Can we get out of the Middle East, plez!

[bang guy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/40#post_3493220
I think student progress should be the main weighting but Admin should have a voice.
All things being equal, sure. The only problem I have with that is that progress is mostly dependent on parenting. The school system is just a tool provided to parents by the community to help them prepare their children for productive life.
Here's a thought. If a student drops out then bill the parents for the cost of education up to that point. If the kid fails, bill the parents for the lost year. Maybe they'll start to show some interest in their kids education.
Truthfully, I agree with you in principle. But start small and build on it. There's a better chance of success over an entire revamping.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493281
All things being equal, sure. The only problem I have with that is that progress is mostly dependent on parenting. The school system is just a tool provided to parents by the community to help them prepare their children for productive life.
Here's a thought. If a student drops out then bill the parents for the cost of education up to that point. If the kid fails, bill the parents for the lost year. Maybe they'll start to show some interest in their kids education.
Truthfully, I agree with you in principle. But start small and build on it. There's a better chance of success over an entire revamping.
Here in San Antonio, I'm already paying for my kids public education, and will continue to pay for other kids education when mine is done (which will be this year!

) Two-thirds of my home property taxes goes to my local school district. That's where they get the majority of their funding. As long as I live in the district, I will continue to pay those taxes regardless if I have a kid in the system.
Parents need to be involved 100% with their child's education. However, the school system must provide some sort of motivation to keep those kids interested, inspired, and intrigued to the point they enjoy school and thirst for the knowledge provided by that environment. I can't count the number of times my kids came home from school, and I said "How was school today" and "do you have any homework that you need help with." Their response? "Boring. We spend most of our time going over stupid TAKS tests." or "Same thing we did last week." Homework? "Yea, I have two TAKS study sheets." Not until high school did they actually have what I considered constructive homework.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493281
All things being equal, sure. The only problem I have with that is that progress is mostly dependent on parenting. The school system is just a tool provided to parents by the community to help them prepare their children for productive life.
Here's a thought. If a student drops out then bill the parents for the cost of education up to that point. If the kid fails, bill the parents for the lost year. Maybe they'll start to show some interest in their kids education.
Truthfully, I agree with you in principle. But start small and build on it. There's a better chance of success over an entire revamping.
Even without parent involvement a student will gain if the teacher is doing their job. As part of the evaluation you could also look at a students past record. If you consider that you are judging the teacher by the progress of a group of students in light of past performance I think it would be perfectly fair.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493287
Here in San Antonio, I'm already paying for my kids public education, and will continue to pay for other kids education when mine is done (which will be this year!

) Two-thirds of my home property taxes goes to my local school district. That's where they get the majority of their funding. As long as I live in the district, I will continue to pay those taxes regardless if I have a kid in the system.
Parents need to be involved 100% with their child's education. However, the school system must provide some sort of motivation to keep those kids interested, inspired, and intrigued to the point they enjoy school and thirst for the knowledge provided by that environment. I can't count the number of times my kids came home from school, and I said "How was school today" and "do you have any homework that you need help with." Their response? "Boring. We spend most of our time going over stupid TAKS tests." or "Same thing we did last week." Homework? "Yea, I have two TAKS study sheets." Not until high school did they actually have what I considered constructive homework.
a district in Californya made the mistake of tying school funding to test results. Epic cheating scandal on the part of the teachers.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493305
a district in Californya made the mistake of tying school funding to test results. Epic cheating scandal on the part of the teachers.
That's been done in Texas as well. The percentage of funding received by the state for my daughter's school is based on TAKS test results. The teacher's call it "trickle down philosophy, or s$%^%# rolls downhill logic." The State tells the school district what test scores they expect, the school district relays that to the respective school administrators, then the Principle's mandate to the teachers that 60% of their job performance and reviews are determined by test results. If you're job and livlihood depended on Little Johnny who has the mental capacity of a pea passing some state-mandated test, what would you do?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493323
That's been done in Texas as well. The percentage of funding received by the state for my daughter's school is based on TAKS test results. The teacher's call it "trickle down philosophy, or s$%^%# rolls downhill logic." The State tells the school district what test scores they expect, the school district relays that to the respective school administrators, then the Principle's mandate to the teachers that 60% of their job performance and reviews are determined by test results. If you're job and livlihood depended on Little Johnny who has the mental capacity of a pea passing some state-mandated test, what would you do?
I'd do my job but that's just me....

