calcium reactor
- Thread starter fishking
- Start date
bang guy
Moderator
CaCO3 Reactors provide a steady addition of Calcium, Carbonate and a few trace elements. They are low maintenance compared to other methods.
They are not low cost. If you have a requirement for a lot of Calcium and Carbonate (a SPS/Clam tank) then they are by far the best approach. If you have a moderate requirement then it may or may not be worth it depending on your resources (balance time vs money).
YES!!!!! You can overdose. IMO a PH monitor is absolutely required when using a reactor.
They are not low cost. If you have a requirement for a lot of Calcium and Carbonate (a SPS/Clam tank) then they are by far the best approach. If you have a moderate requirement then it may or may not be worth it depending on your resources (balance time vs money).
YES!!!!! You can overdose. IMO a PH monitor is absolutely required when using a reactor.
neoreef
Member
Call me crazy, but Bob's tank may very well be getting Ca from shells.
Considering the results from Bang's experiment with Macros and pH, a lot of macros in the tank can cause the pH to drop at night as well as to rise to acceptable levels in daylight.
Bob doesn't add anything but tapwater and fish food, and never does a water change, so his alkalinity may be very low, and I suspect that the macros consume some of his carbonate during the photosynthesis period each day, decreasing his alkalinity further.
Lower alkalinity means lowered buffering capacity means a small change in acid or base concentration will have a greater effect on pH. In the lights off period, the plants don't photosynthesize or consume CO2 that the fish produce, some say the macros also produce CO2, and CO2 is acidic.
I have not read of Bob testing alkalinity or night-time/early morning pH, only mid-day pH, so we don't know that it does not dip low enough some of the time to dissolve some of his shell collection.
Call me crazy, but I can see this as a possibility...not that I think of this as a recommendable thing to do, but it apparantly works for Bob.
Considering the results from Bang's experiment with Macros and pH, a lot of macros in the tank can cause the pH to drop at night as well as to rise to acceptable levels in daylight.
Bob doesn't add anything but tapwater and fish food, and never does a water change, so his alkalinity may be very low, and I suspect that the macros consume some of his carbonate during the photosynthesis period each day, decreasing his alkalinity further.
Lower alkalinity means lowered buffering capacity means a small change in acid or base concentration will have a greater effect on pH. In the lights off period, the plants don't photosynthesize or consume CO2 that the fish produce, some say the macros also produce CO2, and CO2 is acidic.
I have not read of Bob testing alkalinity or night-time/early morning pH, only mid-day pH, so we don't know that it does not dip low enough some of the time to dissolve some of his shell collection.
Call me crazy, but I can see this as a possibility...not that I think of this as a recommendable thing to do, but it apparantly works for Bob.
neoreef
Member
you think his pH falls below 7.2ish?
Easily, if he has litle or no buffering capacity, and fish that breathe out CO2 at night.
Do I think his other inhabitants are happy? I suspect not, though his pH probably shoots up during the photosynthesis period, so they are not constantly bathed in acid...
Calcium carbonate is not the most soluble molecule, so I don't know if it is possilbe to dissolve the shells overnight enough to raise CA++.
Nor do I think Bob's method is recommended for anyone but Bob....
It would be interesting, just to find out, if Bob would consider testing for pH at a couple of different time points, such as first thing in morning as well as an evening time point. Also dkH.
PS. I have a BA in Chemistry that has gone unused for 25 years, although at work, I am considered a biologist, I am a biologist of rodents and cultured cells, not marine creatures. So I know just enough to be dangerous. After 9 mo of reefkeeping, I consider myself a newbie, and have enjoyed learning from the experiences of the folks on this board. You have all been a great help to me.
Thanks for the fun discussion!
Kathy
Easily, if he has litle or no buffering capacity, and fish that breathe out CO2 at night.
Do I think his other inhabitants are happy? I suspect not, though his pH probably shoots up during the photosynthesis period, so they are not constantly bathed in acid...
Calcium carbonate is not the most soluble molecule, so I don't know if it is possilbe to dissolve the shells overnight enough to raise CA++.
Nor do I think Bob's method is recommended for anyone but Bob....
It would be interesting, just to find out, if Bob would consider testing for pH at a couple of different time points, such as first thing in morning as well as an evening time point. Also dkH.
PS. I have a BA in Chemistry that has gone unused for 25 years, although at work, I am considered a biologist, I am a biologist of rodents and cultured cells, not marine creatures. So I know just enough to be dangerous. After 9 mo of reefkeeping, I consider myself a newbie, and have enjoyed learning from the experiences of the folks on this board. You have all been a great help to me.
Thanks for the fun discussion!
Kathy
neoreef
Member
Stop feeling sorry for yourself, Kip! You are my mentor!
In Bang's pH experiment, the pH swung from 8.4 to 7.7 in his well buffered water with macros and fish. It was the macros that made the difference. I think the macros consumed his buffer(carbonate). Tank without macros had a ph of 8.? to 8.0. The world now knows that Bob's got macros. So it is not inconceivable that the pH could swing lower in a system that is much older, not supplemented with carbonate or anything but fishfood and tap water. Lots of photosynthesizing plants consuming carbonate in daytime. Dollars to donuts, he's got no buffer in there!
No buffer, no way to prevent acid buildup at night when fish are breathing, but no photosynthesis is happening.
