Bush's War

[crashbandicoot]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567731
It's comical that you twist any argument you disagree on in your favor. Yea, I'm no historian or an expert on politics. I don't spend my days wondering what each political party in the world is doing. On the other hand, you want to stick Amrica's political views into everyone's business. Why? Because you have this paranoid fear that someone is going to change your precious lifestyle to one you don't agree with. The US doesn't own the world, nor dictate how other countries run thiers. When was the last actual invasion of a foreign country on US soil? With the exception of the Mexicans, try NEVER! (I'm sure Mr. 'journey' The Historian will come up with some answer to refute that claim). I'm also not talking about 9-11, or any other teroristic attack. I'm talking a full-scale land/sea/air invasion. Again, NEVER! Why? Because no other country in their right mind (with the exception of Russia in the 50's and 60's) would try it. But you have to go over to the most volatile region on Earth and shake the trees and tick off the people who Crash describe as "radical fundamental idealists . They are nothing more than ticking time bombs waiting to go off . They don't need a reason but they sure will use any excuse." I bet you two sit huddle in your house at night holding your handguns or rifles waiting for one of them Al-Qaeda to come busting through your door.

Learn to life your lives, and quit worrying about what the other moronic countries in this world are doing. Isolationist? You betcha baby! This country has the full capability to sustain itself without the help of any other nation. We have the people, we have the natural and man-made resources, and we have the technology. Get rid of any foreign dependence and go back to 'Made in the USA'. You want a military? Build one to support our borders and our people. Don't send them half way across the world to defend and assist a bunch of maniacs that will care less what we did for them 10 years from now.

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567891
Now there's an original comeback. I was waiting for the "If you don't like it here, go live somewhere else" retort. I have no desire to go live there. I grew up in this country with its cultures, mannerisms, and philosophies. I have no problem with where I live (to a point). And if you did go over to Russia or China, you would most likely find many people over there who feel the same way about their country and their way of living. It may be oppressive and denegrating to you, but that's because you didn't grow up in that environment. That's the point I'm trying to get across into your feable mind. Individuals have their own vision of what they think is a 'normal way of life'. You want to cram US principles and philosophies down the throats of every nation in the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some people don't agree with that or want it. So what do they do? Start a fight to protect their rights and beliefs. You're afraid if we don't protect our Democratic philosophies directly in volatile areas of the world (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Korea) they will do another Pearl Harbor on us. Sorry, but this isn't 1914 or 1942. If there ever is another 'Big One', it'll be the last one this world will ever know, because no one will be left to talk about it.

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567901
Welcome to the 21st Century. Take care of your own before you take care of someone else. Just because we have this 'perfect society', doesn't mean we should ignore the problems in our own backyards. You have people living in this country that have the same deplorable conditions as some of these Third World countries, yet they get no support or relief. The attitude with the conservatives is, "You already live in a great country. You don't need help from us. Fend for yourself. We're too busy helping the rest of the world." You want to brag to everyone who listens "The USA is the Greatest Nation In The World!"? Great. No problem with that. Just prove it by making it that kind of world for everyone who lives HERE, before doing it for another country first.

Just an idea here but since you have no real knowlage of history you might want to stop referancing it in your arguments . It relly makes you look foolish and ignorant . At every point you have atempted to use involving military or political history you have been wrong and miss informed . We all aplaude you for the atempt but you might want to educate yourself on the subjects you wish to use as points of America's failuers in history . Who knows after you educate your self you might realize how off your ideas are and you might actually change your opinions of obama , war on terrorism , international policy .

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567901
Welcome to the 21st Century. Take care of your own before you take care of someone else. Just because we have this 'perfect society', doesn't mean we should ignore the problems in our own backyards. You have people living in this country that have the same deplorable conditions as some of these Third World countries, yet they get no support or relief. The attitude with the conservatives is, "You already live in a great country. You don't need help from us. Fend for yourself. We're too busy helping the rest of the world." You want to brag to everyone who listens "The USA is the Greatest Nation In The World!"? Great. No problem with that. Just prove it by making it that kind of world for everyone who lives HERE, before doing it for another country first.
And who's fault is that. Here in the state of New Mexico anyone making under 30,000 a year qualifies for programs equalling an additional 30,000 dollars a year in state and federally funded aid.
So tell me.....why the "poor" in this country need further catering to? That is the equivalent to 60,000 dollars a year that they only have to work for half of.

