Bush's War

[suzy]

Rude, I think OBL won't have been able to recruit like he did if the people around him didn't already hate us. It seems like our relationship with Israel, and our favoritism in that conflict is where we need to start looking for solutions to "the war on terror". But, as long as we have people who would rather kill than talk in positions of power, it won't happen.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567211
k. Russia literally invented Communism. Befell in WW1? What history class have you been too? .

I'll ask the same of you Rude. Karl Marx is usually creditied as being the father of communism. He wrote the "Communist Manifesto" in 1848. 60+ years before the Russions "literally invented communism". Maybe you meant "Prussians" as Marx was born in Prussia in 1818.
You argument fails on you lack of knowledge.
You'd better go back to history class, or will you rewrite history to suit your needs?

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2567680
Rude, I think OBL won't have been able to recruit like he did if the people around him didn't already hate us. It seems like our relationship with Israel, and our favoritism in that conflict is where we need to start looking for solutions to "the war on terror". But, as long as we have people who would rather kill than talk in positions of power, it won't happen.
Suzy,
Could you not say the same thing about FDR's foreign policy in relation to the Japanese in 1939-1941? We refused to sell them needed war material. That lead to war.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2567590
Rudedog, you cannot possibly follow up a statement like with a quote like It's clear you are speaking about a topic you're not fully versed in.
So you really believe the families of 110 million people killed in 80 years by their governments are content under Communism?
If they hate their lives so much, why aren't they leaving in droves? Why does the USSR still thrive today, and are still considered a World Power?
The Iraqis wrote their own Constitution. We are not forcing our culture or political beliefs on them in any way... The Iraqi people voted, in masse. you've tried this argument before and failed. History hasn't changed.

Now that's a good one. We're not forcing our culture or political beliefs on them? You're the one spouting how we're doing so much good over there by helping them build a Democratic society! You're now telling me Sadaam was running a democracy when he was in control? Would you object if another country came in and built the Saudi government on their political base? How about an English Parliament? Or course you would. It's Democracy or nothing.
I was wondering how long before you took a cheap shot at organized religion....
Well that would be a novel, considering your Isolationist attitude is responsible for the previous two World Wars...
So we should allow terrorists to dictate who our Allies are? It's surprising to you that given the choice of a mercenary army or the US Military the Saudi's opted for us? Further, you're saying the US should ignore it when one of our allies gets completely overrun by an invading army?

It's comical that you twist any argument you disagree on in your favor. Yea, I'm no historian or an expert on politics. I don't spend my days wondering what each political party in the world is doing. On the other hand, you want to stick Amrica's political views into everyone's business. Why? Because you have this paranoid fear that someone is going to change your precious lifestyle to one you don't agree with. The US doesn't own the world, nor dictate how other countries run thiers. When was the last actual invasion of a foreign country on US soil? With the exception of the Mexicans, try NEVER! (I'm sure Mr. 'journey' The Historian will come up with some answer to refute that claim). I'm also not talking about 9-11, or any other teroristic attack. I'm talking a full-scale land/sea/air invasion. Again, NEVER! Why? Because no other country in their right mind (with the exception of Russia in the 50's and 60's) would try it. But you have to go over to the most volatile region on Earth and shake the trees and tick off the people who Crash describe as "radical fundamental idealists . They are nothing more than ticking time bombs waiting to go off . They don't need a reason but they sure will use any excuse." I bet you two sit huddle in your house at night holding your handguns or rifles waiting for one of them Al-Qaeda to come busting through your door.

Learn to life your lives, and quit worrying about what the other moronic countries in this world are doing. Isolationist? You betcha baby! This country has the full capability to sustain itself without the help of any other nation. We have the people, we have the natural and man-made resources, and we have the technology. Get rid of any foreign dependence and go back to 'Made in the USA'. You want a military? Build one to support our borders and our people. Don't send them half way across the world to defend and assist a bunch of maniacs that will care less what we did for them 10 years from now.

 

[oscardeuce]

Hey Rude,
Lenin, the leader of the "Revolution" and "inventor of communism" according to your world histroy was born in 1870. Marx wrote the manifesto in 1848. How did Lenin "invent" Communism before he was born?

 

[oscardeuce]

When was the last actual invasion of a foreign country on US soil? With the exception of the Mexicans, try NEVER! (I'm sure Mr. 'journey' The Historian will come up with some answer to refute that claim).QUOTE]
I'm sure Journey would agree that Alaska was a US territory from 1867 to 1959 when it bacame a state.
The Japanese occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska a "a full-scale land/sea/air invasion" in June 1942. IIRC, a territory is still considered "US soil". So again you are incorrect.
http://worldwar2database.com/html/aleutians.htm

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2567705
Suzy,
Could you not say the same thing about FDR's foreign policy in relation to the Japanese in 1939-1941? We refused to sell them needed war material. That lead to war.
We had trade embargos in place against Germany before both World Wars as well.
It would seem some on the Left believe taking a stand and refusing to give in to terrorist demands is a bad thing...

