As long as I can have my guns, I could care less if less than 10% of the crimes in this country are committed with assault weapons. How about Zero Percent? You and Vici keep equating the Constitution to the Holy Bible, touting all our inalienable rights. How about the right to not live in fear that I may be just walking down the street one day, and some maniac starts shooting at me for no reason? That's my pursuit of happiness. But I'm denied that right because YOU decided owning a gun is more important than living.
How do you propose they tighten the laws even more to fight crime? Doesn't that intrude into your 1st Amendment rights? How much more can they punish them? Stick them all in overcrowded prisons? I like the idea of the death penalty. You shoot someone for any reason, and you are found guilty for that offense, death penalty. You got 30 days from your sentencing to prove they are wrong. After that, electric chair. No appeals, no waiting 10 years, 30 days. But of course that's inhumane and violates a couple of other Amendments.

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004527
That's all it is - history. History provides information of what occurred in the past. It provides lessons of what this country did right, and what it's done wrong. But you don't live your entire live by basing it on historic facts and principles. It we all did that, we'd still be living in the dark ages. The Bill Of Rights are nothing but guidelines. But not everything in that document is etched in stone. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. Expand your horizons. Look into the future. Some of their quotes are timeless. However, many others sound ridiculous if you relate them to modern times. Sorry, but Washington, Adams, and Jefferson weren't the saints and all-knowing individuals you make them out to be. The Founding Fathers as you call them also contributed to some of thsi country's failures. You're the history freak. Look it up.
“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
~Sir Winston Churchill~
Here is a history lesson for you.
Go back as far back in history as the gun was invented and show me where it has had a positive outcome for the governed when the government took away firearms from the people.

 

[veni vidi vici]

Let me help you out. This is as a direct result of gun control
Government / Dates / Civilians Killed
Ottoman Turkey / 1915-1917/ 1-1.5 million
Soviet Union/ 1929-1945 / 20 million
Nazi Germany
& Occupied Europe/1933-1945/20 million
China, Nationalist/1927-1949/10 million
China, Red/1949-1952/1957-1960/1966-1976/20-35 million
Guatemala/1960-1981/100,000-200,000
Uganda/1971-1979/300,000
Cambodia
(Khmer Rouge)/1975-1979/2 million
Rwanda/1994/800,000

 

[veni vidi vici]

Now here is how these governments did it:
"Gun Control" Laws

[hr]
Art. 166, Pen. Code, 1866
& 1911 Proclamation, 1915
Resolutions, 1918
Decree, July 12, 1920
Art. 59 & 182, Pen. code, 1926
Law on Firearms & Ammun., 1928
Weapon Law, March 18, 1938
Regulations against Jews, 1938
Art. 205, Crim. Code, 1914
Art. 186-87, Crim. Code, 1935
Act of Feb. 20, 1951
Act of Oct. 22, 1957
Decree 36, Nov 25 •Act of 1932
Decree 386, 1947
Decree 283, 1964
Firearms Ordinance, 1955
Firearms Act, 1970
Art. 322-328, Penal Code
Royal Ordinance 55, 1938
Decree-Law No. 12, 1979

 

[veni vidi vici]

And then..........................See the historic pattern??????

[hr]
• Permits required •Government list of owners
•Ban on possession
•Licensing of owners
•Ban on possession
•Severe penalties
•Registration & Licensing
•Stricter handgun laws
•Ban on possession
•Government permit system
•Ban on private ownership
•Prison or death to "counter-revolutionary criminals" and anyone resisting any government program
•Death penalty for supply guns to such "criminals"
•Register guns & owners •Licensing with high fees
•Prohibit carrying guns
•Bans on guns, sharp tools •Confiscation powers
•Register all guns & owners •Licenses for transactions
•Warrantless searches •Confiscation powers
•Licenses for guns, owners, ammunition & transactions
•Photo ID with fingerprints •License inspected quarterly
•Register guns, owners, ammunition •Owners must justify
need •Concealable guns illegal •Confiscating powers