 

[breiwa1]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567891
Now there's an original comeback. I was waiting for the "If you don't like it here, go live somewhere else" retort. I have no desire to go live there. I grew up in this country with its cultures, mannerisms, and philosophies. I have no problem with where I live (to a point). And if you did go over to Russia or China, you would most likely find many people over there who feel the same way about their country and their way of living. It may be oppressive and denegrating to you, but that's because you didn't grow up in that environment. That's the point I'm trying to get across into your feable mind. Individuals have their own vision of what they think is a 'normal way of life'. You want to cram US principles and philosophies down the throats of every nation in the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some people don't agree with that or want it. So what do they do? Start a fight to protect their rights and beliefs. You're afraid if we don't protect our Democratic philosophies directly in volatile areas of the world (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Korea) they will do another Pearl Harbor on us. Sorry, but this isn't 1914 or 1942. If there ever is another 'Big One', it'll be the last one this world will ever know, because no one will be left to talk about it.
I was only stating the fact you were 100% wrong on everything you mentioned in your post, you made it up. You can keep your head in the sand all you want, not me though. You are wrong, Just admit it.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2567891
Now there's an original comeback. I was waiting for the "If you don't like it here, go live somewhere else" retort.
To be fair, that statements cousin "If you are so supportive of Iraq when are you shipping out" was orignally used by you...
Originally Posted by Rudedog
I have no desire to go live there. I grew up in this country with its cultures, mannerisms, and philosophies. I have no problem with where I live (to a point). And if you did go over to Russia or China, you would most likely find many people over there who feel the same way about their country and their way of living. It may be oppressive and denegrating to you, but that's because you didn't grow up in that environment. That's the point I'm trying to get across into your feable mind. Individuals have their own vision of what they think is a 'normal way of life'. You want to cram US principles and philosophies down the throats of every nation in the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some people don't agree with that or want it. So what do they do? Start a fight to protect their rights and beliefs. You're afraid if we don't protect our Democratic philosophies directly in volatile areas of the world (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Korea) they will do another Pearl Harbor on us. Sorry, but this isn't 1914 or 1942. If there ever is another 'Big One', it'll be the last one this world will ever know, because no one will be left to talk about it.
Again, are you trying to argue that people actually choose and enjoy living under regimes responsible for the deaths of over 110 million of their friends and families in the past 80 years?
Rudedog, I don't know about you, but I actually have traveled to former Soviet Block countries. I still keep in touch with people who I met in countries like Macedonia, Hungary, Bulgaria and Slovakia. Guess what; They actually enjoy life now a lot more than how it was 18 years ago...

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2567947
*** The fact zone**** (although now that a conservative said the date it means it is wrong at least to suzy)

Well I mean it was December 7, 1941 so it was almost 1942.

I had a friend, since deceased, whose brother is still on patrol on the USS Arizona.
My friend flew P-51's over Korea. He was shot down by a blonde "North Korean" in a MiG 15.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2567940
Wow do you really believe that? You've clearly never been overseas. Pictures don't give the poverty justice. The "poverty" conditions here are no where near the poverty conditions in other countries. I've personally worked in guatamala with an organization that would set up a mobile hospital. There were people who would walk 2 days over mountains to get there to get a really basic check up and basic medicines like cold medicine and denistry. (many times our camp was set up above 10,000 feet.) I've also worked here for various homeless shelters. And some that would go to their "home" I've seen the worse here and overseas. And no there is very little "real poverty" in the United states. And this is with the 700 BILLION dollars we dump into social programs on a yearly basis. Not counting the private organizations like churches, salvation army, the American Red Cross and other double that number (if I remember right)
So yeah you're right we just leave people to fend for themselves. Come on quit getting your impression of the USA and poverty overseas from CNN and go out there yourself.
But you are right, Conservatives believe in self-accountability, the United States was built into this great nation on self-accountability and self-reliance. It isn't the US government's job for you to put food on your table, it is your job.
Yes, I've been to MANY depressed countries - Mexico, Honduras, Central America, Phillipines, Vietnam (served a tour there), and even some squallers in various parts of Europe. But I've also seen some places in this country that looked eerily similar - people living in cardboard huts with dirt floors, no running water, the same clothes they probably had for years --- sound familiar? I agree the destitute in this country have opportunities to better themselves over other countries (explains why we have so many Mexicans crossing the border on a daily basis). But the money this country spends on overseas aid could be used to improve our infrastructure - roads, bridges, dams, housing for our destitute, and even medical care (yea, yea, I know journey - heaven forbid I talk about socialized medicine). Take the trillion dollars we've spent over in Iraq, and use it on the levees in New Orleans. Maybe the devastation of Katrina would've never happened. Repair all the bridges going over the Misssissippi - how many people died in that debacle? Shore up major buildings and highways along the California coast. Scientists have recently stated there WILL be a major earthquake in Southern California within the next 10 years. Not IF, but WHEN they are not sure. So instead of assisting Americans who will lose everthing, we'll be rebuilding structures in Iraq we blew up in the first place. Go figure...

