10 Gallon Sump Saga

[mcmasterson]

I am hopeful for no bubbles or at least ones that will be accumulating and hanging out waiting to break the siphon. Lifereef has made a guarantee on theirs to no break siphon and claim none have in like 22 years and guarantee theirs will not break siphon or not start up after a power outage.
If for some reason it doesnt hold the siphon I will be back here posting that it didnt and requesting my money back from him!

 

[al&burke]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmasterson http:///forum/thread/381467/eshopps-vs-lifereef-overflow/120#post_3329348
I am hopeful for no bubbles or at least ones that will be accumulating and hanging out waiting to break the siphon. Lifereef has made a guarantee on theirs to no break siphon and claim none have in like 22 years and guarantee theirs will not break siphon or not start up after a power outage.
If for some reason it doesnt hold the siphon I will be back here posting that it didnt and requesting my money back from him!
Sounds good, I don't remember reading if it comes with an aqualifter to prevent a siphon break?

 

[mcmasterson]

No it doesnt. U tube type overflows dont use the aquafilter. They typically arent needed from what i have read prior to purchasing. That is why the consensus that i found on various forums was to avoid those types of overflows as you are inherently relying on a pump which can easily burn out and cause flooding. I did a lot of reading and searching online regarding overflows and pluses and minuses to each. i read quite a few horror stories of people using the CPR and having floods and wasnt able to find a single one that said they had issues with the lifereef overflow.
Seemed that everyone that had a CPR and had a flood had moved to a utube lifereef and said they never looked back. I am hopeful i get the same experience! They cost more, but for me piece of mind is worth it.

 

[meowzer]

I don't see what the difference is with these life reef ones...then any other regular u-tube overflow

I have never had a flood with mine....and if you have your sump set up correctly, and the pump fails....whether it stop from a power outage or whatever.....you should not have a flood anyway

 

[2quills]

You shouldn't have to much of an issue with it. Even with the CPR overflows the reason why alot of people end up having problems is because of user error on not knowing how to properly set one up to help avoid these misshaps. CPR doesn't do a good job of explaining that in their video. I've heard of flood happening from all kinds of overflows so no matter what you'll want to check it regularly. A drilled tank is always going to be much more reliable for you.

 

[mcmasterson]

Meowzer, i didnt see much difference either. However, i literally spent about 10 hours pouring over all sorts of online forums and googling information on the different overflows and the closest U Tube type to the lifereef i read about was the the eshopps overflow found on the bay for about 50% less. I was just about sold on opting for that one until i was reading some reviews of users that said the build quality just isnt as good and they were louder and some saying they accumulated bubbles more often.
Here is just one negative review i read on the eshopps u tube model from someone:
"I have both a LifeReef and an Eshopps one. The LifeReef is better, hands down. The deeper "boxes" mean better flow. In addition I had to modify my Eshopps one because the baffle in the outside box wasn't high enough, and would lose its siphon when the power went out. Whereas my LifeReef one hasn't lost its siphon in the 8+ years that I have had it."
I read reviews of people that have used the CPR, eshopps, and lifereef brands and whenever i came across those reviews, they mentioned lifereefs was hands down the best. I am not partial to any one particular brand either. Wanted the safest, easiest item to use.
Basically it came down to lifereef's is the only one i am aware that offers a guarantee not to flood and have not once read a negative review other than perhaps they are costly. None of the other ones have a guarantee and have read at least one to several negative reviews of them. For the CPR to work efficiently you need the aqua-lifter pump, right? That is just another mechanical device that if it should go haywire while you are away it can cause issues. At least that is what i have read. Above all i am sure a lot of the negative reviews are from operator error and ignorance on how to set up the CPR properly, but i cant imagine it to be rocket science either.
So for me it was an easy decision. I am sure there plenty of excellent operational brands of overflows out there and people go without a flood their entire life
So i guess when i am buying something that involves potentially flooding i opt for the one that offers a guarantee against it. You have to pay for it, but paying for a little piece of mind is worth it IMO

 

[acrylic51]

Any updates? Is it up and running yet?

