Am I a member of the "Tang Police"?

1boatnut

Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2477773
Online livestock seller?? What do you think they're going to say? Rationale behind that is more people have less than 125 gallon tanks. And Momma needs to make the car payment.


And this site has a minium 40 gal for a Hippo Tang...hmmmmmm
 

muggiwhplar

Member
Originally Posted by coachKLM
http:///forum/post/2478080
O.K. you both have separate agendas in the thread so I may have been confused
sly- you wanted to dispute the attitude towards new people with tangs/vs tank size (I agree w/ you to an extent) whereas
mugg - you just want specifics that are not available.
mugg you want statistics and evidence to the extent of how everything that involves aquariums that we keep can and will harm the Tang. This is to include feeding habits,territory, water quality, other inhabitants that effect the Tangs (damsels).
as tangs are multiple and everywhere we can not test the water they are directly in and come from, compare it directly with ours and then do a comparative analysis on the effects of the change.
But we are seeing the effects of the difference by the number of diseases we see in our aquariums (show me a picture of a tang in the wild with HLLE)

man where's everyone ? figured someone would jump in here...lol
Actually I'm much more in Sly's camp than anything else. If you read all my posts in this thread, you'll see that my main issue is the certainty with which the tang police make claims, despite the fact that they lack the kind of evidence I was talking about. As I've said repeatedly, it's all anecdotal and generally fails to give serious consideration to a plethora of other factors. There just seem to be too many unknowns for anybody to be justified in holding a hard stance on either side.
A relatively simple experiment that someone could run would be to take two small tangs, and put one in a 125, and the other in a 75. Plumb the tanks to the same sump/fuge so that they have identical water quality. Try to make the aquascaping similar in both tanks, with similar ratios of live rock weight to tank volume, and don't keep any other fish in the tanks. Keep them on identical diets, and track their growth, disease incidence, and behavior patterns. This would minimize the effects of most other factors and give a much clearer idea of how the tank length itself affects the tang's health. Of course, you would need numerous trials to establish a reliable trend, but you get the idea. I also realize that nobody is actually going to do this. I just want to point out that it wouldn't be terribly difficult to get some hard data on this topic.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Alot of opinion on here is not acticdotal, but experience based. For instance, I've seen more than one friends tank crash because he had big fish in small tanks. Tangs in 55 gallon tanks and whatnot. The thing you have to remember is that for the most part people are just looking out for the fish. But that being said Personally these "rules of thumb" like 1 gallon per inch of fish, or tangs in a 6 foot tank, or manderines with 100 pounds of lr, are a bit silly, and debatable. Am I wrong for having a 5 foot tank and a sailfin, (180 gallon tank) Personally I don't think so. A manderin can starve in a tank with 100 lbs of live rock. What really bugs me are people who just repeat what they hear without having learned it themselves either by research or experience. Every system is unique having a plethora of factors.
As for the "upgrade" I have no problem with "growout tanks" but alot of times, if not most of the time these oh I have a 2 inch blue hippo in a 29 gallon but I'm going to upgrade soon. Is just talk, and talk is cheap. Most people aren't going to invest the 3 or 4 grand for the 150 gallon or so tank that is needed to house 1 fish. half the time ethey are just kids why have big plans but no money. So that is why you'll see people shut these upgrade tang people down.
 

muggiwhplar

Member
Originally Posted by ccampbell57
http:///forum/post/2478121
Coach - we are worn out from doing this in the Aggressive forum.
It is like talking to a wall on this issue. People will always have their agendas and no one will be able to de-rail them. Look at the people that bomb the abortion clinics because they are pro-life, but kill people in the process.
Like talking to a wall? I'd say it's more like pushing on a door that says "pull". I'm open to your opinions and more than willing to listen to your evidence. The problem is that you seem to expect anecdotal evidence to be given the kind of respect that should be reserved for rigorous scientific studies. My agenda here is not to convince anybody that it's fine to keep tangs in small tanks. My agenda is to get the "tang police" to tone down their rhetoric until they actually have hard evidence to back up their claims.
 

