BIO wheel!?
- Thread starter brewski4u1
- Start date
aztec reef
Active Member
Absolutely, I love this type of discussions cuz you get the different views from different Reefers. I never try to contradict anybody or go against any members views. I think that everybody gains from this type of disscusions. Even scientists don't agree all the time. That's what we're all here for to discuss..I remenber when i first started i used to vacumm the sandbed as if it was CC..But hey you Live, Learn & share and everybody is entitle to their own view. That's what the beauty of all of this is
wilsonreef
Member
Michael...is that you again?
aztec reef
Active Member
Originally Posted by wilsonreef
Michael...is that you again?
I call'em how i read them..
Michael...is that you again?
ophiura
Active Member
The problem is that when anyone says "yeah, get rid of the biowheel" as a GENERAL statement it can be very bad. In particular tanks, under particular circumstances, it may be redundant to keep the biowheel. In other cases it may be the primary biological filtration. It is a mistake to tell someone to remove it without knowing more about their system.
In a new tank, I see no reason not to use it, especially while stocking. I would rather have a nitrate problem...
In a new tank, I see no reason not to use it, especially while stocking. I would rather have a nitrate problem...
aztec reef
Active Member
Agree, but the problem is that your not getting anything "special" from the biowheel. Can you name one thing that you can't get without it?
If we say Offgasing or the growth of beneficial algea, Wouldn't that make it "dependant"?
If Not, then does that mean if a tank that has a biowheel for a Primary filtration (regardless of age of tank ) If you suddenly remove this biowheel Nothing would happend?
IMO that rule stands for any set-up..
So why suggest someone to keep something that will require more Maintanance?
did you know that you're not suppost to replace the biowheels "Ever"
So can you see a Nitrate Fact...?
If we say Offgasing or the growth of beneficial algea, Wouldn't that make it "dependant"?
If Not, then does that mean if a tank that has a biowheel for a Primary filtration (regardless of age of tank ) If you suddenly remove this biowheel Nothing would happend?
IMO that rule stands for any set-up..
So why suggest someone to keep something that will require more Maintanance?
did you know that you're not suppost to replace the biowheels "Ever"
So can you see a Nitrate Fact...?
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Agree, but the problem is that your not getting anything "special" from the biowheel. Can you name one thing that you can't get without it?
Off gassing in signifigant amounts.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
If we say Offgasing or the growth of beneficial algea, Wouldn't that make it "dependant"?
not nescessarily, its like saying take your skimmer off your system is going to become dependant on skimming. Because your filtration if good enough should be able to handle the waste. its just a bonus that the High air contact ration can off gass amonia and not leave it in the system to break down, wich is similar to one of the primary functions of a protien skimmer, to remove protiens before they break down into ammonia, some are going to break down anyway so we might as well get rid of them. if your going to discourage biowheels we should be discouraging skimming as well, because your saying its superflous to try and get rid of the stuff instead of breaking it down in tank.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
If Not, then does that mean if a tank that has a biowheel for a Primary filtration (regardless of age of tank ) If you suddenly remove this biowheel Nothing would happend?
of course if its primary filtration something is going to happen no one has stated other wise, if you have a bare tank and nothing but a biowheel and some fish removing the biowheel is going to be disasterous, but if you have a properly set up tank and the biowheel stops spinning due to negligence, or malfunction (they do stay wet when this happens unless they spray bar breaks) any impact is going to be no worse than your skimmer stopping untill you can fix it. IMO a skimmer can remove far more protien than a biowheel can break down, so a skimmer stopping would be far more disasterous. which to my knowledge has never initiated a full on cycle/spike.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
So why suggest someone to keep something that will require more Maintanance?...?
why would you tell some one to use a skimmer thats going to require more maintinence? because its benificial and easy to clean. swish it in change water for 5 seconds and presto clean (sometimes its a little longer if you let it go)
Originally Posted by Aztec Reefg>
did you know that you're not suppost to replace the biowheels "Ever"
So can you see a Nitrate Fact...?
you dont have to replace them. occasionally the rubber bushings on the ends wear out and need to be replaced but I have never seen a biowheel need to be replaced unless the owner tears it or squishes it. Name one peice of aquarium equipment that has never malfunctioned. you dont have to replace LR either the biological function doesnt wear out, even if everything dies off on it the bacteria can recolonize, just like base rock.