 

[mcmasterson]

Sorry for the late reply. But yes tonight i finally got it up and running. So far so good. A couple initial issues i have come across.
1. the inner box of the overflow can't be raised quite high enough to allow water level to reach the very top of my tank. This is because my acrylic tank has a semi-sealed top. The only thing i can think of is to cut down the teeth of the overflow box in the areas that are hitting the top of the tank. I can snap a photo to show you what i mean.
2. It has been running for only about 15 minutes, but i do see some micro bubbles in the tank coming from the return. All i have right now is a small 1/2" elbow coming down into the tank for the return. Do you think putting in a piece of PVC into the elbow with a few drilled holes may reduce the bubbles?
They arent abundant, but thought it might be from the initial run. Maybe not. It isnt super bad, but is noticeable.
I have ball valves on the drain line to refugium/skimmer sides as well as on the return. if i cut the flow down a bit on all 3 ball valves i see a good reduction on the micro bubbles. Do you think this will be harmful at all on the return pump having the ball valves cutting the natural flow?

 

[al&burke]

Good news, do you have any LR rubble in the bubble tower.

 

[al&burke]

Oh yes Pictures

 

[acrylic51]

Honestly you shouldn't restrict the flow from the tank to the sump area.... Just a bad idea IMHO. Have you examined; watched your sump in action? I understand it's only been running a short period of time. I would take a flashlight, while everything is running, and see if you have micro bubbles from the skimmer area making it through your bubble traps to the return area. If my memory serves me correctly your running your sump setup with skimmer, fuge then return section correct?? Again watch the sump an see where the bubbles are starting and see if they are making their way to the return pump

 

[mcmasterson]

Al,I do have LR in the bubble tower.
Shawn: I ended up opting for return in the middle per suggestions from here. I now am regretting that and wishing i had put the return in the last section as originally planned. This is because i have micro bubbles and bubbles in general easily getting past the skimmer and down the bubble trap into the return. I also have a small amount of bubbles coming from the refugium. I have the ball valve turned way down to the refugium to slow the flow down. I think if i would have kept the return in the last section those bubbles would have easily dissipated against the LR and macro algae in the refugium before hitting the return.
So besides the micro bubble issue. the sound was quite muted when i had it up and running which was pleasing to me as i am not a fan of noisy equipment. However, this morning after having it run all night, the overflow noise had increased. I know some water had evaporated out so i filled it back up to the starting point and the noise is still in the overflow. So i found that weird considering no other adjustments were made between night and morning. The overflow you can just hear the flushing type sound down the outer box drain. Not super bad, but just another little thing to tackle.
I am at a loss now how to remedy the micro bubbles. Perhaps turning down the flow back to the tank to give time for the bubbles to dissipate in the return section?
Lastly, my tunze 9002 skimmer which i tested in the 10 gallon prior to making the sump worked ok in terms of the bubbles reaching the top of the collection cup with a tiny bit of limited gunk pouring into the collection cup. Granted it was running in fresh clean water so not much for gunk to collect. Now i have it running in the sump and i have plenty of gunk in my tank but i cant get the bubbles to get up and reach the very top of the collection cup to allow pour over into the cup.
I have heard it takes a couple days up to a week or more for the skimmer to start working properly. But it was working right out of the box in my test run and now i cant get it to collect nothing. Hopefully it is just breaking in still... Any advice here?

 

[mcmasterson]

