coral reefs take millions of years to grow

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
Who is to be judge? You can say, let the bible be judge, but if you do that, you can legally sell your daughter into slavery, kill a girl who was raped but didn't call for help, and even sacrifice your children to god if you wanted.
It kind of makes me laugh how most christians don't even really read the bible, if they did, they just might not be christians anymore...

.
The points you referenced all took place in the Old Testament. The minute Jesus Christ started preaching everything followed in the Old Testament is thrown out according to him. The New testament is what matters and what is to be followed, and the Old testament is the history.
I am by know means religious or even a practicing Christian. But in my spare time I study and learn all religions. I have read the bible numerous times. Anyone with even the slightest understanding of it knows the Old Testament in the Christian faiths is nothing but history for them.
I am beginning to wonder just how well you understood what you read numerous times.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
Ok, I couldn't resist getting in on this one.
First of all, at least after reading the first three pages I didn't see one source cited by a creationist besides creationist websites. You people just read stuff and repost it here and formulate your opinions based on the opinions of others.
Oh, I see with your links you are guilty of the exact same thing.

 

[kablamo]

Not true, not true, not true.
Jesus came not to replace the law but to fulfill it.
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

 

[kablamo]

No, only the simple one for simple evolutionists who want to argue. The official link is from a scientific journal.

 

[kablamo]

I'm kind of surprised the mods haven't locked this forum yet! Anyway, if we keep it cool we can keep going, i'm having a blast!

 

[fishnet]

I've tried my hardest to ignore this thread for all the reasons that many of you have made so evident. Indeed, thoughts and beliefs on this topic are deeply felt and rarely changed by someones diatribe. With that said, I'll echo the sentiments of ophuria and merely state that this thread has been a discouraging display of the understanding of both science and faith.
The frustrations of WillCon are understandable when you fully grasp the body of evidence for the age of the earth. Please, before debating these items and repeating hearsay, educate yourself. Learn to segregate the issues [evidence for earth age vs evidence for modifications in biological structures]. Take the time to carefully consider the various positions and the "evidence" they present. Here are a few topics you can research:
1. our ability to see galaxies, stars and planets and the speed of light
2. plate tectonics, magnetic pole reversals, and seafloor spreading
3. radioactive decay (as WillCon was trying to explain)
4. depositional stratigraphy and geometry of sedimentary basins (including ancient reefs -- like the one under greater Chicago [look up Thornton quarry -- that huge hole in the ground you drive over on I-80] !)
Please recognize that none of the above have ANYTHING to do with life. I chose them specifically for that reason to decouple the argument from evolution. Further realize that these lines of evidence are mutually exclusive and deal with various scientific disciplines, including astronomy and astrophysics, geophysics, chemistry, and geology. Certainly you will find web sites using anectodal evidence to "disprove" the predominant scientific thinking (akin to the original post). Again, consider the body of evidence as a whole.
You should also be careful about the implications of the rejection of the scientific evidence presented in the above list. Choosing not to believe the constancy of radioactive decay may have bearing on your willingness to be subjected to a lower GI to detect your colon cancer. Furthermore, I suggest that you might want to put your microwave oven at the curb next trash day if the speed of light fluctuates.
Finally, the notion that "no one knows anything, so anything can be true" is not only a fallacy, but in fact, no one believes it. If no one has the ability to know anything, then why try to educate anyone ever? Think about that belief next time your doctor tells you that you need a prescription for what they say is an infection. Do you think he or she knows anything or are they just making it up? How could they possibly know what the green ooze emanating from your cut is... they've never seen your wound before.

 

[caomt]

i want to ask everyone a question. i am a catholic but i want to know why everyone believes in god? is it only because you dont want to be tortured in the next life?

 

[willcon]

any religous topic should include Edgar Cayce thank you.