So Bob, your alk is a little low. I'm not sure that it's low enough to get your pH in the right range to dissolve Ca carbonate, and here's another wrinkle:
If you liberate calcium from the oyster shells, you are probably liberating carbonate ions as well, and that may increase your alkalinity a tad. By how much, I'm not sure, but now I need a nap. My head hurts!!!!
In Bang's pH experiment, the pH swung from 8.4 to 7.7 in his well buffered water with macros and fish. It was the macros that made the difference. I think the macros consumed his buffer(carbonate). Tank without macros had a ph of 8.? to 8.0. The world now knows that Bob's got macros. So it is not inconceivable that the pH could swing lower in a system that is much older, not supplemented with carbonate or anything but fishfood and tap water. Lots of photosynthesizing plants consuming carbonate in daytime. Dollars to donuts, he's got no buffer in there!
No buffer, no way to prevent acid buildup at night when fish are breathing, but no photosynthesis is happening.
So Bob, your alk is a little low. I'm not sure that it's low enough to get your pH in the right range to dissolve Ca carbonate, and here's another wrinkle:
If you liberate calcium from the oyster shells, you are probably liberating carbonate ions as well, and that may increase your alkalinity a tad. By how much, I'm not sure, but now I need a nap. My head hurts!!!!
cincyreefer
Active Member
I think the calcium might be coming from the macros.
bang guy
Moderator
Can you explain your logic Cincy?
I can see Macros being eaten by fish and dissolving absorbed CaCO3 but I can't see how anything living can actually manufacture Calcium.
I know Caulerpa contains a fair amount of Calcium but if you harvest Caulerpa it seems to me that it would tend to deplete Calcium and not increase levels.
I can see Macros being eaten by fish and dissolving absorbed CaCO3 but I can't see how anything living can actually manufacture Calcium.
I know Caulerpa contains a fair amount of Calcium but if you harvest Caulerpa it seems to me that it would tend to deplete Calcium and not increase levels.
cincyreefer
Active Member
He adds tap as top off water... As we all know tap water can contain many heavy metals, especially iron. Iron has pretty strong oxidation state. Most heavy metals consumed by macros are ion transfer, with calcium being transfered from the macro to the water column. If Bob had a big enough swing in his pH to dissolve some of the oyster shells then he probably would have seen some dissolution of his substrate for awhile. Not just since he added the oyster shells.
cincyreefer
Active Member
And since calcium is being released then that would explain why his calcium rose and not the carbonate as well.
It is also my opinion that this is the exact reason why some people see much more coraline growth in a refugium compared to their display tank.
It is also my opinion that this is the exact reason why some people see much more coraline growth in a refugium compared to their display tank.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally posted by cincyreefer
It is also my opinion that this is the exact reason why some people see much more coraline growth in a refugium compared to their display tank.
Coraline would require two Carbonates for each Calcium ion though. There would need to be a seperate Carbonate source in the refugium.
Just thinking on the keyboard.
cincyreefer
Active Member
Only if there is something to use a bunch of it up. 
So who knows!
On a side note... I think I am starting to see this same thing starting to happen to my "experiment" tank. I added some prolifera to the display about 2 weeks ago and the calcium has started to slightly raise (I am not making conclusions yet... just an observation). I really like the way it looks in the tank so far, and am starting to get some interesting ideas about the "experiment" so far.
So who knows!On a side note... I think I am starting to see this same thing starting to happen to my "experiment" tank. I added some prolifera to the display about 2 weeks ago and the calcium has started to slightly raise (I am not making conclusions yet... just an observation). I really like the way it looks in the tank so far, and am starting to get some interesting ideas about the "experiment" so far.
neoreef
Member
Beaslebob, I suggest you reread that thread. I had something to do with that discussion. I haven't forgotten it. It was a great thread...
I think you simply don't understand what a carbonate buffer is and how it works. I also think that an explanation from me won't help you understand...
Best of luck to you,
Kathy
I think you simply don't understand what a carbonate buffer is and how it works. I also think that an explanation from me won't help you understand...
Best of luck to you,
Kathy
cincyreefer
Active Member
Coraline would require two Carbonates for each Calcium ion though. There would need to be a seperate Carbonate source in the refugium.
I have wondered the same thing, which is why I have never really said much about this topic before. The only idea I have so far is that the Carbonate comes from the supply in the water column, but the coraline grows the most since it will have some "concentrated" amounts of calcium in the refugium to quickly use up. This might be why people who dose two part supplements will have to add much more carbonate than calcium. I am hoping to be able to get some evidence behind this theory, but still have several more months (or year) until longer term effects can be noticed.
I have wondered the same thing, which is why I have never really said much about this topic before. The only idea I have so far is that the Carbonate comes from the supply in the water column, but the coraline grows the most since it will have some "concentrated" amounts of calcium in the refugium to quickly use up. This might be why people who dose two part supplements will have to add much more carbonate than calcium. I am hoping to be able to get some evidence behind this theory, but still have several more months (or year) until longer term effects can be noticed.
cincyreefer
Active Member
What kind of coraline? IME, the dark red or maroon algae does prefer less intense lighting, but most other coralines prefer intense.
cincyreefer
Active Member
well don't you claim that "plants" can filter out heavy metals in the ppm? Then why wouldn't there be much as much Ca being released... I don't have my phd yet, but I think it may possible. I'll see if I can find that experiment as to how much Ca was actually released.