All of this over cartoons?

[socal57che]

Dear Hagfish
What the Bible teaches and how Christianity was spread are two very different issues.
Being Christian myself I am ashamed at what has been done in the name of Christianity and God. (see http://www.medievalcrusades.com/)We both know that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God. The differences are prophets and the Messiah. Islam was founded on the belief that God's word was delivered to Muhammed by Gabriel. As a Christian I feel that the only way to the Father is through His son, who existed with His Father, long before He appeared in the New Testament, and was part of the creation of Eden. (I also believe it was Jesus who appeared before Joshua with his sword drawn)
The Jews, on the other hand, are still waiting for Emmanuel (literally). We translate Emmanuel as "God with us" so the actual name of the messiah could have been anything and still fulfilled prophecy.
I don't want to debate Christian views with you because we both essentially believe the same thing. We need to show people to Christ so that they may have the same opportinity to be with the Father.
So..........if everyone would kindly convert at this time so we can get back to water changes, fragging and lighting upgrades .............
he he he

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by socal57che
Dear Hagfish
What the Bible teaches and how Christianity was spread are two very different issues.
Being Christian myself I am ashamed at what has been done in the name of Christianity and God. (see http://www.medievalcrusades.com/)We both know that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God. The differences are prophets and the Messiah. Islam was founded on the belief that God's word was delivered to Muhammed by Gabriel. As a Christian I feel that the only way to the Father is through His son, who existed with His Father, long before He appeared in the New Testament, and was part of the creation of Eden. (I also believe it was Jesus who appeared before Joseph with his sword drawn)
The Jews, on the other hand, are still waiting for Emmanuel (literally). We translate Emmanuel as "God with us" so the actual name of the messiah could have been anything and still fulfilled prophecy.
I don't want to debate Christian views with you because we both essentially believe the same thing. We need to show people to Christ so that they may have the same opportinity to be with the Father.
So..........if everyone would kindly convert at this time so we can get back to water changes, fragging and lighting upgrades .............
he he he
I only needed to read the first sentence of your link to find what I needed to prove my point. The quote is "The year was 1095 CE, William the Conqueror had united England under one crown 30 years earlier." Christianity had been around for 1000 years. So it's principle means of starting up and spreading out were not the crusades. The story of how it started is in the new testament. Many Christians were killed by the Roman empire, but they did not fight back with swords. Christianity did not start in or around the year 1000, but the year 0. Which I'm sure you know, but you are misrepresenting it by acting like the crusades were the principle mean by which it was carried out. And you can shoot yourself in the foot with that line of thinking. But I agree it is a point that can't be ignored. One must understand that people who fight and kill in the name of Jesus are not doing so inline with Christian doctrine as was laid out by Jesus. And as I said before, just because one says they follow Jesus doesn't make it so. And just being religious gets you nothing as well. Many cults fall between those lines. One must be discerning enough to tell the difference.
Is it Joseph Smith you are talking about that you say Jesus appeared to with sword drawn?
Also, the reference to Jesus with sword drawn is not a reference to him fighting with a "human sword". Jesus sword is His tongue, and it is not meant to be literal, but an expression of how Jesus spoke. He does His fighting with words.
Also, as Christians, we are not supposed to believe Jews and Muslims are worshipping the same God. As you yourself pointed out, Jesus is the savior and our God. Essential doctrine for Christianity includes the Trinity and therefore all 3 persons of the Godhead are included in the word "God". Jews don't believe Jesus is the savior, therefore they can't possibly believe in the same God as us. Muslims think that the idea of the Trinity is polytheism and call it the sin of shurek (I probably spelled that wrong). It is an unforgivable sin to say that Jesus is God (and the Holy Spirit) according to Muslims. So how can you say they are worshipping the same God?

 

[socal57che]

Sorry...typo Book of Joshua, post corrected, 5:13.
There is only one God.
The crusades represented Christianity as do the people who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors performing abortions.
Why are you arguing with me?
We should choose battles more wisely than this.
When people see 2 Christians that can't seem to get along what kind of picture does that paint?
Last post.