Well it appears that my skimmer is starting to break in now. It isnt yet delivering any gunk into the container but the bubbles are getting more frothy and thicker. I had to turn it down as it was filling up the container fairly quickly of nearly clear water. So that appears to be going better. Now i just hope it starts collecting a lot of bad stuff in the tank considering i havent had a skimmer running since day one.
regarding the micro bubbles. I have my return line turned to roughly 1/2 closed and it has helped reduce the bubbles. I do have the ball valve going to bubble tower from tank turned down just a hair which also is helping reduce the bubbles
I still do have some coming in and picked up some cheap polyfill from walmart tonight. Do you think if i place some of that in between the 2 baffles after my skimmer section that will help reduce the bubbles without affecting the flow too drastically?
I can see the flow coming in from the drain to bubble tower and can see the microbubbles forming there and many are getting caught and floating to the top, but a lot make it down and through the grate at the bottom. I wonder if i had made the grate a little shorter that would have helped. Although then i would have been worried about all the incoming water making it through the reduced opening.
I will take a couple photos tomorrow showing you the set up running. Let me know if you have any ideas to cut the bubbles down. It seems my corals are suffering just a little bit.
I also have removed my emperor 400 now that the sump is running. I no longer have any filter system running on the tank or in sump. Just the skimmer, live rock and refugium which should do enough filtering, right? I added another 5-6 lbs in the refugium/bubble tower so that should help along with the 60-70lbs in the tank. I also expect to maybe fit in some more in the display after i shifted around the rock to accommodate the overflow

 

[acrylic51]

What pump are you using as a return? The poly fill might work, but just remember to keep it clean. Your plumbing lines might need to run a bit and could possibly see a bubble reduction in a few days. Have you thought about a filter sock on the drain line to the bubble tower?

 

[mcmasterson]

I am using a mag 7. Would a filter sock be something i need to change daily? What about the poly fill? I purchased just some basic cheap poly fill from walmart. Is that safe to use?
I need to remedy the MB issue soon as my corals are really starting to suffer.

 

[acrylic51]

It's hard to put an exact change out schedule on the poly fill or filter sock....I opt to change mine out everyday(filter sock).....A lot of things come into play to dictate the cleaning frequency......For giggles, try opening up the drain line from the DT to the bubble tower....now dial the return pump back to 1/2, maybe a tad more and see what your results are. Is the skimmer putting off a lot of micro bubbles? I can't imagine you having very fine micro bubbles entering the bubble tower....I would expect bigger bubbles, that might escape the bubble tower, but not many, and then into the skimmer area. How many baffles again?
Again try turning the return pump back to 1/2 throttle, and open the drain line to the bubble tower completely. Let this run a bit, and slowly closet the ball valve on the pump and tell what happens.....I know you can't close it off completely, because it won't flow back to the tank, but I have a suspicion though!!!!!

 

[mcmasterson]

the return line was already about at half. The drain from DT to bubble was just a hair closed. I just opened it completely now. I can see the large bubbles coming into the bubble tower, but i also see a ton of micro mixed in. It appears after hitting the rock they break up and create smaller bubbles. My skimmer, the Tunze 9002 isnt producing any bubbles at all.
I can see the micros coming through the grate of the bubble tower into the skimmer section.
I currently have two baffles between skimmer/return.
In regards to my polyfill i got. Will that be okay to use just by itself stuffed in the baffle? It seems like it could break apart some.
Lastly, what do you use for and where do you procure a filter sock?
Bubbles definitely decrease when i turn return ball valve down. I have had it turned down quite a bit already but really cranked it down and bubbles are way down. This i because the flow isnt getting pushed into the overflow quite so fast thus reducing the amount of micro's going to bubble tower.
Wont i be hurting my pump keeping it turned down for extended periods of time?

 

[acrylic51]

I the drain line from the DT submerged or dumping water down onto the rubble rock? Now continue to slow the return pum to just a hair more than 1/4 closed

 

[mcmasterson]

I am also seeing quite a few micros coming out of my drain into the refugium. I have that ball valve turned down at least half way. When i open it up all the way i still get the bubbles. turning it down does help to reduce them. but it almost seems i am having quite a few micros on the refugium drain side as the bubble tower. Especially since there is no bubble tower on the refugium side.
Could it be possible that the overflow box itself is creating the bubbles? It is a pretty big overflow box and since i am not pushing a ton of water into it with the return valve turned down, the water level in the inner box is fairly low compared to tank water so the water is falling a about 4-5 inches into the overflow box.

 

[mcmasterson]

It is currently submerged. I already have it over 1/4 closed. It is at about 1/2+ closed. do you mean turn it down leaving it only 1/4 of the way open or 3/4 closed?