And yes I definatly see nitrate as being the end product. but again its liike saying throw out your shallow sand bed the aerobic end product is only nitrate. and yet shallow sand beds are run successfully all the time.
Different set ups can gain from having BIowheels as an part of the system, an overall blanket statement saying they are bad just isnt true. In a lot of aquariums there is no anaerobic environment for break down (some on LR but if a piece isnt larger than fist size this amount of anaerobic availability is suprisingly negligable) of nitrate so they key in those systems is is to break everything down to trates and remove it through water changes. It seems the basis for saying they are bad for the majority is, "in a perfectly set up aquarium they a redundant", thats true for a perfect system. but so is having two heaters and yet we reccomend having them just in case. and lets remember most tanks arent perfectly set up especially in the beggining, or for begginners. I feel its safer to have too much filtration than not enough.
Agree, but the problem is that your not getting anything "special" from the biowheel. Can you name one thing that you can't get without it?
Off gassing in signifigant amounts.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
If we say Offgasing or the growth of beneficial algea, Wouldn't that make it "dependant"?
not nescessarily, its like saying take your skimmer off your system is going to become dependant on skimming. Because your filtration if good enough should be able to handle the waste. its just a bonus that the High air contact ration can off gass amonia and not leave it in the system to break down, wich is similar to one of the primary functions of a protien skimmer, to remove protiens before they break down into ammonia, some are going to break down anyway so we might as well get rid of them. if your going to discourage biowheels we should be discouraging skimming as well, because your saying its superflous to try and get rid of the stuff instead of breaking it down in tank.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
If Not, then does that mean if a tank that has a biowheel for a Primary filtration (regardless of age of tank ) If you suddenly remove this biowheel Nothing would happend?
of course if its primary filtration something is going to happen no one has stated other wise, if you have a bare tank and nothing but a biowheel and some fish removing the biowheel is going to be disasterous, but if you have a properly set up tank and the biowheel stops spinning due to negligence, or malfunction (they do stay wet when this happens unless they spray bar breaks) any impact is going to be no worse than your skimmer stopping untill you can fix it. IMO a skimmer can remove far more protien than a biowheel can break down, so a skimmer stopping would be far more disasterous. which to my knowledge has never initiated a full on cycle/spike.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
So why suggest someone to keep something that will require more Maintanance?...?
why would you tell some one to use a skimmer thats going to require more maintinence? because its benificial and easy to clean. swish it in change water for 5 seconds and presto clean (sometimes its a little longer if you let it go)
Originally Posted by Aztec Reefg>
did you know that you're not suppost to replace the biowheels "Ever"
So can you see a Nitrate Fact...?
you dont have to replace them. occasionally the rubber bushings on the ends wear out and need to be replaced but I have never seen a biowheel need to be replaced unless the owner tears it or squishes it. Name one peice of aquarium equipment that has never malfunctioned. you dont have to replace LR either the biological function doesnt wear out, even if everything dies off on it the bacteria can recolonize, just like base rock.
And yes I definatly see nitrate as being the end product. but again its liike saying throw out your shallow sand bed the aerobic end product is only nitrate. and yet shallow sand beds are run successfully all the time.
Different set ups can gain from having BIowheels as an part of the system, an overall blanket statement saying they are bad just isnt true. In a lot of aquariums there is no anaerobic environment for break down (some on LR but if a piece isnt larger than fist size this amount of anaerobic availability is suprisingly negligable) of nitrate so they key in those systems is is to break everything down to trates and remove it through water changes. It seems the basis for saying they are bad for the majority is, "in a perfectly set up aquarium they a redundant", thats true for a perfect system. but so is having two heaters and yet we reccomend having them just in case. and lets remember most tanks arent perfectly set up especially in the beggining, or for begginners. I feel its safer to have too much filtration than not enough.