 

[thomas712]

Originally Posted by Beth
What is interesting about all this is not the Muslims' reaction but the West's reaction! How many times have Christian religious symbols been blasphemed? Yet Christians just had to put up with it because it is "freedom of speech". Now, CNN, and others I'm sure who will chime in and will

just to be fair to these people; most of whom hate our guts and would like to wipe us off the face of the earth.
Good for you Beth, I was just thinking of a very similar response when I saw your posting. My mind immediatly went to the Alabama Judge Roy Moore who was removed from office when he refused to take down the 10 commandments from his court room. He was also sued by the ACLU. If anyone is interested in this story let me know, I'll post it.
Thomas

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by socal57che
Sorry...typo Book of Joshua, post corrected, 5:13.
There is only one God.
The crusades represented Christianity as do the people who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors performing abortions.
Why are you arguing with me?
We should choose battles more wisely than this.
When people see 2 Christians that can't seem to get along what kind of picture does that paint?
Last post.
I am not trying to argue. Just having a discussion. I didn't think we weren't getting along really. It is OK for 2 people to discuss something, I am not aware of anything I said that would have been insulting to you or anything. Please don't take offense.
My viewpoint is iron sharpens iron. You are iron and I am iron. We can learn from each other. No two people are going to agree about everything even when they are sitting next to each other in a church. That doesn't mean those people don't get along. I just like to discuss this stuff.

 

[kuniva]

Do you guys know what they(radical muslims) did back in my home, Indonesia? They started a riot on May 1998, they called for ethnic cleansing, and religion cleasing as well. The government blamed the economy depresion on the Chinese, which mostly are budhist or Christian. They burned down the china town, kill the chinese citizens and raped chinese women and girls so that we would not have a "pure" chinese race in Indonesia. Some girls are raped in front of their father or husband's eyes. Some girls chose to jump from their 3rd floor from their apartment rather than getting raped by these muslim mobs. But they didnt stop there, they burned down temple and churches, and wrote in Arabic on what's left on these buildings. And no, we dont have such thing as Second amendment to protect us. The police bailed on us and let the mob do what they like. And in the end, the government tried to covered it up and denied that the whole thing ever happened since they are afraid of making their muslim citizens mad.
Now, can you guys imagine if you were the girl's father, husband or brother. That's one reason why since i moved over here, I bought and keep my own guns. So if any angry mob of muslim tried to burn my house down or whatsoever, just like The Game in G-Unit would say, I would come out with my two guns blazing

 

[chipmaker]

The B-42 actually was XA-42 and later on near end of war after only building two of them were redisignated the XB-42 as it fit the bomber role better than an Assault aircraft. It never was formally a B or an A and has always had the X designation in front to denote experimental......Its commn name was the mixmaster due to its many (5 of them) propellers it used......it was originally designed as a prop driven aircraft. In later years they modified the first XB-42 by putting jet engine pods on the wingtips and called it the XB-42A..Propeller driven aircraft convcerted to jet have never worked out very well for some reason or other, excpet for the humongous B-36 bomber.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by socal57che
I'm not necessarily trying to stir the pot here, but Christianity was spread by the sword as was Islam.
FWIW, this is the main reason I was even talking about this stuff. It's a single sentence that put Christianity in an absolute reference in a negative connotation. If someone didn't know better, they might think that Christianity was ONLY spread by the sword. I just felt this needed some clarification. And I figured you'd agree that violence wasn't the only means by which Christianity has been spread. And I also wanted to point out that just because a lunatic says they are a Christian just doesn't make it so.
Kinda like when you go the the LFS as a newbie and ask the person working what fish you can keep in a 29 gallon tank. They tell you to buy a tang, a trigger and all kinds of stuff all of which are wrong. That is that persons "gospel" on fish keeping (at least what they represent to the customer). But most reef keepers would not agree with that "gospel" and call that person a liar or fraud.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by fatcats
Free of speech and prees only go so far if we start attacking their religon like that we are no better then the racist bigots of the 60's who used the N word. Would you like it if they printied picture of Jesus with a gun killing people? And remember you cant hate people because of their nationalites. You hate or love ppl because of their personalites.
Wasn't there a painting a while back of Jesus in a jar of urine or something like that, that made national news and won awards and such...yet the Christians didn't riot and kill and freedom of speec was still exercised.
So it has been done in this country as well. With no reprecussions.