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004538
So what. Good answer. As long as I can have my guns, Mexico's problems are there's, not mine. As long as I can have my guns, I could care less if less than 10% of the crimes in this country are committed with assault weapons. How about Zero Percent? You and Vici keep equating the Constitution to the Holy Bible, touting all our inalienable rights. How about the right to not live in fear that I may be just walking down the street one day, and some maniac starts shooting at me for no reason? That's my pursuit of happiness. But I'm denied that right because YOU decided owning a gun is more important than living.
How do you propose they tighten the laws even more to fight crime? Doesn't that intrude into your 1st Amendment rights? How much more can they punish them? Stick them all in overcrowded prisons? I like the idea of the death penalty. You shoot someone for any reason, and you are found guilty for that offense, death penalty. You got 30 days from your sentencing to prove they are wrong. After that, electric chair. No appeals, no waiting 10 years, 30 days. But of course that's inhumane and violates a couple of other Amendments.
Mexico's problems, be it poverty or crime are up to Mexico to solve. I am not giving up my rights to my private property or rights to own a gun because mexico doesn't have an honest government.
You claim Mexicos crime problems are caused by access to assault weapons in this country yet we don't have problems with drug cartels shooting it out with the police with said weapons everyday. Hmmmm, way more weapons in circulation and a slight fraction of the amount of crime committed with them. WOW! Could it possibly be that the weapons aren't the problem? DING DING DING!!! Reality calling Bionic.....
You fear guns. Don't know what to tell you. They are a fact of life in this country. I guess you could move to Cuba or North Korea, they don't have hardly any guns in those countries. You can't uncreate them.
Easy laws for gun crimes. Commit an intentional criminal act involving the use of a gun minimum of 10 years. Discharge a gun while committing an intentional criminal act 20 years in jail. Injure a person 30 years. No good time applied to sentences for gun crimes.
Also need to change the law so anyone convicted of murder receives one all encompassing appeal rather than spending 20 years appealing every little aspect of their trial AND THEM APPEALING BASED ON THE FACT THAT EXECUTING THEM AFTER BEING ON DEATH ROW 20 YEARS (It actually happened).
If you eliminate the ACLU from the equation so jail is actually seen as a punishment instead of an inconvenience it will eliminate a whole lot of crime.

 

[posiden]

reefraff,
I agree with your last sentence whole heartily. Two to a 8x10 cell. WTF. Our service men on subs get 18" and they have to share the bunk with another.
But this subject is another thread. Just thought I would comment on tho.
Back to the subject.

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004538
So what. Good answer. As long as I can have my guns, Mexico's problems are there's, not mine. As long as I can have my guns, I could care less if less than 10% of the crimes in this country are committed with assault weapons.
Its less than 1%, more murders are committed with hand and feet than with assault weapons and yes Mexico's problems are theirs alone.Im glad to see your coming around.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004538
How about Zero Percent? You and Vici keep equating the Constitution to the Holy Bible, touting all our inalienable rights. How about the right to not live in fear that I may be just walking down the street one day, and some maniac starts shooting at me for no reason? That's my pursuit of happiness. But I'm denied that right because YOU decided owning a gun is more important than living.
Your pursuit of happiness dosent guarantee that you will catch it.And you have a greater chance of being killed with a left hook or a Nike shoe that a assault weapon and even a bigger risk of being killed by a heart attack then a firearm of any sort.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004538
How do you propose they tighten the laws even more to fight crime? Doesn't that intrude into your 1st Amendment rights? How much more can they punish them? Stick them all in overcrowded prisons? I like the idea of the death penalty. You shoot someone for any reason, and you are found guilty for that offense, death penalty. You got 30 days from your sentencing to prove they are wrong. After that, electric chair. No appeals, no waiting 10 years, 30 days. But of course that's inhumane and violates a couple of other Amendments.
What does the 1st amendment have to do with any of your above question? You really have never read the Constitution ,The Declaration or the Bill of Rights have you?

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3004700
Mexico's problems, be it poverty or crime are up to Mexico to solve. I am not giving up my rights to my private property or rights to own a gun because mexico doesn't have an honest government.
You claim Mexicos crime problems are caused by access to assault weapons in this country yet we don't have problems with drug cartels shooting it out with the police with said weapons everyday. Hmmmm, way more weapons in circulation and a slight fraction of the amount of crime committed with them. WOW! Could it possibly be that the weapons aren't the problem? DING DING DING!!! Reality calling Bionic.....
You fear guns. Don't know what to tell you. They are a fact of life in this country. I guess you could move to Cuba or North Korea, they don't have hardly any guns in those countries. You can't uncreate them.
Easy laws for gun crimes. Commit an intentional criminal act involving the use of a gun minimum of 10 years. Discharge a gun while committing an intentional criminal act 20 years in jail. Injure a person 30 years. No good time applied to sentences for gun crimes.
Also need to change the law so anyone convicted of murder receives one all encompassing appeal rather than spending 20 years appealing every little aspect of their trial AND THEM APPEALING BASED ON THE FACT THAT EXECUTING THEM AFTER BEING ON DEATH ROW 20 YEARS (It actually happened).
If you eliminate the ACLU from the equation so jail is actually seen as a punishment instead of an inconvenience it will eliminate a whole lot of crime.
So where you going to house all the thousand's of prisoners? The jails are at full capacity now. I know, let's just make Escape From New York a reality! "My name is Pliskin, Snake Pliskin".