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rudedog
If they hate their lives so much, why aren't they leaving in droves?
Ya ever wonder why the Soviets built the Berlin Wall? Why the North Koreans patrol their fence so heavily? Why the Soviets and Chinese monitor their olympic athletes when they are out of the country?
Are you seriously arguing that people enjoy living in countries where 110 million people were killed by their own Government in the last 80 years?
Originally Posted by rudedog
It's comical that you twist any argument you disagree on in your favor
I love how the word "twist" keeps getting used everytime a Liberal posts something factaully incorrect. I didn't twist anything Rudedog. By your own admission what I posted was correct and your info was wrong. So, pointing that out is "twisting" things?
You are trying to make the argument that people chosse to and enjoy living under oppressive,brutal, muderous dictatorships... Talk about twisted.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2567790
We had trade embargos in place against Germany before both World Wars as well.
It would seem some on the Left believe taking a stand and refusing to give in to terrorist demands is a bad thing...
Strong USA bad
Lenin,Marx, Nevielle Chamberlain good.
Didn't Chamberlain some back from Germany after "talking" with a signed pact from Hitler NOT to attack Britain?
That worked well. Liberals never learn from history.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567731
When was the last actual invasion of a foreign country on US soil? With the exception of the Mexicans, try NEVER! (I'm sure Mr. 'journey' The Historian will come up with some answer to refute that claim).

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2567746
I'm sure Journey would agree that Alaska was a US territory from 1867 to 1959 when it bacame a state.
The Japanese occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska a "a full-scale land/sea/air invasion" in June 1942. IIRC, a territory is still considered "US soil". So again you are incorrect.
http://worldwar2database.com/html/aleutians.htm
Indeed.
I would also argue the Iranian forced occupation of our Tehran Embassy was a violation of our sovereignty.
I like how it is a bad thing that I know historical facts...

 

[oscardeuce]

Ya ever wonder why the Soviets built the Berlin Wall? Why the North Koreans patrol their fence so heavily? Why the Soviets and Chinese monitor their olympic athletes when they are out of the country?
Are you seriously arguing that people enjoy living in countries where 110 million people were killed by their own Government in the last 80 years?
QUOTE]
When was the last time someone died swimming from Florida TO Cuba?

 

[1journeyman]

lol, great point... I haven't even been talking about Cuba.

 

[breiwa1]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567036
Crash, your arrogant ego about our country being the Dominant Power of The World is what keeps other nations hating us so much. You actually think the modern civilizations of the World would cease to exist because we're not around? You chastise Russian and Chinese political philosophies, but they've been working for them alot longer than this country has been around. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist and thrive as they do today. What you think are backwards or abhorant living conditions, are just natural occurrances for people who live in different regions of the world. I think living in an igloo or in sub-zero temperatures stupid. But don't tell that to an Eskimo. You may think Communism, Socialism, or any other form of government besides Democracy leads to evil and the end of humanity, but it's just a normal way of life for a majority of the people who live on this Earth. I think it's pathetic that certain people in this country think it's our duty to stuff our philosophies down other cultures throats simply because they disagree with the ones they been living with for centuries.
Wow, this is the most inaccurate information I have every read on a forum, which puts it high in the ranking for anything written. I will not point out the obvious flaws as many others already have. You really should do a little reading before you spout this type of garbage.
It is this type of thinking that has ruined our country. If china and russia are so great why do you go live there and report back to us?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567036
Crash, your arrogant ego about our country being the Dominant Power of The World is what keeps other nations hating us so much. You actually think the modern civilizations of the World would cease to exist because we're not around? You chastise Russian and Chinese political philosophies, but they've been working for them alot longer than this country has been around. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist and thrive as they do today. What you think are backwards or abhorant living conditions, are just natural occurrances for people who live in different regions of the world. I think living in an igloo or in sub-zero temperatures stupid. But don't tell that to an Eskimo. You may think Communism, Socialism, or any other form of government besides Democracy leads to evil and the end of humanity, but it's just a normal way of life for a majority of the people who live on this Earth. I think it's pathetic that certain people in this country think it's our duty to stuff our philosophies down other cultures throats simply because they disagree with the ones they been living with for centuries.
what is wrong with believing that America is the greatest nation on earth?

