coral reefs take millions of years to grow

[caomt]

Originally Posted by hagfish
I realize you say you don't want to talk about this part so if you don't want to continue it's OK. But you did respond so I am going to comment as I am enjoying this discussion with you.
Think of the Heavenly Father as an earthly father for a moment. Or if you are a father (or mother) think of it from a parents point of view. A father probably loves his child (let's assume this father does since God does). That father hopes that the love is returned. That love could not be returned without free will. If the earthly father could program the child or turn the child into a robot of some sort then any love that is shown is not a true love, but an illusion. It is the same with The Heavenly Father. And free will means that He can't get involved in altering anothers will EVER.
Now if the child does not love the father, then it is that childs choice to do what he wants. If the father is God, then the child is chosing not to love God. God is not "disowning" that child by not allowing the child into heaven. God is giving that child what he/she wants. Hell is eternity away from God. That is what the child wants and that is what that child would get. You apparently are an example of such a child by your own admission, and that is fine as it is your life and you may do with it what you wish. Now after living a life defying and denying God's existence, when you die let's assume for a second that it turns out God is real and you discover this upon your death. Since you do not love God, don't you want to be away from Him? Why would He drag you kicking and screaming into a relationship you don't want? That, my friend is true love. It will break His heart if you do not love Him back, but He will never force you to do so.
Christ said "there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine who do not need to" (Luke 15:7).

i understand now..

 

[caomt]

guys dont be scared of being banned.. nobody is flaming at nobody we are all mature adults or young people discussing something in an off topic part of the forum.. the whole thing started out by my cousin discouring me to buy corals because he said they take millions of years to grow.i learned new things and still am learning in this post.. if you guys are really scared to express your freedom of thought i will ask an admin to come and check to see if everything is ok... anyone know how to get an admin?

 

[bang guy]

I won't close a thread unless there are abundant flames or excessive bickering. I haven't seen that here.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by caomt
that is what i am saying.. are we only beleiving in him because we fear things .. if he loved us he wouldnt let harm come to us
The Heavenly Father isn't really our "Father" unless we join His "Family" by accepting Christ as Lord anyway. So there is no abuse through neglect or anything like that. We all have our own choices to make. And the first bad choice was made with Adam & Eve. Otherwise we would have the heaven on earth that is being alluded to in a desire for no harm to ever come to us. We sin, and there are penalties for sin and that is what causes us harm.
Simple example, the sin of murder. Someone murder's someone, they go to prison (well usually they do) or maybe experience capital punishment. Even if they don't go to prison, they experience consequences of that murder. They might have to live life by "the sword" so to speak as David did in the Bible.
Another example is a lie. I have a brother-in-law that lies about all kinds of things. I've never seen anyone lie so much in my life. He doesn't think it hurts him or anyone else. But he is miserable, absolutely broke, and ill all the time among other things. And those who would be close to him in his family such as me and my wife just can't get too close anymore because it's so bad that he makes our relationship harder even (he lived with us for about 2 years while we tried to help). In a Christian world view (which I am in), at least some of that is punishment for his ceaseless sinning.

 

[psycho]

Well I guess that is why they say "NOBODY IS PURFECT"

 

[psycho]

Originally Posted by keleighr

[hr]
over time causes major birth defects. You have family members continually having children then it would show up in time and the more it is done the more birth defects.
There is a pride of lions that are dying out (they live in a volcano) due to all the birth defects from the lions being to closely related. So they are slowly introducing new lions from other prides so that this pride will continue on.

Ummmm......PROOF THAT NO ONE IS PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dugh!

 

