10 Gallon Sump Saga

[mcmasterson]

Unfortunately i wouldnt be able to add that without tearing down the tank and moving it to access cutting the back.
It looks like the only option is to cut the side and top for the drain and return. However i dont want a larger bulky overflow inside the tank so I may end up just using the lifereef as it has to be more effective at skimming the water than just a sole bulk head without an inside overflow.

 

[acrylic51]

I agree Saxman that is a sick setup!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman http:///forum/thread/381467/eshopps-vs-lifereef-overflow#post_3324749
You could always add the O/F OUTSIDE the tank (I love this arrangement):

 

[acrylic51]

That might be your best option at this point....Using just the bulkhead would work, but as you noted your water surface skimming ability is rather diminished with just the bulkhead....Keep us posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmasterson http:///forum/thread/381467/eshopps-vs-lifereef-overflow/20#post_3324962
Unfortunately i wouldnt be able to add that without tearing down the tank and moving it to access cutting the back.
It looks like the only option is to cut the side and top for the drain and return. However i dont want a larger bulky overflow inside the tank so I may end up just using the lifereef as it has to be more effective at skimming the water than just a sole bulk head without an inside overflow.

 

[mcmasterson]

Well i am going to just plow forward with the lifereef overflow. Now i am onto building the sump itself. I have a standard 20"L x 10"w, 12"H- 10 gallon glass tank, Tunze 9002 skimmer and a Mag 7 return pump. The lifereef overflow is the 600 gph single tube.
I am thinking of doing a skimmer/fug/return set up for ease of plumbing. I was speaking with Jeff from lifereef during my ordering of the overflow and told him what skimmer i had and he recommended to boycott the idea of using baffles and said they are overrated and people over complicate the design of sumps. Me being a newbie took him at his word based on his enormous experience in the business.
However all i read about on here and many other forums is the constant need for the baffles to reduce the micro bubbles. I was reading reviews on the tunze 9002 and it appears this skimmer produces very little to no micro bubbles(cant say first hand yet). So if that is indeed the case, is Jeff accurate in saying just slap in 2 baffles? One between the fug/skimmer and one between the fug/return?
He recommended a 9-9.5 for skimmer/fug and 10" for fug/return.
Also i should have a ball valve in the return line to tone down the powerful mag 7, right? Would i need a ball valve in the drain line into sump too?

 

[saxman]

You don't need a valve on the drain line from the DT, as when you shut the return pump off, the flow from the DT will stop. You will have some backflow into the sump from the lines and some from the DT until the water hits your siphon breaks or dips below your return fitting level. This is normal, and you plan for your sump to absorb this backflow product.
As for a valve on the pump output, Mag 7's aren't that powerful, but I typically add a bleed valve back to the sump. This way, you can run the pump full out, but limit the flow to your DT if needed:

Bafflewise, IMHO even one "under" baffle is usually fine unless you have a real "bubblemaker" someplace upstream in the system.

 

[acrylic51]

Agree with Saxman.... As far as baffles no set rule you have to have baffles. I think most people don't have issues with skimmer bubbles per say, but micro bubbles are usually brought into play with the water entering the sump, and honestly no matter how few micro bubbles you see once the return pump picks them up they will end in the DT. Depending if your flow is to fast through the sump even baffles won't eliminate the bubbles.
What size DT are you setting up again?

 

[acrylic51]

Ok..., sorry about the stupid question earlier, but your DT is 46 gallon. Typically through your sump you'd want between 3-5X turnover.... So 3-5X turnover of your DT is???? 230gph at 5X. Your using a 10 gallon for a sump, and a Mag 7 for return? Return is overkill an IMHO will have micro bubbles through the sump from overflow and no to minimum baffles???? Your sump isn't near big enough to push that through IMO.