Read the newspapers. There were articles recently that talked about all the new drug cartels in America. Atlanta area has become one of the biggest ones. You just don't know about it because it's not in your own backyard.
I have no fear of guns. I've probably owned more weapons than you ever will (DING DING! My brother owned a gun shop). I just know where their proper place is, and what types of guns a normal citizen should be able to own. You want to use the 2nd Amendment to justify allowing Joe Smo who hasn't a clue how to even load an Uzi, to go out and buy one so he can play Rambo with his beer drinking buddies. That's not what your Founding Fathers intended behind the meaning of the Amendment. But of course Vici will repeat for the THOUSANDTH time the same stupid quotes from a bunch of dead guys to validate his cause.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3004733
Its less than 1%, more murders are committed with hand and feet than with assault weapons and yes Mexico's problems are theirs alone.Im glad to see your coming around.
Your pursuit of happiness dosent guarantee that you will catch it.And you have a greater chance of being killed with a left hook or a Nike shoe that a assault weapon and even a bigger risk of being killed by a heart attack then a firearm of any sort.
What does the 1st amendment have to do with any of your above question? You really have never read the Constitution ,The Declaration or the Bill of Rights have you?

Learn to read. My first comment was a response to reefraff. OK. So it's supposedly 1%. That 1% more than ZERO. So as long as you can own a gun, you could care less who gets killed by one, no matter what the circumstances are. Why shouldn't
Why shouldn't I be able to catch my pursuit of happiness? I can't because you want to own a gun? Last time I checked, you didn't run this country.
"The right to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Nice liitle open-ended phrase at the end of the 1st Amendment. Pretty much opens up any issue the American people would have aginst the government's policies - i.e. Automatic death sentence for any crime committed with a gun.
If you prefer, defer to the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Amendments on this issue. They all apply as well...

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3004877
So where you going to house all the thousand's of prisoners? The jails are at full capacity now. I know, let's just make Escape From New York a reality! "My name is Pliskin, Snake Pliskin".

Read the newspapers. There were articles recently that talked about all the new drug cartels in America. Atlanta area has become one of the biggest ones. You just don't know about it because it's not in your own backyard.
I have no fear of guns. I've probably owned more weapons than you ever will (DING DING! My brother owned a gun shop). I just know where their proper place is, and what types of guns a normal citizen should be able to own. You want to use the 2nd Amendment to justify allowing Joe Smo who hasn't a clue how to even load an Uzi, to go out and buy one so he can play Rambo with his beer drinking buddies. That's not what your Founding Fathers intended behind the meaning of the Amendment. But of course Vici will repeat for the THOUSANDTH time the same stupid quotes from a bunch of dead guys to validate his cause.
Based on some of your posts I don't believe you have owned enough guns to know the difference between automatic and semi automatic guns. That or you are intentionally making false assertions. What is the difference between Joe Schmo loading up an UZI or a Rugar Ranch Riffle except for the fact the Rugar is more powerful and not considered an Assault weapon under the Clinton ban?
There are a whole lot more Joe Schmos playing Mario Andretti in their cars with their beer drinking buddies than playing Rambo with guns.
Those dead guys who have been quoted are the ones who wrote the rules. You keep misstating their intent and Vici is providing you with the information showing what their intent really was. A whole lot of the people responsible for the Constitution and Bill of Rights feared what could happen if the central government was too powerful. The stated rational for allowing gun ownership is a check lest the Federal government slip into tyranny. They originally opposed the formation of a standing army for the same reason.
And as luck would have it you aren't the one who gets to decide what the proper type of firearm us citizens can own. And I didn't say the Mexican Cartels aren't in this country. I said they don't pull out so-called assault weapons and shoot it out with police here.