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2568217
. But I've also seen some places in this country that looked eerily similar - people living in cardboard huts with dirt floors, no running water, the same clothes they probably had for years --- sound familiar? .
Where?....I have never seen a house with a dirt floor in this country for the last 25 years. unless you are referring to hillbillyies and amish THAT CHOOSE TO LIVE LIKE THAT. I had a family friend that lived way up in the Ozarks. No running water (he gathered it from a stream), no electricity, he used candles at night and read books. He drove into town once a month to buy a few necesesities. but he farmed and raised farm animals to provide for himself and his family. strangest thing I ever saw, but it was their choice.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2567962
Just an idea here but since you have no real knowlage of history you might want to stop referancing it in your arguments . It relly makes you look foolish and ignorant . At every point you have atempted to use involving military or political history you have been wrong and miss informed . We all aplaude you for the atempt but you might want to educate yourself on the subjects you wish to use as points of America's failuers in history . Who knows after you educate your self you might realize how off your ideas are and you might actually change your opinions of obama , war on terrorism , international policy .
What does history have to do with reality? You want to live in some fantasy world that terrorism can be eradicated by simply staying in a useless war. Speaking of being foolish and ignorant. Open your eyes Crash.
As for history references that you say I know nothing about:
"You're afraid if we don't protect our Democratic philosophies directly in volatile areas of the world (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Korea) they will do another Pearl Harbor on us. Sorry, but this isn't 1914 or 1942. If there ever is another 'Big One', it'll be the last one this world will ever know, because no one will be left to talk about it."
1914 - Start of World War 1
1942 - The year the US entered WW2 after Pearl Harbor
To me, those are the 'Big Ones' I'm referencing. If another war of this magnitude ever occurs, it'll involve nuclear weapons, henceworth the reference no one will be left to talk about it.
"When was the last actual invasion of a foreign country on US soil? With the exception of the Mexicans, try NEVER! (I'm sure Mr. 'journey' The Historian will come up with some answer to refute that claim). I'm also not talking about 9-11, or any other teroristic attack. I'm talking a full-scale land/sea/air invasion. Again, NEVER! Why? Because no other country in their right mind (with the exception of Russia in the 50's and 60's) would try it."
So Mr. History Expert, when was the last foreign invasion onto American soil that wasn't a terroristic attack, or some incursion on some island off the coast of Alaska? I'm talking INVASION (kinda like the one we're doing in Iraq?).
"Welcome to the 21st Century. Take care of your own before you take care of someone else. Just because we have this 'perfect society', doesn't mean we should ignore the problems in our own backyards. You have people living in this country that have the same deplorable conditions as some of these Third World countries, yet they get no support or relief. The attitude with the conservatives is, "You already live in a great country. You don't need help from us. Fend for yourself. We're too busy helping the rest of the world." You want to brag to everyone who listens "The USA is the Greatest Nation In The World!"? Great. No problem with that. Just prove it by making it that kind of world for everyone who lives HERE, before doing it for another country first."
What does this have to do with history? I'm simply stating how the Federal Government puts our country second when it comes providing assistance. Sounds like you just want to toot your horn to make noise. When it starts making sense, I'll listen...

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2568230
Where?....I have never seen a house with a dirt floor in this country for the last 25 years. unless you are referring to hillbillyies and amish THAT CHOOSE TO LIVE LIKE THAT. I had a family friend that lived way up in the Ozarks. No running water (he gathered it from a stream), no electricity, he used candles at night and read books. He drove into town once a month to buy a few necesesities. but he farmed and raised farm animals to provide for himself and his family. strangest thing I ever saw, but it was their choice.