 

[mudplayerx]

All religions were spread by the sword in one way or another. However, all major religions that I know of have adopted peace and goodwill towards mankind as the central focus of their doctrine.... all except for Islam. Islam condones and encourages violence even in the most basic passages of their religious texts. Some muslim communities in the world will execute you just for saying the world is round, because the Koran says otherwise.
Yes, perhaps all religions were spread by the sword. However, if we turn a blind eye on the fact that even moderate muslims preach that non-muslims are to be shunned and ridiculed peacefully.... this does not erase the fact that Islam has been taken over by evil men, and it is at a point and severity now where it will never recover. The religion is corrupt and evil.
No amount of negotiation or acceptance will save us from fanatical muslims. Peace will not save us. Only eradication and submission of the radical islamists will stop the infection.

 

[beth]

The West better wake up and smell the roses. Or the stink weeds, as the shoe fits. I do not advocate hate, but civilized people better get out of their fairy tale mentality and realize that we are going to be in big trouble in a few yrs if we don't start dealing with these radicals now. If you don't believe me, take these riots over a cartoon, as a for instance. Those rioting are not AlQueda....they are your average Muslim. Europe better decide which side of the fence they want to be on, or get used to praying to Allah!
Lets start with Iran, shall we?

 

[1journeyman]

I think the current European mood against Iran has a lot to do with the behavior of muslims in Europe.
France had 2 weeks of rioting not too long ago perpetuated by muslims. Add that to the behavior of folks over these cartoons.
Now Iran has a President who claims the holocaust didn't occur, and publicing stating that Israel shouldn't exist.
I think the USA is going to look better and better the longer the Iranian pres opens his mouth.

 

[happyvac]

I do, however, believe that where these radicals are located has a definite effect.
I know dozens of Muslims and all are peaceful about there religion....the fact that these fanatics are located in a place with thousands of the same probably intensifies their hatred a great many times over.

 

[mudplayerx]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I think the current European mood against Iran has a lot to do with the behavior of muslims in Europe.
France had 2 weeks of rioting not too long ago perpetuated by muslims. Add that to the behavior of folks over these cartoons.
Now Iran has a President who claims the holocaust didn't occur, and publicing stating that Israel shouldn't exist.
I think the USA is going to look better and better the longer the Iranian pres opens his mouth.
The Iranian "president" is probably the biggest luny in the world right now other than 'lil Kim in N. Korea.

 

[beth]

Why would the Iranian president impress Europeans, when Saddam did not? Saddam gleefully encouraged families to give up their children to suicide bombing Israel and paid $25,000 to each family. Isn't this the same, maybe worse, then comments by the Iranian president? Besides, don't think there is any love lost for Israelis by Europeans.

 

[1journeyman]

true Beth, BUT... The Iranian Pres. is a Muslim fanatic. He has the capacity to call to arms extremists located throughout Europe that Saddam didn't.
The Europeans don't like Israel, but they understand the importance of a stable Middle East.

 

[darth tang]

I am pondering, why now? I mean these cartoons were published back in Sept. but now they riot? Something is up..............just wish I knew what.

 

[ifart]

inflaming talking texts solve nothing

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
I am pondering, why now? I mean these cartoons were published back in Sept. but now they riot? Something is up..............just wish I knew what.
True

 

[petieaztec]

Originally Posted by Michelle L
I completely agree with you, Beth, and with the others here who state that the Muslim religion is one based on hatred and violence.
Tolerance is definatley NOT somthing they teach and think that anyone who doesn't believe like them should be doomed. I know a couple muslims in CA and they are not extremests but the ones who feel that they must have this holy war to wipe out the western world are a product of their environment and if you hate our country so much then you should go to a place where the belief is like your own. I recently ran into a guy who was listening to music of the middle east i don't know what language, but he started to laugh at me and asked me if i knew what the man was singing about. i said no and he said he is talking about you. I know a person in law enforcement and warned him of this man. I feel that the reason we all live here is because of the freedom to persue happiness and if someone gets in the way of that then he/she does not belong in our society.