coachklm

Active Member
just so we an open the door we "tang police" defined as - those with moral and ethical objections concerning fish in the surgeonfish family being housed in tanks that are substandard in the life of the fish.
we(those that read this) will now say that surgeonfish will be more adept to survive in a larger tank
WE can both agree on that
 

granny

Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2477544
I have been snorkeling and diving here in Florida since I was 10 years old. That's 34 years, 2000+ dives. I can tell you for a fact that tangs are ALLWAYS on the move.
I have collected hundreds of critters over the years for my many tanks. Tangs are by far the hardest to catch. Angels being one of the easiest of the open swimmers to catch. There is no comparison between the swimming needs of Tangs and any other fish in our tanks.
I have kept both tangs and wrasses over the years and comparatively, I would say the wrasses are the most active. They are in constant motion back and forth across the tank until the lights go off. Many of the tangs will find a spot and swim in and out and around that location rather that back and forth, up and down.
 

slycoolman

Member
Would like to add to Granny's post, planktonivorous triggers can also keep pace with a tang, but I don't see people recommending only six foot tanks for a bluethroat.
TBH I've had a discussion on a forum where the tang police are the minority. We even starting debating it after a while but we had to call a truce as neither side could convince each other of anything, and the arguments got too heated. Nowadays when responding to a post we briefly mention both points of view and it has worked very well for six months so far.
CoachKLM, yes we can all agree to that I would think.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by SlyCoolman
http:///forum/post/2478248
Would like to add to Granny's post, planktonivorous triggers can also keep pace with a tang, but I don't see people recommending only six foot tanks for a bluethroat.
TBH I've had a discussion on a forum where the tang police are the minority. We even starting debating it after a while but we had to call a truce as neither side could convince each other of anything, and the arguments got too heated. Nowadays when responding to a post we briefly mention both points of view and it has worked very well for six months so far.
CoachKLM, yes we can all agree to that I would think.

On the contrary, I do say big tanks, 150 -200 gallon tanks at least for triggers.
 

1boatnut

Member

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2478177
As for the "upgrade" I have no problem with "growout tanks" but alot of times, if not most of the time these oh I have a 2 inch blue hippo in a 29 gallon but I'm going to upgrade soon. Is just talk, and talk is cheap. Most people aren't going to invest the 3 or 4 grand for the 150 gallon or so tank that is needed to house 1 fish. half the time ethey are just kids why have big plans but no money. So that is why you'll see people shut these upgrade tang people down.

I'm sure glad I don't shop where you do. I paid NO where near 3-4 thousand for my 125.
P.S...I must be in the other 1/2..I'm no kid ,and as stated I have several different size tanks,but I assume a year ago everyone
would have had the right to "shut these upgrade tang people down" since they all knew my true intentions

Of course shutting these "talk is cheap"people down is something that will definately help the hobby grow, by only keeping the money where your mouth is people involved.
 

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/2478349
I'm sure glad I don't shop where you do. I paid NO where near 3-4 thousand for my 125.
P.S...I must be in the other 1/2..I'm no kid ,and as stated I have several different size tanks,but I assume a year ago everyone
would have had the right to "shut these upgrade tang people down" since they all knew my true intentions

Of course shutting these "talk is cheap"people down is something that will definately help the hobby grow, by only keeping the money where your mouth is people involved.

Oh I built most of my stuff and bought used. I'm working on the assumption that these people who are willing to drop a fish in a 30 gallon tank, aren't going to have the patience to set up a good diy system and would go buy some canned system. Most FO 150-200 gallon systems I see run about 2 grand if not more. Then add in live rock, some reef equiptment you can easily get 4 grand not counting corals ect.
 

sh2000

Member
You can't DIY and create corals...If you have 40 corals in your DT,that itself can cost 2K for ordinary common corals..(lps)
 

noah's nemo

Member
Its alittlte something i like to call Christmas in April,.........tax return
,and an understanding wife
..Can you say upgrade!
 

1boatnut

Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2478521
I'm working on the assumption that these people who are willing to drop a fish in a 30 gallon tank, aren't going to have the patience to set up a good diy system and would go buy some canned system.