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by MichaelTX
absolutely this is the core reason for this site and many others like to bad some people dont remember that LOL
I remember when the best thing for SW tanks was CC and a hang on filter and an air stone or atleast thats what the LFS was saying
Mike
Some still say that....
absolutely this is the core reason for this site and many others like to bad some people dont remember that LOL
I remember when the best thing for SW tanks was CC and a hang on filter and an air stone or atleast thats what the LFS was saying
Mike
Some still say that....
brewski4u1
Member
thanks a million
-ryan
reefkprz
Active Member
IMO there is no reason to stop. if you do stop using it you may see an increase in nitrate because your losing the offgassing effect. In smaller tanks like yours I would say its even more important to keep it because of how hard it is to keep small systems stable and every little bit of filtration helps.
imurnamine
Active Member
Well, I for one, have had Bio-Wheels on my 29 and my 72. I have never had nitrate/nitrite problems. I think that if you do your water changes like you should, it'll work just fine.
Bio-Wheels... some people love them, some hate them. It just depends! ^.^
Bio-Wheels... some people love them, some hate them. It just depends! ^.^
reefkprz
Active Member
OH one more thought on biowheels. if you have LR and sand and a biowheel, bacteria is going to colonize it all, depending on surface area is the amount of bacteria on each piece, the bacteria is going to colonize evenly, its not going to refuse to grow anywhere else just because there is a bio wheel. so a biowheels biological reduction in case of removal is only equal to its surface area. so if you removed a rock with equal aerobic surface area, you actuall get more damage to your system by also removing anaerobic area as well.
in my system I am constantly adding and removing rock sometimes as show rocks get finished and sell I can remove up to 40lbs in one shot. you know thats a signifigant amount all at once when its almost 1/4 to 1/3 of the total rock weight, and it hasnt caused ammonia spikes or new cycles. (in my older smaller tanks some times one show rock would be 1/2 total rock volume) sometimes I would see a rise in trates but never once a huge ammonia spike.
If you want to see what I mean by show rock I can seperate it out in my tank so it stands alone and take a picture, but basicly its one huge rock with a dozen or more corals on it and once its pretty much smothered in corals I sell it to people who dont want to wait to have one impressive rock in their tank. the one I have now is far from finished. it takes about a year or more to create and finish a show rock.
in my system I am constantly adding and removing rock sometimes as show rocks get finished and sell I can remove up to 40lbs in one shot. you know thats a signifigant amount all at once when its almost 1/4 to 1/3 of the total rock weight, and it hasnt caused ammonia spikes or new cycles. (in my older smaller tanks some times one show rock would be 1/2 total rock volume) sometimes I would see a rise in trates but never once a huge ammonia spike.
If you want to see what I mean by show rock I can seperate it out in my tank so it stands alone and take a picture, but basicly its one huge rock with a dozen or more corals on it and once its pretty much smothered in corals I sell it to people who dont want to wait to have one impressive rock in their tank. the one I have now is far from finished. it takes about a year or more to create and finish a show rock.
aztec reef
Active Member
ReefkprZ, I think your giving the Bio-wheel too much credit...and that would make it dependant. We cannot compare a skimmer with the biowheel.
The biowheel is not an unit by it self(like a skimmer), you have to have a filter to run it..
I still run my emperor 400 which is the father of biowheels. But i don't have my biowheel in it cause a have a skimmer, 5" dsb,run carbon monthly, do weekly water changes.. why should i run my biowheel?
The difference here is that you remove the waist by throwing the Gunk out the collection cup..
IMO the biowheel is worth a piece of live rock(baseball size). with some bad stuff in it..
The biowheel keeps running and collecting, running and collecting. Even though it has tons of bacteria, that bacteria isn't that good, its waste,Ammonia and other crap. It just keeps trickiling back to the tank.