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493326
I'd do my job but that's just me....
That's the problem. Teachers can't do the job that they trained and studied for 4-6 years to do. There's no teaching class called "How to teach standardized tests to the mentally challeged." Maybe if the schools would allow teachers to actually instruct their students by using techniques that wers successful 10 - 20 yaers ago, they wouldn't have to resort to fudging test numbers, or helping someone pass a test just so they can keep their jobs.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493343
That's the problem. Teachers can't do the job that they trained and studied for 4-6 years to do. There's no teaching class called "How to teach standardized tests to the mentally challeged." Maybe if the schools would allow teachers to actually instruct their students by using techniques that wers successful 10 - 20 yaers ago, they wouldn't have to resort to fudging test numbers, or helping someone pass a test just so they can keep their jobs.
There's nothing to prevent them from using the old methods. Teaching the test is a lazy method. I know a couple teachers who had no trouble having their students meet the goals and it wasn't like they were teaching in an area where the kids had a lot of advantages.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493379
There's nothing to prevent them from using the old methods. Teaching the test is a lazy method. I know a couple teachers who had no trouble having their students meet the goals and it wasn't like they were teaching in an area where the kids had a lot of advantages.
You obviously haven't been in some of these school classes lately. In the elementary and middle school levels around here, teachers don't have the time to teach traditional methods. If the teacghings don't somehow apply or cover topics directly on these state-mandated tests, they don't get taught.

 

[darthtang aw]

You obviously haven't been in some of these school classes lately.  In the elementary and middle school levels around here, teachers don't have the time to teach traditional methods.  If the teacghings don't somehow apply or cover topics directly on these state-mandated tests, they don't get taught.
Explain why I was doing multiplication and division by the end of first grade and my current children did not recieve these instructuions till mid third grade? It has nothing to do with SBA testing.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493382
You obviously haven't been in some of these school classes lately. In the elementary and middle school levels around here, teachers don't have the time to teach traditional methods. If the teacghings don't somehow apply or cover topics directly on these state-mandated tests, they don't get taught.
Just saw my 2nd grade class picture a few months ago. 26 kids. My teacher had time to teach us all. I don't buy they don't have time.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493384
Explain why I was doing multiplication and division by the end of first grade and my current children did not recieve these instructuions till mid third grade? It has nothing to do with SBA testing.
Don't know about your state testing requirements, but in Texas, they don't start the STAAR test (this replaced TAKS) until the 3rd grade.
How this relates to you and reef and your elementary school experience is beyond me. No Child Left Behind was implemented by Dubya Bush. That's the federal intiative that started all these current state-mandated tests. You may have taken some form of standardized test when you were in school, but they were nothing more than a assessment of what your learned. The tests today do that, but the difference is if you don't pass whatever tests are mandated for your specific grade, you will not be promoted to the next grade. If the High School kids now don't pass some 15 different tests during their 4-year term, they don't graduate or get their diploma, even if they had straight A's in all their classes.

 

[darthtang aw]

Don't know about your state testing requirements, but in Texas, they don't start the STAAR test (this replaced TAKS) until the 3rd grade. 
How this relates to you and reef and your elementary school experience is beyond me.  No Child Left Behind was implemented by Dubya Bush.  That's the federal intiative that started all these current state-mandated tests.  You may have taken some form of standardized test when you were in school, but they were nothing more than a assessment of what your learned.  The tests today do that, but the difference is if you don't pass whatever tests are mandated for your specific grade, you will not be promoted to the next grade.  If the High School kids now don't pass some 15 different tests during their 4-year term, they don't graduate or get their diploma, even if they had straight A's in all their classes.
They dont start testing till third grade. Your argument is they have to teach to the test. My point is, what they are testing for I was learning a couple grades earlier already.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493400
They dont start testing till third grade. Your argument is they have to teach to the test. My point is, what they are testing for I was learning a couple grades earlier already.
Always with semantics. In theory, yes they do teach the fundamentals in 1st and 2nd grade, and those basics should assist them with the 3rd grade test. Regardless if you were taught that information the first two years, the majority of learning in 3rd is what will be on the state-mandated test. If you already knew it, you'd most likely be bored the entire 3rd grade. Most public schols these days don't "look ahead", and start teaching what will be required for the next grade. Once the kids hit midle school, they are afforded the opportunity to take Advanced Placement classes which do cover topics in higher grades.
See if your 2nd grader can take this test:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=17&cad=rja&ved=0CFkQFjAGOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tea.state.tx.us%2FWorkArea%2Flinkit.aspx%3FLinkIdentifier%3Did%26ItemID%3D2147503437%26libID%3D2147503431&ei=C5dbULD2FdOK2QXhj4DIDQ&usg=AFQjCNH3wLY8JdhUk7e8R_avZSvZULDXOw&sig2=4QUM6t8TCpqyU4F_wT1RRQ

 

[darthtang aw]

Always with semantics.  In theory, yes they do teach the fundamentals in 1st and 2nd grade, and those basics should assist them with the 3rd grade test.  Regardless if you were taught that information the first two years, the majority of learning in 3rd is what will be on the state-mandated test.  If you already knew it, you'd most likely be bored the entire 3rd grade.  Most public schols these days don't "look ahead", and start teaching what will be required for the next grade.  Once the kids hit midle school, they are afforded the opportunity to take Advanced Placement classes which do cover topics in higher grades.
See if your 2nd grader can take this test:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=17&cad=rja&ved=0CFkQFjAGOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tea.state.tx.us%2FWorkArea%2Flinkit.aspx%3FLinkIdentifier%3Did%26ItemID%3D2147503437%26libID%3D2147503431&ei=C5dbULD2FdOK2QXhj4DIDQ&usg=AFQjCNH3wLY8JdhUk7e8R_avZSvZULDXOw&sig2=4QUM6t8TCpqyU4F_wT1RRQ
You still miss the point.
The point is Most of us were ahead of this test when we were taught...By 4 th grade I had moved on to more complicated math. The point is, the teachers are NOT teaching at the levels we were taught. Why? Ignore the testing equation. If no testing is done till third grade, why spend a whole year on addition then a whole year on subtraction? Should the teachers not be teaching multiplication and division in 2nd grade if it was taught then when I was a child? Nothing has changed has it?
Are our children dumber than we were. That is what is implied.......