The problem with you libs is that we are the greatest nation on earth. And you libs want to take us down a notch. And since capitalism and democracy does work, why would we not try to show the rest of the world the best way to do things? Starvation and famine are serious worldwide problems, but we shouldn't try to show them a workable system. Na. Of course not.
You are the arrogant party in this case. With our conservative philosophy we want these people to have the opportunity to better themselves to put food on the table, heck to have a table to put food on, a roof clothes.
You are perfectly willing to allow the "natural living conditions" to continue while you are sitting on the answer to the problem and not doing a thing about it. All in the name of "not forcing our ways" on other people. If you have the cure to it you'd be wrong not to share it.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567036
You chastise Russian and Chinese political philosophies, but they've been working for them alot longer than this country has been around. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist and thrive as they do today.
That is funny I could have sworn Karl wrote the Communist Manifesto after our Constitution.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by breiwa1
http:///forum/post/2567849
Wow, this is the most inaccurate information I have every read on a forum, which puts it high in the ranking for anything written. I will not point out the obvious flaws as many others already have. You really should do a little reading before you spout this type of garbage.
It is this type of thinking that has ruined our country. If china and russia are so great why do you go live there and report back to us?
Now there's an original comeback. I was waiting for the "If you don't like it here, go live somewhere else" retort. I have no desire to go live there. I grew up in this country with its cultures, mannerisms, and philosophies. I have no problem with where I live (to a point). And if you did go over to Russia or China, you would most likely find many people over there who feel the same way about their country and their way of living. It may be oppressive and denegrating to you, but that's because you didn't grow up in that environment. That's the point I'm trying to get across into your feable mind. Individuals have their own vision of what they think is a 'normal way of life'. You want to cram US principles and philosophies down the throats of every nation in the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some people don't agree with that or want it. So what do they do? Start a fight to protect their rights and beliefs. You're afraid if we don't protect our Democratic philosophies directly in volatile areas of the world (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Korea) they will do another Pearl Harbor on us. Sorry, but this isn't 1914 or 1942. If there ever is another 'Big One', it'll be the last one this world will ever know, because no one will be left to talk about it.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2567864
what is wrong with believing that America is the greatest nation on earth?

The problem with you libs is that we are the greatest nation on earth. And you libs want to take us down a notch. And since capitalism and democracy does work, why would we not try to show the rest of the world the best way to do things? Starvation and famine are serious worldwide problems, but we shouldn't try to show them a workable system. Na. Of course not.
You are the arrogant party in this case. With our conservative philosophy we want these people to have the opportunity to better themselves to put food on the table, heck to have a table to put food on, a roof clothes.
You are perfectly willing to allow the "natural living conditions" to continue while you are sitting on the answer to the problem and not doing a thing about it. All in the name of "not forcing our ways" on other people. If you have the cure to it you'd be wrong not to share it.

Welcome to the 21st Century. Take care of your own before you take care of someone else. Just because we have this 'perfect society', doesn't mean we should ignore the problems in our own backyards. You have people living in this country that have the same deplorable conditions as some of these Third World countries, yet they get no support or relief. The attitude with the conservatives is, "You already live in a great country. You don't need help from us. Fend for yourself. We're too busy helping the rest of the world." You want to brag to everyone who listens "The USA is the Greatest Nation In The World!"? Great. No problem with that. Just prove it by making it that kind of world for everyone who lives HERE, before doing it for another country first.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567891
Now there's an original comeback. I was waiting for the "If you don't like it here, go live somewhere else" retort. I have no desire to go live there. I grew up in this country with its cultures, mannerisms, and philosophies. I have no problem with where I live (to a point). And if you did go over to Russia or China, you would most likely find many people over there who feel the same way about their country and their way of living. It may be oppressive and denegrating to you, but that's because you didn't grow up in that environment. That's the point I'm trying to get across into your feable mind. Individuals have their own vision of what they think is a 'normal way of life'. You want to cram US principles and philosophies down the throats of every nation in the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some people don't agree with that or want it. So what do they do? Start a fight to protect their rights and beliefs. You're afraid if we don't protect our Democratic philosophies directly in volatile areas of the world (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Korea) they will do another Pearl Harbor on us. Sorry, but this isn't 1914 or 1942. If there ever is another 'Big One', it'll be the last one this world will ever know, because no one will be left to talk about it.
Rude,
Pearl was in 1941, not 1942

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567901
Welcome to the 21st Century. Take care of your own before you take care of someone else. Just because we have this 'perfect society', doesn't mean we should ignore the problems in our own backyards. You have people living in this country that have the same deplorable conditions as some of these Third World countries, yet they get no support or relief. The attitude with the conservatives is, "You already live in a great country. You don't need help from us. Fend for yourself. We're too busy helping the rest of the world." You want to brag to everyone who listens "The USA is the Greatest Nation In The World!"? Great. No problem with that. Just prove it by making it that kind of world for everyone who lives HERE, before doing it for another country first.
Wow do you really believe that? You've clearly never been overseas. Pictures don't give the poverty justice. The "poverty" conditions here are no where near the poverty conditions in other countries. I've personally worked in guatamala with an organization that would set up a mobile hospital. There were people who would walk 2 days over mountains to get there to get a really basic check up and basic medicines like cold medicine and denistry. (many times our camp was set up above 10,000 feet.) I've also worked here for various homeless shelters. And some that would go to their "home" I've seen the worse here and overseas. And no there is very little "real poverty" in the United states. And this is with the 700 BILLION dollars we dump into social programs on a yearly basis. Not counting the private organizations like churches, salvation army, the American Red Cross and other double that number (if I remember right)
So yeah you're right we just leave people to fend for themselves. Come on quit getting your impression of the USA and poverty overseas from CNN and go out there yourself.
But you are right, Conservatives believe in self-accountability, the United States was built into this great nation on self-accountability and self-reliance. It isn't the US government's job for you to put food on your table, it is your job.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2567905
Rude,
Pearl was in 1941, not 1942
*** The fact zone**** (although now that a conservative said the date it means it is wrong at least to suzy)

Well I mean it was December 7, 1941 so it was almost 1942.