Go drive around the Fifth Ward in Houston, parts of South Detroit, burroughs in New York, East LA. All you have to do is open your eyes and look. I know of some shacks here on the Southside of San Antonio that have four walls and a roof with holes in it. No bigger than 400 square feet, and the floors are literally dirt. I should know. The old man living there recently died. I bought the property and put a storage facility on it.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2568234
What does this have to do with history? I'm simply stating how the Federal Government puts our country second when it comes providing assistance. Sounds like you just want to toot your horn to make noise. When it starts making sense, I'll listen...
second? We spend 850 billion dollars a year on just programs that help, elderly, poor, sickly, young, and everyone else with special needs. The MAJORITY of our budget goes to these social programs. This portion far out exceeds any money we spend on roads, military and treasury, government employment, and any other government institution or foreign aid we provide. SECOND? Dude stop throwing thoughts out that just are not true.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2568244

Go drive around the Fifth Ward in Houston, parts of South Detroit, burroughs in New York, East LA. All you have to do is open your eyes and look. I know of some shacks here on the Southside of San Antonio that have four walls and a roof with holes in it. No bigger than 400 square feet, and the floors are literally dirt. I should know. The old man living there recently died. I bought the property and put a storage facility on it.
I can't speak for the other places, but I've been all over Houston. There are not people living in cardboard boxes unless they are part of the "homeless" population. I've also been all over San Antone' Again, the poor (if they are here legally) in the USA do not compare to the poor living across the river in Mexico.
Our country certainly has a homeless population, as does every nation in the world. Ironically, those churches you so often bash provide a lot of care for these people.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2568244

Go drive around the Fifth Ward in Houston, parts of South Detroit, burroughs in New York, East LA. All you have to do is open your eyes and look. I know of some shacks here on the Southside of San Antonio that have four walls and a roof with holes in it. No bigger than 400 square feet, and the floors are literally dirt. I should know. The old man living there recently died. I bought the property and put a storage facility on it.

when you bought the property did they tell you he was poor? couldn't fix it up...or are you making the assumption and not accepting the fact maybe he was a man of simple needs. There are people like this. Been to east LA, and South Detroit, both with in the last 10 years. Neither place did I see dirt floors.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2568244

Go drive around the Fifth Ward in Houston, parts of South Detroit, burroughs in New York, East LA. All you have to do is open your eyes and look. I know of some shacks here on the Southside of San Antonio that have four walls and a roof with holes in it. No bigger than 400 square feet, and the floors are literally dirt. I should know. The old man living there recently died. I bought the property and put a storage facility on it.

You should practice what you preach . Maybe instead of a storage facility you should built some nice low income housing for the poor and needy people Posibly an out reach center or maybe a comunity center for the kids in the neighbor hood . Its ok though people can always use a storage to put the stuff they have collected in this down and out nation of ours .
You truely are a champion for the less fortunate of our country . Keep up the good work

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2568257
when you bought the property did they tell you he was poor? couldn't fix it up...or are you making the assumption and not accepting the fact maybe he was a man of simple needs. There are people like this. Been to east LA, and South Detroit, both with in the last 10 years. Neither place did I see dirt floors.
Lol, well between you and me we covered 4 of the five cities he listed.
Do we have poor people in the USA? Yes. Do we have entire cities of people living in city dumps (Mexico City), children living on the streets because a lack of orphnages (several countries in Central and S. America)... No.

 

[darthtang aw]

You know, if we had so many "poor" you would think we would have more children trying to sell me a chicklet on the street.....Could always use a good chicklet.
And I am sure I can cover the burroughs, just have to check with the soon to be in laws. One lived in Red Hook.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2568234
What does history have to do with reality? You want to live in some fantasy world that terrorism can be eradicated by simply staying in a useless war. Speaking of being foolish and ignorant. Open your eyes Crash.

What does history have to do with reality ? I believe that is very self explanitory . HISTORY IS REALITY . The same reality you tried to use to make your point about communism being better then democracy.
The only one arguing in hopes of a fantasy world is the liberals around here . Fantsy ideas of if we just leave them alon they will just go back to their lives . Fantasy ideas of if we just let the rest of the world do what ever while we build bridges and socialize everything and the world will be ok .
My eyes are wide open . But that makes me parinoid remember . Maybe we should all close our eyes and imagine real hard and when we open them terrorism will have gone away, oil prices will stop rising healthcare will become affordable to all poverty in america will have gone away .