 

[mcmasterson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/381467/eshopps-vs-lifereef-overflow/20#post_3325314
Ok..., sorry about the stupid question earlier, but your DT is 46 gallon. Typically through your sump you'd want between 3-5X turnover.... So 3-5X turnover of your DT is???? 230gph at 5X. Your using a 10 gallon for a sump, and a Mag 7 for return? Return is overkill an IMHO will have micro bubbles through the sump from overflow and no to minimum baffles???? Your sump isn't near big enough to push that through IMO.
Shawn can you clarify this statement:
Return is overkill an IMHO will have micro bubbles through the sump from overflow and no to minimum baffles???? Your sump isn't near big enough to push that through IMO.
I take it as you believe the mag 7 is overkill, right? And you say no i shouldnt have baffles, or was that sarcasm? WIth the 600 gph overflow I likely will be seeing some micro bubbles, right? I will have a hair over 4' of pumping height so that will bring down the GPH to 450 or so with the mag 7. With the overflow running 600gph, wouldnt i want a relatively close match in terms of GPH for the return?
So it will be best to have the return line set up like saxman says using a T that will help to cut back on the return if i desire and run excess flow back to sump if i am running that mag 7? If i opted for a smaller return pump? Isnt better to have more than less since one can use a ball valve to reduce return line?

 

[acrylic51]

Sorry no sarcasm intended!!!! My statement about "overkill" was more in regards to the sump. Trying to push 700gph through a 10 gallon would lead IMO to a micro bubble issue. Even with baffles still might not be enough space for the bubbles to rise to the surface and pop. Saxman's technique of "Ting" off might work, but to try and push the entire volume through the sump would be an issue. Even with the supposed headless calculation you are still way over the 3-5x turnover rate through the sump. The issue then becomes not enough flow to keep the overflow running.
Again with turnover calculations of a 46 gallon DT @ 5X turnover your flow rate would be 230gph, at 3X turnover it would be 138gph. The 3-5x suggested turnover rate is suggested as well so your skimmer can efficiently and effectively do it's job as well. So with your figure of 450gph after headless, I think your still at a long shot due to sump size.

 

[mcmasterson]

Thanks for the clarification Shawn. So i guess the guy at lifereef isnt that great! Being a newbie i deferred to his expertise regarding the overflow. He didnt seem to have any issues selling me the overflow fully knowing i was only going to use a 10 gallon sump. I can obviously turn down the return using a ball valve, but the overflow having a 600gph rating might be the main culprit for having too much flow running through the sump.
So the ideal thing would be to T-off the return line with a portion of the return heading back into the sump and a ball valve to further reduce the flow if necessary. Also it might be best to opt for a smaller rated overflow?
However, if my overflow is running 600gph and my return is about 450 or so, wouldnt it somewhat work out since more water is coming in than going out? So more time for bubbles to dissipate?
Jeff from lifereef at first was talking using a mag 9!

 

[2quills]

Have to agree with Shawn here. A 600GPH overflow is made more for tanks in the range of 90-125 Gallons. A 300GPH overflow is much more appropriately sized for a 46G tank. The thing with the overflows is that in order for them to function safely you'll want to have a pump that is pumping close to it's capacity without going over. Pushing more than 5x the amount of water volume of your tank through your sump an hour is pretty much pointless unless your hoping to gain extra flow inside the tank...but that is what power heads are for. Having 450GPH is 10x the turnover rate of your tank and is definitely not necessary. I agree that a Mag 9 would be a better choice for the 600GPH overflow sine you could push it a little bit closer to it's capacity and just run a relief drain like Saxman suggested to adjust the flow accordingly.
If it were my decision to make I'd go with a 300GPH overflow and get a return pump that could push approximately 250-300GPH to my tank.

 

[acrylic51]

If your dead set on using the Mag pump the best alternative I could give would be to back to option 1 and drill the tank with a 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" bulkhead....You won't get max surface skimming, but you could use the pump and not have to worry about the overflow keeping up, because both the bulkheads I mentioned would more than handle the flow from the pump. The issue again goes back to the sump will not IMHO handle that pump being run wide open through the sump. I'm even skeptical if running a "relief" line back into the sump would help, but not 100% sure....I would think it's highly possible if the "relief" line was submerged underwater to prevent it from creating micro bubbles.....Just my .02!!!!!