 

[willcon]

well put fishnet
dont let your beliefs cloud your judgement.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
The points you referenced all took place in the Old Testament. The minute Jesus Christ started preaching everything followed in the Old Testament is thrown out according to him. The New testament is what matters and what is to be followed, and the Old testament is the history.
I am by know means religious or even a practicing Christian. But in my spare time I study and learn all religions. I have read the bible numerous times. Anyone with even the slightest understanding of it knows the Old Testament in the Christian faiths is nothing but history for them.
I am beginning to wonder just how well you understood what you read numerous times.
Darth Tang is mostly correct. Kablamo, you have many misunderstandings of the Bible. And of Christianity I'm sorry to say. Now you could say that the old testament is basically the history behind Christianity, but it's more than that. The old testament ultimately points to the coming of a savior. That savior is realized in Jesus. The ceremonial laws such as eating only "clean" foods are no longer valid. But other sins still stand. And they are reiterated in the new testament. Those are the "rules" for the church that you are asking for Kablamo. Most of the new testament is a description of how the church should act.
Most quirks in most religious sects of Christianity have a reason which is usually either to prevent people from being tempted to sin (the reason why southern baptists are typically against drinking for example), or to follow traditions which may or may not be an attempt to resist sin. Many of the traditions are human in nature and some are even unbiblical IMO.
Jesus church consists of those who believe he is the Christ and died for our sins. That is the most important part of Christianity. There are other important parts such as the acknowledgement of the Trinity. These traditions and behaviors that individual sects of Christianity take on are typically very much secondary issues and personal preferences.
Non-Christians tend to think that if there is a God and he has control over everything then why doesn't he force the people of the Church to follow His will perfectly and why doesn't he force the world to be peaceful. He does not force anything on anyone because we those who follow him would be slaves and not His children and could not really love Him. It is our free will that causes us to sin and that is where unbiblical traditions can appear even in a Christian church. Christians DO NOT believe they are perfect or will attain perfection on earth. That is entirely unbiblical and it is likely that if someone actually thinks that they are probably not really Christians. It is also our free will that prevents peace.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
Not true, not true, not true.
Jesus came not to replace the law but to fulfill it.
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
You are mostly correct. But ceremonial laws no longer apply and Jesus said this himself.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
Why do you say the Old Testament laws were vicious? Punishment for sin too harsh? There is nothing unfair about it because it is well known what the law is and what the punishment is. From a Christian perspective you must understand that death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person. Death without knowing Jesus is because that means eternal damnation. BTW, except for the ceremonial laws, the Old Testament laws still apply in as much as the sins they represent are still sins. The punishments are no longer necessary though. I hope that you do not believe that there is a single sin that will cause you to go to hell while you believe in Christ. If you believe in Christ (truely believe, not been saved through baptism and never thought of Him again, that shows there was no real belief) then you will go to heaven.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
Both of these are actually referring to the same conversation (You probably know that, but just making sure). If you continue through this passage Jesus is not criticizing the Jews for not killing their children. He is talking about the Jews nullifying the word of God through their traditions and he says that in Mark 7:13. He criticizes that the Jews find it wrong for a person to eat with unclean hands. But make excuses for children who have cursed their parents. They are therefore being hypocrites, as Jesus proclaimed (Matthew 15:7).
This shows a lack of reading the Bible in all it's context and for all it's worth. If you really put all your effort into attempting to find things in the Bible that would discredit the Bible and honestly take it ALL in context and for what it's worth (realize that there are many metaphors and hyperbole) then you will come to know that the Bible cannot be discredited. The only way to do so is to take things out of context.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
This is not suggesting that looking at a woman lustfully will cause you to go to hell. If you did this one time in your life (and I doubt anyone hasn't) and that's the only unbiblical thing you ever did you will not go to hell based on that. Jesus is saying that if you have a habit of doing this sin, cut off from you what it is that allows you to keep sinning. Habitual concious sin is a path that will lead you away from God and that is what ends you up in hell.
There are other cases in which a sin is talked about in the same manner. But it is the same situation, the habit of that sin will lead you to a place where you will no longer have a relationship with God. So the sin needs to be stopped as best the person can so that the sin does not overcome ones life. A believer is to be filled with the Holy Spirit, not the lust of another woman. We still have free will though so even those filled with the Spirit may slip up and will never fully rid themselves of sin.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35
As for your many attempts to prove that the Old Testament still applies, you are correct. Just as long as you realize that Jesus is better than the Law. The two great commandments of the New Testament are to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor.