So if you have one of this items in your tank :Liverock, carbon filter,sandbed,skimmer,or do regular water changes. IMO you don't needed..
Biowheel=offgassing in massive amounts: Woudn't you get the same effect if you take the Biowheel out, since you're left with the spray bar and cascade effect except without the Nitrates..
IMO this biowheels are more intended for Freshwater Aquariums..
The biowheel is not an unit by it self(like a skimmer), you have to have a filter to run it..
I still run my emperor 400 which is the father of biowheels. But i don't have my biowheel in it cause a have a skimmer, 5" dsb,run carbon monthly, do weekly water changes.. why should i run my biowheel?
The difference here is that you remove the waist by throwing the Gunk out the collection cup..
IMO the biowheel is worth a piece of live rock(baseball size). with some bad stuff in it..
The biowheel keeps running and collecting, running and collecting. Even though it has tons of bacteria, that bacteria isn't that good, its waste,Ammonia and other crap. It just keeps trickiling back to the tank.
So if you have one of this items in your tank :Liverock, carbon filter,sandbed,skimmer,or do regular water changes. IMO you don't needed..
Biowheel=offgassing in massive amounts: Woudn't you get the same effect if you take the Biowheel out, since you're left with the spray bar and cascade effect except without the Nitrates..
IMO this biowheels are more intended for Freshwater Aquariums..
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
ReefkprZ, I think your giving the Bio-wheel too much credit...and that would make it dependant. We cannot compare a skimmer with the biowheel.
of course we can they both can remove a by product from our tanks. leaving ammonia in is no different from leaving protien in to break down into ammonia. If anything we can say a skimmer is worse because it also removes lots of benificial stuff like calcium (as well as other elements) and micro orginisms that get trapped and removed with the skimmer waste. bio wheels dont remove calcium or microcritters.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The biowheel is not an unit by it self(like a skimmer), you have to have a filter to run it....
mostly true but if you have the filter why would you make it less effective by removing a part of it? you can buy add ons if you desired that you can run on a powerhead, they dont have to be on a filter.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
I still run my emperor 400 which is the father of biowheels. But i don't have my biowheel in it cause a have a skimmer, 5" dsb,run carbon monthly, do weekly water changes.. why should i run my biowheel?....
because its more filtration. IMO more filtration is better than less.n its like having one more chunk of live rock, why not?
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The difference here is that you remove the waist by throwing the Gunk out the collection cup..
thats right you have to take the time to pysically remove the cuyp dump it wash it reinstall it every week, a bio wheel you take off rinse return once a month. and it removes the ammonia for you, as well as breaking down what doesnt offgass into trites and trates, as well as helping to oxygenate your water better by allowing more conatact time for air exchange.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
IMO the biowheel is worth a piece of live rock(baseball size). with some bad stuff in it....
what bad stuff is on biowheels?
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The biowheel keeps running and collecting, running and collecting. Even though it has tons of bacteria, that bacteria isn't that good, its waste,Ammonia and other crap. It just keeps trickiling back to the tank...
Are you serious????? what bad bacteria grows on it?? The bacteria breaks down ammonia it doesnt dump it into the tank. Do you not understand the nature of the biological reaction that happens on biowheels? its like saying you have to replace your rock because the bacteria is no good thats nonsense. I think you seriously need to research a little more before claiming biowheels dump ammonia and bad bacteria into your tank.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
So if you have one of this items in your tank :Liverock, carbon filter,sandbed,skimmer,or do regular water changes. IMO you don't needed..
I never said you need it with a properly set up tank. I think your missing the entire span of the conversation.