I guess my point is we shouldn't assume anything,because I was one of those people.
This is for my Discus,that needed a little more elbow room

I used to get hammered by the Discus Police

I bought the tank used($150.00 with lights and tops) and built the stand.
 

noah's nemo

Member
Nice craftsmanship on the stand.I don't doubt people who talk about upgrading,they could just lie in the first place.People come here to get help,and info not bashed.
 

m0nk

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/2478118
I find one of the biggest problems here is nobody wants to accept that many of us will grow in this hobby.People jump all over Tangs being kept in 75 gal tanks,even after some state they are up-grading. A 2" Tang in a 55 gal is fine for a period,but most here wont accept that. I have a Tang that has NO WAY doubled in size in the last 7 months.
I can make a blanket statement that no Tangs should be kept in a tank less than 7',and then argue with nothing more than me saying my fish was in a 6' and is now much happier in the 7'.
The truth be told,certain Tangs should be left where mother nature put them,but we as humans will always find a way to rationalize ways for us to keep them.
There is definitely a point in there that many of the anti-tang-police brigade uses, where if we say a 6' tank should be a minimum, what's to say we shouldn't be recommending a 7' tank. To that I would definitely counter that "bigger is always better", especially for the more sensitive ones (like the Achilles) where water quality is a big factor into their survival.
Now, I've noted several times on threads that a tang in a 55g will work for up to a year if that tang is a juvenile. In fact, IMO, it's probably better for the tang if it's in a tank where it's not pacing half the tank to try and fight for food, especially if it's staking out territory on the other side of a 6' tank from the veggie clip. I do, however, think that often times people get something in a small tank rationalizing that they're going to upgrade and then never do. I am, my hippo lived in a 55g for 7 months and will be going into a 180 as soon as it's done cycling, but it's taken a lot of work/time/money to get to this point and I had often considered giving up the upgrade. The driving force, however, is the well-being of my fish and the fact that I personally want to keep more tangs that I know won't live in my 55g.
With my hippo I've seen it all; ich twice (still in treatment for the second bout), HLLE brought on by stress of that treatment, which then didn't heal because of living in the 55g with 2 clowns that are bigger than she is, and even at 1.5" she still paces back and forth seemingly looking for more room to swim. She'll often swim into the powerhead stream just to get a good work-out. Many times, you'll hear, juvenile tangs will not survive this long and with this much trouble. I'm lucky that somehow she is still alive (or perhaps is the time I've devoted to making sure that she stays that way), but there are many factors that play into the mortality rate of juvenile tangs. Several arguments here have been that there are multiple factors in keeping these fish healthy in a smaller environment, but the flip side is that there are several factors that could be implicated in their demise as well... especially when starting with a juvenile.
So more to the general issue; I emailed Bob Fenner because there were some interesting notations to the tank size issue on the website he posts on usually. The Acanthurus, Ctenochaetus, and Zebrasoma families all note a guideline size starting at 50 gallons so I asked if this was outdated and if there was anything more current he could offer to help the debate. He believes that some of the Acanthurus, and most of the Ctenochaetus and Zebrasoma will do fine in a 50g volume tank that is not crowded, has good maintenance, and adequate nutrition. However many Acanthurus tangs will grow to be rather large and cannot be kept in this environment. Conversely, anything in the Naso and Prionurus families needs hundreds of gallons (which in my mind translates to at least 200+ gallons). Paracanthurus (blue hippo) should be in something 75g or larger. Also, I did ask for any data that could relate to the issue and he noted that most data on the subject are from much, much larger systems (I'm assuming he meant public aquariums where reef tanks are in the thousands of gallons range) and that most of the information that points to the 6' "rule" is more or less anecdotal.
There is also something very enlightening in his book "The Contentious Marine Aquarist" that I re-read last night in the Tangs section: tangs need a high level of dissolved oxygen otherwise they will be stressed. I'm personally taking this to mean that if you keep glass tops on your tank, or have low gas exchange for any reason, this could be a source of stress for tangs. There were a few other points that I would like to quote but I didn't get a chance to post last night, and I left the book at home when I came to work... so I'll post them later.
At any rate, I'm trying to find more data to support one side or the other, but as muggiwhplar noted, there is likely a general lack of real studies into the subject since this is a hobby. I'll also post back once I get info from my LFS's MBs on their tank size recommendations.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/2478688
I guess my point is we shouldn't assume anything,because I was one of those people.
This is for my Discus,that needed a little more elbow room

I used to get hammered by the Discus Police

I bought the tank used($150.00 with lights and tops) and built the stand.
Oh don't get me wrong, I know some do upgrade. I'm pretty sure most don't, because they either don't have the funds, or weren't that into the hobby anyways.
 