 

[kablamo]

Originally Posted by caomt
i want to ask everyone a question. i am a catholic but i want to know why everyone believes in god? is it only because you dont want to be tortured in the next life?
This answer is only aimed toward you, and I don't want to debate this, so i'm not going to, but that's why I don't believe in the god of the bible. He is our heavenly father, he is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Knowing full well everything that we will ever do, god gave us free will and will punish us for breaking his law using the free will that he gave us. Humans are utterly stupid to anything higher than the physical level (as far as the true nature of god, the real consequences, if any, of our actions) and so are like babies, god's literal children. God puts us outside to play in the yard, tells us not to go into the street knowing full well we are not old enough to talk yet and cannot understand, watches from the window as we wander aimlessly and stupidly into the street and doesn't try to stop us. Watches us get hit by cars that he created, and then disowns us for being such bad children.
Any parent who does to his children what god has done (according to the buy bull) would get reported to DHS and arrested for neglect and child abuse.
Once again, I don't want to talk further about this and nothing can change my mind in any way shape or form, so don't even try, it can't be done.
But this is why i don't believe.

 

[kablamo]

COPY AND PASTE HERE i didn't write these or gather them, someone asked for verses regarding what true christians could do.
::taken from exchristian.net::
Descriptions and signs of the true believer that Jesus himself set down.
Super Powers- Matt 10:1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.
and Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Can Handle Snakes And Drink Poison- Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Can Walk Over Scorpions- Luke 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.
Must not Fornicate- 1st Corinthians 7:1-40 (Editors note: This is very long so I leave it to the reader to check it out!)
Must Hate Their Family- Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Does Their Family Hate Them?- Matt 10:21-22 Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Are Perfect- Matt 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Keep Women Silent- 1st Timothy 2:11-12 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
Can Bend The Will Of God- Matt 18:19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
Can Move Mountains- Matt 17:20 He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move hence to yonder place,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."
Can Wither Figs- Matt 21:19-22 And seeing a fig tree by the wayside he went to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once. When the disciples saw it they marvelled, saying, "How did the fig tree wither at once?" And Jesus answered them, "Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and never doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will be done. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith."
The Bible tells us that a true Christian is a snake handling, scorpion treading, fig withering, disease curing, mountain moving, poison drinking, God commanding, family hating, woman shushing, --- abstaining and morally perfect as God.
There are many different types of Christians, many sects and denominations. In their pride and arrogance they all claim to be true believers. But it is important to make sure that we have the real thing because Jesus said that there would be many fakers.
In the following passages in the Bible Matt 7:15, Matt 24:23-24, Matt 7:22-23 and 1st John 4:1 Jesus tells us about false prophets, false Christians. When dealing with Christians ask them if they are 'true' Christians. If the answer is 'yes' then chuck them a taipan and stick a few scorpions in their shoes.
::end::
I haven't looked these up yet, but someone wanted the verses, so here they are, with commentary by the author of the article.

 

[kablamo]

Ok i have decided I am null and void from now on on this topic in this thread, it is too off topic, this is supposed to be about the age of coral reefs.
If you want to talk bible theology, go to **********
make a name and come talk to me in the on topic forum.
In fact, i will unsubscribe from this forum and never read it again. I don't want to get banned people, and i'm sure we are getting really close to being banned, or at LEAST getting this thread locked.
PS, the name on the other forum is danobodhisattvah

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
This answer is only aimed toward you, and I don't want to debate this, so i'm not going to, but that's why I don't believe in the god of the bible. He is our heavenly father, he is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Knowing full well everything that we will ever do, god gave us free will and will punish us for breaking his law using the free will that he gave us. Humans are utterly stupid to anything higher than the physical level (as far as the true nature of god, the real consequences, if any, of our actions) and so are like babies, god's literal children. God puts us outside to play in the yard, tells us not to go into the street knowing full well we are not old enough to talk yet and cannot understand, watches from the window as we wander aimlessly and stupidly into the street and doesn't try to stop us. Watches us get hit by cars that he created, and then disowns us for being such bad children.
Any parent who does to his children what god has done (according to the buy bull) would get reported to DHS and arrested for neglect and child abuse.
Once again, I don't want to talk further about this and nothing can change my mind in any way shape or form, so don't even try, it can't be done.
But this is why i don't believe.

