Can we get out of the Middle East, plez!

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez#post_3492672
The problem is the majority of religious factions in that region don't want anything to do with democracy. We killed one dictator to allow another in the wings to prepare himself to take over that Democratic system as soon as the opportunity arises. That opportunity is when we completely pull out of the Middle East. May not be next year, or the next 5. But it's almost a given that Iraq won't be able to maintain what the US handed them without the necessary military support. We've spent billions training their armies, and they've already had incidents where corruption in those ranks have occurred.
Don't want Democracy? Did you not see what the voter turnout in Iraq and Afghanistan was in their first free elections? In the 2010 elections Iraq had over 60% even being threatened and people being killed. In Afghanistan there were over 50 percent this year as screwed up as stuff is there. It's the religious leaders who don't want democracy because it strips their power. The Afghanis might be too backward to understand that but I think the Iraq people will.

 

[darthtang aw]

The problem is the majority of religious factions in that region don't want anything to do with democracy.  We killed one dictator to allow another in the wings to prepare himself to take over that Democratic system as soon as the opportunity arises.  That opportunity is when we completely pull out of the Middle East.  May not be next year, or the next 5.  But it's almost a given that Iraq won't be able to maintain what the US handed them without the necessary military support.  We've spent billions training their armies, and they've already had incidents where corruption in those ranks have occurred.
I am sorry, I was unaware of any violent Iraqi protests.

 

[darthtang aw]

This is the news related info pertaining to Iraq.
Baghdad (CNN) -- Hundreds took to streets in Iraq on Thursday, castigating an inflammatory anti-Islamic video and the nation where it was produced, the United States.
Angry protesters in the Sadr City district of northeast Baghdad carried banners, Iraqi flags and images of radical Shiite and anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr as they railed against what they see as an insult to their faith.
"America is the enemy of the people," the demonstrators shouted Thursday morning. They also yelled out, "Yes, yes to Islam. Yes, yes to Iraq. Yes, yes to Quran" -- the latter referring to the Muslim holy book.
Some protesters burned an American flag, while another put a U.S. flag on the ground and stepped on it to express his anger. Sabbar al-Saeidi, a member of Baghdad's provincial council, condemned the "Innocence of Muslims" film and called for the closing of U.S. embassies in all Arab and predominantly Muslim countries.
"Since (Americans) did not respect more than 1 billion Muslims all over the world, I call on all Muslim and Arab countries to launch an economic and diplomatic boycott of America and its agents," said one protester, Abbass Qahtan.
Sounds to me like a diplomatic Protest similar to what occurs in this country. However, I am sure they did not deficate in the street.
31 million people in Iraq, and only Hundreds took to the street.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492693
This is the news related info pertaining to Iraq.
Baghdad (CNN) -- Hundreds took to streets in Iraq on Thursday, castigating an inflammatory anti-Islamic video and the nation where it was produced, the United States.
Angry protesters in the Sadr City district of northeast Baghdad carried banners, Iraqi flags and images of radical Shiite and anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr as they railed against what they see as an insult to their faith.
"America is the enemy of the people," the demonstrators shouted Thursday morning. They also yelled out, "Yes, yes to Islam. Yes, yes to Iraq. Yes, yes to Quran" -- the latter referring to the Muslim holy book.
Some protesters burned an American flag, while another put a U.S. flag on the ground and stepped on it to express his anger. Sabbar al-Saeidi, a member of Baghdad's provincial council, condemned the "Innocence of Muslims" film and called for the closing of U.S. embassies in all Arab and predominantly Muslim countries.
"Since (Americans) did not respect more than 1 billion Muslims all over the world, I call on all Muslim and Arab countries to launch an economic and diplomatic boycott of America and its agents," said one protester, Abbass Qahtan.
Sounds to me like a diplomatic Protest similar to what occurs in this country. However, I am sure they did not deficate in the street.
31 million people in Iraq, and only Hundreds took to the street.
You wont hear it in the lamestream media but Afghanistan is the place that is going to pot. 70 percent of the total US deaths there have occurred over the last 3 years and many of them have been at the hands of Afghanis we have trained.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492693
This is the news related info pertaining to Iraq.
Baghdad (CNN) -- Hundreds took to streets in Iraq on Thursday, castigating an inflammatory anti-Islamic video and the nation where it was produced, the United States.
Angry protesters in the Sadr City district of northeast Baghdad carried banners, Iraqi flags and images of radical Shiite and anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr as they railed against what they see as an insult to their faith.
"America is the enemy of the people," the demonstrators shouted Thursday morning. They also yelled out, "Yes, yes to Islam. Yes, yes to Iraq. Yes, yes to Quran" -- the latter referring to the Muslim holy book.
Some protesters burned an American flag, while another put a U.S. flag on the ground and stepped on it to express his anger. Sabbar al-Saeidi, a member of Baghdad's provincial council, condemned the "Innocence of Muslims" film and called for the closing of U.S. embassies in all Arab and predominantly Muslim countries.
"Since (Americans) did not respect more than 1 billion Muslims all over the world, I call on all Muslim and Arab countries to launch an economic and diplomatic boycott of America and its agents," said one protester, Abbass Qahtan.
Sounds to me like a diplomatic Protest similar to what occurs in this country. However, I am sure they did not deficate in the street.
31 million people in Iraq, and only Hundreds took to the street.
Yea, nothing like a few car bombs to voice your opinion on democracy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/world/middleeast/insurgents-carry-out-wave-of-attacks-across-iraq.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/02/iraq-violence_n_1734910.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/03/iraq-violence_n_1645326.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18950706
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-09-09/middleeast/world_meast_iraq-violence_1_car-bomb-sadr-city-iraqi-********-ministry
http://topics.cnn.com/topics/iraq