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493394
Don't know about your state testing requirements, but in Texas, they don't start the STAAR test (this replaced TAKS) until the 3rd grade.
How this relates to you and reef and your elementary school experience is beyond me. No Child Left Behind was implemented by Dubya Bush. That's the federal intiative that started all these current state-mandated tests. You may have taken some form of standardized test when you were in school, but they were nothing more than a assessment of what your learned. The tests today do that, but the difference is if you don't pass whatever tests are mandated for your specific grade, you will not be promoted to the next grade. If the High School kids now don't pass some 15 different tests during their 4-year term, they don't graduate or get their diploma, even if they had straight A's in all their classes.
Point is we learned just fine. I don't know exactly what's on those tests now but I am sure you, me or Darth would have easily passed them in our day. I only remember this because I wasn't a good student so I remember this because the teachers and my parents were flabbergasted. In 4th grade we were tested. I don't remember the other scores but my reading level was beyond 10th grade. It was weird because I really didn't read all that much.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493408
You still miss the point.
The point is Most of us were ahead of this test when we were taught...By 4 th grade I had moved on to more complicated math. The point is, the teachers are NOT teaching at the levels we were taught. Why? Ignore the testing equation. If no testing is done till third grade, why spend a whole year on addition then a whole year on subtraction? Should the teachers not be teaching multiplication and division in 2nd grade if it was taught then when I was a child? Nothing has changed has it?
Are our children dumber than we were. That is what is implied.......
Our children are dumber because the system made them that way. Don't blame the teachers. Blame the administration that controls what the teachers teach. They determine what curriculum is taught, at what level it is taught, and what grade levels learn what. When my daughters were in middle school and high school, they'd get issued textbooks relevent to each subject. They'd bring those books home and drop them in their rooms where they stayed the entire year. The school didn't use them. Instead, they'd work on photocopied handouts of whatever they were learning, which in most cases was whatever was going to be on the upcoming TAKS test. They did veer off the norm every once in a while, but it was more of an exception than the rule. The only way they got out of the 'cycle' was by taking AP classes that actually did 'go out of the box'. Want smarter kids? Private schools.

 

[bang guy]

Blame the parents that attack teachers when students cheat. Blame the parents when they attack teachers for not "giving" a good grade.
People, children are the responsibility of their parents. Teachers and the school system are only there to help, they are NOT provided to raise your kids. You raise the kids. If the school doesn't go far enough then YOU go the extra mile. It's YOUR job.
Just Do It!

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493421
Blame the parents that attack teachers when students cheat. Blame the parents when they attack teachers for not "giving" a good grade.
People, children are the responsibility of their parents. Teachers and the school system are only there to help, they are NOT provided to raise your kids. You raise the kids. If the school doesn't go far enough then YOU go the extra mile. It's YOUR job.
Just Do It!
Those incidents are a rarity. Of course parents are responsible for their children. The "problem children" are those that come from lower-income or single parent families. These are the kids you see running around the streets at 2AM on a school night. The single parents have little control when they are concentrating working low-paying jobs and trying to keep food on the table. Now not all single parents have problems. Those with middle-to-high incomes have a history of having very responsible and successful klids. It depends on the environment they were raised. My younger daughter has a friend who is 17 that lost her mother to cancer two years ago. The father disappeared, and this girl took control of all the finaces, including maintaining the home she's lived in for the last 15 years. The only family she has locally is her 22 year old sister. For about a year, she was living in her house alone, with a state-approved guardian helping her with finances. She works a part time job at Baskin Robbins, and still takes AP courses and maintains a straight-A average in school. The moral of the story is not all kids have to have the support of their parents. It's the support of friends, the community, and in this girl's case, her teachers that encouraged and inspired her to fight through the adversities and make something successful out of her life.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/392941/can-we-get-out-of-the-middle-east-plez/60#post_3493421
Blame the parents that attack teachers when students cheat. Blame the parents when they attack teachers for not "giving" a good grade.
People, children are the responsibility of their parents. Teachers and the school system are only there to help, they are NOT provided to raise your kids. You raise the kids. If the school doesn't go far enough then YOU go the extra mile. It's YOUR job.
Just Do It!
And how many of our education resources are directed at exactly that, being a daycare? It's absurd. Another thing that has devoured a large part of education funding is mainstreaming disabled kids. A lot of those kids require a full time para educator just for them. That skews our dollars spent on education figures. I don't know how some of the countries we are compared with on education spending do it but I am pretty sure not all of them go to the lengths we do to place handicapped kids in public school.