 

[mcmasterson]

I get where you are coming from, but if i am only pumping roughly 450 gph with the height adjustment on the mag 7 and my overflow is running 600 gph wouldnt my overflow be running plenty of water down to keep up with the 450 gph being pushed up by the mag 7?

 

[acrylic51]

The reliability of the overflow keeping a good siphon; not having large air pockets is my issue. With running 450gph it my be possible to stall the overflow, and the overflow might break siphon and then you overflow the tank. Once the siphon breaks and the overflow fills up doesn't necessarily mean it will pick back up.... That's a gamble!!!!
Again I go back to questioning the size of the sump!!!! I can't see you being able to push 600-700gph through the sump. If you have your 10 gallon tank already mock it up and do some test runs. What is the available space under the stand?

 

[mcmasterson]

The biggest possible aquarium i can fit under the stand has to measure at 27" diagonal. so even a 15 gallon is just about 1/4" too big. I would need a custom tank in order to make it work and with that i would only be able to squeeze another 3-4 gallons at most. Cost vs. benefit isnt worth it.
I guess i am more pissed at that Lifereef guy for saying it should work no problem. He should have told me that a 600gph overflow for a 10 gallon tank is way too much. I think i am going to email him questioning him. I doubt he would just sell me his overflow to make a $100 bucks. That is why i feel he must know this will work out with what he told me to get in terms of the mag 7 and the build of the sump. I mean 28 years must account for something, right? he claims his overflow is guaranteed to not break siphon so he must have faith the set up for me will work

 

[acrylic51]

The lifereef guy might know his know his product, but how familiar is he with build of dumps, and falling water and such????

 

[mcmasterson]

He has been building custom sumps for the last 28 years. From what i have read for reviews of his sumps that they are top notch stuff. That is why i find it hard to question that many years experience. Definitely not questioning you either. Just want to get it done right.
He quoted me this for a custom sump and that included a mag 9 return pump. Was just a little too pricey for me.
Ok, for a complete Lifereef System with sump, skimmer, pumps, I'd recommend the CLF1 at $799.00. This comes with the following:
23 x 13 x 14 Lifereef CLF 1 Berlin System Sump
SVS2-24 Lifereef in-sump skimmer with Mag9 pump, good for aquariums up to 250 gal.
MagDrive 9 return pump
All hoses, clamps, fittings
Or for a custom Lifereef sump to use the Tunze skimmer, again measuring the 23 x 13 x 14: $389.00.

 

[2quills]

I'm not questioning the guys ability to build anything...but in this instance I question his recommendations on a skimmer that size for a 46G tank as well as an overflow that size for a 46G tank. Which Tunze skimmer did he sugguest?

 

[mcmasterson]

He didnt suggest the skimmer, i opted for the Tunze Nano 9002. I believe it to be the smallest Tunze makes and only rated up to 52 gallons. If anything it will only remove up to 80% of the waste matter according to Tunze
He actually recommended going with a larger skimmer as he felt the Tunze would under perform which i am well aware of. However, it is small allowing me a larger refugium and it will perform better than having nothing at all and is at least a starting point for me. Also the reviews are solid for it and from what i read it will not contribute any extra micro bubbles into the sump and is nearly silent.
I planned on ordering additional tubing and items from him so i dont think he would sell me something knowing full well it couldnt work considering i was planning on being a repeat customer.
He after all was recommending and offering to construct that custom sump referenced above with a larger skimmer and the same overflow that i have now all in relatively the same size sump save a couple extra gallons on his custom build

 

[acrylic51]

His recommendation on size of sump build is bigger than the 10 gallon tank you suggested of using..... I still feel pushing 600gph through it is questionable. On his dumps size 23"L maybe, but it's still narrow. You could push tons of flow if the length was there.