 

[darthtang aw]

Did you read the stories?
Now, if bombings and such are a sign that a country and it's people do not want a democracy, then we can add isreal to that list. Isreal year to date has had over 80- days of a bombing, rocket launch attack or similar form of explosive action. So I guess the Isreali people don't want Democracy either.
The Iraqi people as a whole want democracy. Those that used the democratic process of protesting against the U.S. did it peacefully.

 

[geoj]

The people of South Korea, Japan, Philippines, France, Germany, Poland, United Kingdom, Italy, Guam, Mexico, Iraq and many more were?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492708
Did you read the stories?
Now, if bombings and such are a sign that a country and it's people do not want a democracy, then we can add isreal to that list. Isreal year to date has had over 80- days of a bombing, rocket launch attack or similar form of explosive action. So I guess the Isreali people don't want Democracy either.
The Iraqi people as a whole want democracy. Those that used the democratic process of protesting against the U.S. did it peacefully.
Um, like if they didn't want democracy, and weren't to some extent succeeding at it there would be no need for the bombings, the nutjobs would be winning.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492716
Um, like if they didn't want democracy, and weren't to some extent succeeding at it there would be no need for the bombings, the nutjobs would be winning.
Those bombings have nothing to do with democracy. It's the Sunnis, Kurds, and whatever other group over there trying to take the region back. These are radical religious factions, not some political party like the Tea Party. Their way of "debating" is by brute force and military-style attacks. You and Darth want to try and sugarcoat this into thinking that Bagdhad will be the next Mayberry RFD in the next few years. There will never be peace in that country or region. They've been fighting one another for thousands of years, and will continue to do so no matter what democratic process is in place. They can enact all the laws they want by a popular vote. They can elect whatever figurehead they want into whatever positions they define. But the fact remains that there's still an overall majority of individuals in that country that don't believe in democracy that will do everything in their power to make sure that there's enough instability in that region to allow that group to fully control the entire country.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492779
Those bombings have nothing to do with democracy. It's the Sunnis, Kurds, and whatever other group over there trying to take the region back. These are radical religious factions, not some political party like the Tea Party. Their way of "debating" is by brute force and military-style attacks. You and Darth want to try and sugarcoat this into thinking that Bagdhad will be the next Mayberry RFD in the next few years. There will never be peace in that country or region. They've been fighting one another for thousands of years, and will continue to do so no matter what democratic process is in place. They can enact all the laws they want by a popular vote. They can elect whatever figurehead they want into whatever positions they define. But the fact remains that there's still an overall majority of individuals in that country that don't believe in democracy that will do everything in their power to make sure that there's enough instability in that region to allow that group to fully control the entire country.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Democracy you boob LOL! The religious nutjobs can't hold absolute power in a Democratic society.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492780
It has EVERYTHING to do with Democracy you boob LOL! The religious nutjobs can't hold absolute power in a Democratic society.
The "nutjobs" don't need to have absolute power to disrupt and take control of certain regions of that country. Democracy is only working in the major cities. You get outside of those areas, and the various religious factions still control the purse strings. This new Iraqi Military has already been found to have corruption. Again, as soon as the US completely pulls out of that region, I'd give it 5 years before "democracy" goes down the drain.