 

[crashbandicoot]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2568234
What does history have to do with reality? You want to live in some fantasy world that terrorism can be eradicated by simply staying in a useless war. Speaking of being foolish and ignorant. Open your eyes Crash.
As for history references that you say I know nothing about:
"You're afraid if we don't protect our Democratic philosophies directly in volatile areas of the world (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Korea) they will do another Pearl Harbor on us. Sorry, but this isn't 1914 or 1942. If there ever is another 'Big One', it'll be the last one this world will ever know, because no one will be left to talk about it."
1914 - Start of World War 1
1942 - The year the US entered WW2 after Pearl Harbor
To me, those are the 'Big Ones' I'm referencing. If another war of this magnitude ever occurs, it'll involve nuclear weapons, henceworth the reference no one will be left to talk about it.
"When was the last actual invasion of a foreign country on US soil? With the exception of the Mexicans, try NEVER! (I'm sure Mr. 'journey' The Historian will come up with some answer to refute that claim). I'm also not talking about 9-11, or any other teroristic attack. I'm talking a full-scale land/sea/air invasion. Again, NEVER! Why? Because no other country in their right mind (with the exception of Russia in the 50's and 60's) would try it."
So Mr. History Expert, when was the last foreign invasion onto American soil that wasn't a terroristic attack, or some incursion on some island off the coast of Alaska? I'm talking INVASION (kinda like the one we're doing in Iraq?).
"Welcome to the 21st Century. Take care of your own before you take care of someone else. Just because we have this 'perfect society', doesn't mean we should ignore the problems in our own backyards. You have people living in this country that have the same deplorable conditions as some of these Third World countries, yet they get no support or relief. The attitude with the conservatives is, "You already live in a great country. You don't need help from us. Fend for yourself. We're too busy helping the rest of the world." You want to brag to everyone who listens "The USA is the Greatest Nation In The World!"? Great. No problem with that. Just prove it by making it that kind of world for everyone who lives HERE, before doing it for another country first."
What does this have to do with history? I'm simply stating how the Federal Government puts our country second when it comes providing assistance. Sounds like you just want to toot your horn to make noise. When it starts making sense, I'll listen...

Rude I hate to break it to you but we are technically in the middle of a world war . Take a look around at where there are wars involving multiple nations .
Journey answered your invasion question but that answer wasn't good becaus again your point was not valid . You think if we dont give them time the radicals wont eventually plan more attacks on american soil . I would like to remind you that terrorists are not interested in ocupying our land they are interested in iradicating our way of life .
But speaking of alaska I am still waiting on the link about igloos to be preferd housing for eskimos in the last decade .

 

[oscardeuce]

As for history references that you say I know nothing about:
1914 - Start of World War 1
1942 - The year the US entered WW2 after Pearl Harbor
QUOTE]
OMG
Rude,
The USA declared war on Japan 12/8/1941
In fact FDR signed the delcaration at 1610 local 12/8/1941.
We declared war on Germany 12/11/41.
Hitler and Mussolini’s declaration of war against the US on 11 December 1941.
You want to ask those who died defending the US in the Alleutians if that was not an "invasion"?
U.S. Entered World War I April 6, 1917
Any questions?
Prof O2

 

[oscardeuce]

As for history references that you say I know nothing about:
1914 - Start of World War 1
1942 - The year the US entered WW2 after Pearl Harbor
QUOTE]
Rude,
Where you getting 1942?
The USA declared war on Japan 12/8/1941
In fact FDR signed the delcaration at 1610 local 12/8/1941.
We declared war on Germany 12/11/41.
Hitler and Mussolini’s declaration of war against the US on 11 December 1941.
Any questions?
Prof O2

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2568280
You know, if we had so many "poor" you would think we would have more children trying to sell me a chicklet on the street.....Could always use a good chicklet.
And I am sure I can cover the burroughs, just have to check with the soon to be in laws. One lived in Red Hook.
Have you ever crossed the border and had 10 under 10 year old kids selling chicklets? Seriously, come on, and you expect me to buy into your argument that "America" is looking more and more like a third world country.
The flaw with yours and most liberal arguments is they find an isolated incident not representative of american society as a whole then attempt to spin it as if it were a commonplace. I don't see widespread famine. I don't see shortages on food, I don't see people lying on the floor infront of hospitals flies covering their bodies. I don't see widespread malnutrition due to lack of food. In America the poor people are FAT for gods sake. The poor eat too much food! You can research obesity numbers by economic standings. It is amazing. And even more amazing are people like you equating us to a 3rd world country. Just because you don't like the guy (bush) or the party in charge doesn't mean the sky is falling.
Actually I knew a guy who had a dirt floor. He was a potter worth sold his pots for 50 or 60 grand a piece. Live on the trinity river bottom, in a shack that flooded several times a year. He didn't even wear clothes. Would sit in his bathtub

[hr]
in his livingroom in the trinity river. He was a little nuts. And he was a millionaire.

Not that it has anything to do with it.