1boatnut

Member
mOnk,
I applaud your dilligence.
I would however like to comment on a few comments/points.
Originally Posted by mOnk:2477100
There is definitely a point in there that many of the anti-tang-police brigade uses, where if we say a 6' tank should be a minimum, what's to say we shouldn't be recommending a 7' tank. To that I would definitely counter that "bigger is always better", especially for the more sensitive ones (like the Achilles) where water quality is a big factor into their survival.
I can't agree with your counter because I think we all agree this to be true. In certain instances bigger will always be better,but that is just a blanket statement. Like I said I could just counter with 8' is better than 6' and so on and so on. This does not solidify the info being passed down.
It also looks like Fenner thinks a Hippo can survive in a 75 gal or larger.
Also in the point of the anti-tang police brigade,this site along with many others states a Blue Hippo can be in anything from a 40 gal to a 75 gal on up. Why should they believe the Tang Police,when many use sites just like this to aid them in their purchases?
Also this leaves me a little perplexed :You state"
Now, I've noted several times on threads that a tang in a 55g will work for up to a year if that tang is a juvenile. In fact, IMO, it's probably better for the tang if it's in a tank where it's not pacing half the tank to try and fight for food, especially if it's staking out territory on the other side of a 6' tank from the veggie clip. I do, however, think that often times people get something in a small tank rationalizing that they're going to upgrade and then never do. I am, my hippo lived in a 55g for 7 months and will be going into a 180 as soon as it's done cycling, but it's taken a lot of work/time/money to get to this point and I had often considered giving up the upgrade. The driving force, however, is the well-being of my fish and the fact that I personally want to keep more tangs that I know won't live in my 55g.
Yet here is quite the opposite:
Originally Posted by m0nk

http:///forum/post/2477100
I'm one of those that believe a tang doesn't belong in a 75g, no matter what type it is. Does that make me a member of the tang police?
Anyway, it already sounds like you're looking for someone to say that it's ok for you to have tangs in there so you can rationalize keeping them. 90% of the answers you'll get will be that they don't belong in there and the other 10% will be people who try the same thing and want to rationalize their own misguided decisions.
mOnk,I certainly don't want it to look like I'm targeting you,but this is all part of a debate,that in my opinion will never really be settled,and just stuff that has recently been posted.
I have probably made most mistakes you can in this hobby,and I am sure I will make more. Hopefully I learned from these mistakes,and if needed I can aid someone ,with the experiences I have dealt with.But I will never FORCE or BERATE people to see things only my way.
I will however say the boards/forums CAN be brutal.
When I 1st started and would post questions in hoping for guidance, I would get all sort of replys like "if your not going to properly take care of your fish,GET OUT OF THE HOBBY" All of the fish in question are still in my original tank.
I once got banned/time out
for 1 week on a forum where I requested that I would like to have some information /references on something they posted. They went on and on defending their position,but never solidified their information.Then the moderator gave me a time out stating I had no right asking for such information. This pretty much told me they were clueless.
I believe much of the information passed down in forums in NOT 1st hand,does not come from experience,and is just stuff that was read bye someone else with no true experience,or those who just like to hear themself talk and show how smart they are.
I am NOT saying ALL information is that way,but much is.
My personnel way of getting something useful from the forums is to only accept advice from those who have experience with my question,and disregard all those who post and dont,and even after that I then go out and try to get as much info as posssible.
mOnk, again thanks for taking the time to try and get some sort of factual information.
Your inital post had me wanting to start a thread with RUDE replys,but that would be a true bloodbath. I really can't believe some of the things people have said to others,and truly believe they have the right to do so. Sometimes Freedom Of Speech can be a cruel thing
 
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