 

[darthtang aw]

KKK. Had control of entire regions in our own country and corrupted the political process. How are the that much different?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492812
The "nutjobs" don't need to have absolute power to disrupt and take control of certain regions of that country. Democracy is only working in the major cities. You get outside of those areas, and the various religious factions still control the purse strings. This new Iraqi Military has already been found to have corruption. Again, as soon as the US completely pulls out of that region, I'd give it 5 years before "democracy" goes down the drain.
If democracy works in major cities it will at somepoint spread to the rural areas. I really think Iraq is going to work out.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492849
If democracy works in major cities it will at somepoint spread to the rural areas. I really think Iraq is going to work out.
Hey, I hope it does too. If that's what it takes to get some sort of normalcy and peace in that region, I'm all for it. All I'm saying is history has shown that there's too many religious fanatics that will do everything in their power to keep the democratic process in place. I suppose you can call it a success if there's only one or two car bombings a month, as opposed to one or two a week.

 

[mantisman51]

Iran will keep sending in the heavily armed militias and suicide bombers and Iraq will never be at peace. Iran fears a stable Iraq more than the U.S. It is in their interest to foment the antagonism between the Sunni and Shiah. I was for going into Iraq before I was against it. So, I guess John Kerry and I have some common ground.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492906
Hey, I hope it does too. If that's what it takes to get some sort of normalcy and peace in that region, I'm all for it. All I'm saying is history has shown that there's too many religious fanatics that will do everything in their power to keep the democratic process in place. I suppose you can call it a success if there's only one or two car bombings a month, as opposed to one or two a week.
I'll tell you something else. If Iraq starts looking like it's going to work the Iranian government is in big trouble because all of their younger population is very pro west but not pro USA. It isn't going to take much for the Iranian people to rise up against the old men in the black robes.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3492920
Iran will keep sending in the heavily armed militias and suicide bombers and Iraq will never be at peace. Iran fears a stable Iraq more than the U.S. It is in their interest to foment the antagonism between the Sunni and Shiah. I was for going into Iraq before I was against it. So, I guess John Kerry and I have some common ground.
Iran is going to run out of money before too long, they wont be able to afford to keep providing munitions and help.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Iran is going to run out of money before too long, they wont be able to afford to keep providing munitions and help.
What makes you think so?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/20#post_3493038
What makes you think so?
The sanctions against them. They export two things. Oil and terrorism. It's gotten hard for them to sell oil and I am sure most of it is at a discount because it's black market under the sanctions. With what hey have to spend on their nuke program they aren't going to have a whole lot left over to spend on anything else

 

[darthtang aw]

What makes you think so?
Iran is only pumping about 3 million barrels of oil a day. This is down considerably to previous years. In fact it is the lowest it has been in almost 3 decades. Oil is a significant portion of their governments income. Their budget of 450 billion can not be sustained through these sanctions and the low demand for Iranian oil .Something will give.............