ReefkprZ, I think your giving the Bio-wheel too much credit...and that would make it dependant. We cannot compare a skimmer with the biowheel.
of course we can they both can remove a by product from our tanks. leaving ammonia in is no different from leaving protien in to break down into ammonia. If anything we can say a skimmer is worse because it also removes lots of benificial stuff like calcium (as well as other elements) and micro orginisms that get trapped and removed with the skimmer waste. bio wheels dont remove calcium or microcritters.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The biowheel is not an unit by it self(like a skimmer), you have to have a filter to run it....
mostly true but if you have the filter why would you make it less effective by removing a part of it? you can buy add ons if you desired that you can run on a powerhead, they dont have to be on a filter.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
I still run my emperor 400 which is the father of biowheels. But i don't have my biowheel in it cause a have a skimmer, 5" dsb,run carbon monthly, do weekly water changes.. why should i run my biowheel?....
because its more filtration. IMO more filtration is better than less.n its like having one more chunk of live rock, why not?
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The difference here is that you remove the waist by throwing the Gunk out the collection cup..
thats right you have to take the time to pysically remove the cuyp dump it wash it reinstall it every week, a bio wheel you take off rinse return once a month. and it removes the ammonia for you, as well as breaking down what doesnt offgass into trites and trates, as well as helping to oxygenate your water better by allowing more conatact time for air exchange.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
IMO the biowheel is worth a piece of live rock(baseball size). with some bad stuff in it....
what bad stuff is on biowheels?
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
The biowheel keeps running and collecting, running and collecting. Even though it has tons of bacteria, that bacteria isn't that good, its waste,Ammonia and other crap. It just keeps trickiling back to the tank...
Are you serious????? what bad bacteria grows on it?? The bacteria breaks down ammonia it doesnt dump it into the tank. Do you not understand the nature of the biological reaction that happens on biowheels? its like saying you have to replace your rock because the bacteria is no good thats nonsense. I think you seriously need to research a little more before claiming biowheels dump ammonia and bad bacteria into your tank.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
So if you have one of this items in your tank :Liverock, carbon filter,sandbed,skimmer,or do regular water changes. IMO you don't needed..
I never said you need it with a properly set up tank. I think your missing the entire span of the conversation.
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Biowheel=offgassing in massive amounts: Woudn't you get the same effect if you take the Biowheel out, since you're left with the spray bar and cascade effect except without the Nitrates..
I never said massive amounts and no you dont get the same amount of off gassing by the spray bar and cascade you get more signifigant off gassing with the high amount of time and surface area that water has to contact air on the biowheel. you really are having a hard time grasping the concept of air to water contact ratio as well as the very nature of the biowheel. instead of gettin nitrates as an end product you just dump the ammonia back in without biofiltering it, or allowing it to off gass, yes if you have rock and sand and flow in signifigant amounts you dont NEED it. I NEVER SAID YOU DID. I said its a great addition to a system.
There are NO bad things about running a bio wheel When properly maintained.
and before any one takes this as me claiming biowheels are the best thing ever I never said they were, honestly I dont think they have sufficient surface area to provide a huge biological difference in any but the smallest tanks. they are good when used in conjunction with other means of filtration. they arent the answer to every thing. they just arent nearly as bad as people think.
Biowheel=offgassing in massive amounts: Woudn't you get the same effect if you take the Biowheel out, since you're left with the spray bar and cascade effect except without the Nitrates..
I never said massive amounts and no you dont get the same amount of off gassing by the spray bar and cascade you get more signifigant off gassing with the high amount of time and surface area that water has to contact air on the biowheel. you really are having a hard time grasping the concept of air to water contact ratio as well as the very nature of the biowheel. instead of gettin nitrates as an end product you just dump the ammonia back in without biofiltering it, or allowing it to off gass, yes if you have rock and sand and flow in signifigant amounts you dont NEED it. I NEVER SAID YOU DID. I said its a great addition to a system.
There are NO bad things about running a bio wheel When properly maintained.
and before any one takes this as me claiming biowheels are the best thing ever I never said they were, honestly I dont think they have sufficient surface area to provide a huge biological difference in any but the smallest tanks. they are good when used in conjunction with other means of filtration. they arent the answer to every thing. they just arent nearly as bad as people think.