I realize you say you don't want to talk about this part so if you don't want to continue it's OK. But you did respond so I am going to comment as I am enjoying this discussion with you.
Think of the Heavenly Father as an earthly father for a moment. Or if you are a father (or mother) think of it from a parents point of view. A father probably loves his child (let's assume this father does since God does). That father hopes that the love is returned. That love could not be returned without free will. If the earthly father could program the child or turn the child into a robot of some sort then any love that is shown is not a true love, but an illusion. It is the same with The Heavenly Father. And free will means that He can't get involved in altering anothers will EVER.
Now if the child does not love the father, then it is that childs choice to do what he wants. If the father is God, then the child is chosing not to love God. God is not "disowning" that child by not allowing the child into heaven. God is giving that child what he/she wants. Hell is eternity away from God. That is what the child wants and that is what that child would get. You apparently are an example of such a child by your own admission, and that is fine as it is your life and you may do with it what you wish. Now after living a life defying and denying God's existence, when you die let's assume for a second that it turns out God is real and you discover this upon your death. Since you do not love God, don't you want to be away from Him? Why would He drag you kicking and screaming into a relationship you don't want? That, my friend is true love. It will break His heart if you do not love Him back, but He will never force you to do so.
Christ said "there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine who do not need to" (Luke 15:7).

 

[kablamo]

********
I will talk about it here, the name is danobodhisattvah
edit:i see you are way ahead of me

 

[jdragunas]

ok, i didn't feel like reading all of the crap in between my last post and now, so if this has already been said, please disregard me.
Kablamo, you're right, there is no proven fact that creationism is correct, and that's what's so great about me is that i believe that without proof. you, however, have to have that physical evidence in order to believe something.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
ok, i didn't feel like reading all of the crap in between my last post and now, so if this has already been said, please disregard me.
Kablamo, you're right, there is no proven fact that creationism is correct, and that's what's so great about me is that i believe that without proof. you, however, have to have that physical evidence in order to believe something.
Kablamo has decided to move his/her part of this discussion to another message board which is pointed out in one of his/her posts above. They are afraid of getting banned for their part in this thread. I really doubt anyone is at risk of being banned at this point. This is just an intelligent conversation and nobody (or few if any) have acted ignorantly.
I agree with you though jdragunas, I don't have to lack belief until a living organism is created in a lab. As far as theories go, the "theory" that God created life is as valid (moreso IMO) as any. Someone pointed out earlier that science doesn't attempt to prove anything, just disprove things. God has yet to be disproven by science so why is the possibility of His existence not worth thinking about?

 

[caomt]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
This answer is only aimed toward you, and I don't want to debate this, so i'm not going to, but that's why I don't believe in the god of the bible. He is our heavenly father, he is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Knowing full well everything that we will ever do, god gave us free will and will punish us for breaking his law using the free will that he gave us. Humans are utterly stupid to anything higher than the physical level (as far as the true nature of god, the real consequences, if any, of our actions) and so are like babies, god's literal children. God puts us outside to play in the yard, tells us not to go into the street knowing full well we are not old enough to talk yet and cannot understand, watches from the window as we wander aimlessly and stupidly into the street and doesn't try to stop us. Watches us get hit by cars that he created, and then disowns us for being such bad children.
Any parent who does to his children what god has done (according to the buy bull) would get reported to DHS and arrested for neglect and child abuse.
Once again, I don't want to talk further about this and nothing can change my mind in any way shape or form, so don't even try, it can't be done.
But this is why i don't believe.

that is what i am saying.. are we only beleiving in him because we fear things .. if he loved us he wouldnt let harm come to us