[kablamo]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
ok, i didn't feel like reading all of the crap in between my last post and now, so if this has already been said, please disregard me.
Kablamo, you're right, there is no proven fact that creationism is correct, and that's what's so great about me is that i believe that without proof. you, however, have to have that physical evidence in order to believe something.
Seems like i have been assured enough to continue.
That's not great, by the way, that you can believe without proof.
It's not true that I have to have physical evicence in order to believe in something, my heart cannot allow me to believe in something that disagrees with my own reason and my own logic.
Someone tells me all about the bible,
"that sounds completely stupid" i say
"well you better believe in it anyway, or you go to hell"
"oh ok, now i believe in it"
NO.
Oh yeah, let's talk about heaven and hell for a few minutes.
Even if their was a soul, which there is no evidence for anyway,
What is promises are made about these two places?
Let's start with hell:
i've heard it called the "lake of fire"
a place of searing burning agony in which "the worm never dies"
We all know about it, so now let me say this.
If you are dead and you are just a soul, you DONT HAVE NERVES. it's as simple as that. These are all things that physical beings are afraid of, not eternal souls.
People will say, oh god is loving, then we say, if god is so loving then why does he send people to hell?
Christians then say, well god created hell for the devil and his angels, and since sin is not allowed into heaven, they have to go SOMEWHERE.
Then i say, well why does it have to be a place of torture? Why was it created so hot? If god is love, as I hear preached over and over and over again, why even would he condemn satan and his angels to such a place?
Heaven:
Heaven is MUCH worse than hell could ever be!
"Prostrate before thy throne to lie, and gaze, and gaze at thee." In other words it's an eternal church service. Children hear these hymns about heaven, and they are horrified?
Now I ask you this? Why are the streets made of gold? What purpose does that serve? Something THAT carnal and earthly and material is almost ALWAYS associated with heaven, as is the pearly gates, and the mansions and so on and so forth. These are physical human pleasures!
Now, if human pleasures are so important in heaven, why then, is there no ---? --- is chief among human pleasures, it is what humans enjoy the most. Of a church of four thousand, I knew not one member of the youth group that waited till marriage. Our associate pastor got in some trouble for cheating on his wife, a command almost impossible to keep sincerely. Any married man to whom a beautiful woman walked up to and propositioned could say no, i'm sorry i'm married, but in his heart and in his mind he would already be in her bed imagining every moment of the encounter (god, after all made him that way, and we all know how hard the mind is to control, try not to think about a green elephant and tell me how sucessful you are), and according to the bible, this is adultery, and this man is now on his way to hell and has cheated on his wife.
Doesn't this all seem a little cruel to you? I have no problem believing in the bible, if you allow for the fact that god is not nice, he is even mean sometimes, or that god is a child playing tricks, much like a child with a magnifying glass.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
Seems like i have been assured enough to continue.
That's not great, by the way, that you can believe without proof.
I shortened your quote so I could fit my text in.
Most of the descriptions of both heaven and hell are metaphors that are used so that we can relate them with things we are familiar with. This is a common mistake and I have mentioned it to you a few times. Heaven is really incomprehendible in human terms, so metaphors are used so that we can have an idea of how it will be. The same is done with Hell, but first and foremost Hell is eternity away from God. And while someone on that other board you took me too mentioned that takes away from God's omnipresence, that is being short sighted and is just not true. A non-believer is apart from God now in the same way, but God is there for him if he chooses to believe. But in hell, it is too late to make that choice as is pointed out in the story about Lazurus and the rich man.
Why do you think our punishments are cruel? How many times a day do you honestly sin against the commands of the Bible? I've probably sinned millions of times in my life. So what should we get for that if we don't allow Jesus to wipe our slate clean? A pat on the back and a nice house in hell with our friends who we'll have beers with and watch football? We defy God every day, even Christians do (at least most do, if not all). We don't deserve any kind of mercy AT ALL, but God gives it anyway if we ask.
If the sins we commit were against human law and you got just 30 days in prison for each one you'd be locked up for 30 million years assuming 1 mil. sins like I mentioned before. I wouldn't be surprised if the average person sins 10 million times in their life. Really, no # would surprise me unless it was actually low. Jesus, however was without sin. And again someone on that other board you took me to alluded to His crimes and that he deserved punishment. He was never convicted of any crime. Pilate could find no fault in him so he left them in the hands of the mob who chose to free the most wanted villian they had over Jesus whom they couldn't even place a crime on.

 

[darth tang]

No matter what your views on this topic I just want to congragulate everyone involved on keeping it intellectually stimulating and civil. I am thoroughly impressed and proud.

 

[caomt]

Originally Posted by hagfish
I shortened your quote so I could fit my text in.
Most of the descriptions of both heaven and hell are metaphors that are used so that we can relate them with things we are familiar with. This is a common mistake and I have mentioned it to you a few times. Heaven is really incomprehendible in human terms, so metaphors are used so that we can have an idea of how it will be. The same is done with Hell, but first and foremost Hell is eternity away from God. And while someone on that other board you took me too mentioned that takes away from God's omnipresence, that is being short sighted and is just not true. A non-believer is apart from God now in the same way, but God is there for him if he chooses to believe. But in hell, it is too late to make that choice as is pointed out in the story about Lazurus and the rich man.
Why do you think our punishments are cruel? How many times a day do you honestly sin against the commands of the Bible? I've probably sinned millions of times in my life. So what should we get for that if we don't allow Jesus to wipe our slate clean? A pat on the back and a nice house in hell with our friends who we'll have beers with and watch football? We defy God every day, even Christians do (at least most do, if not all). We don't deserve any kind of mercy AT ALL, but God gives it anyway if we ask.
If the sins we commit were against human law and you got just 30 days in prison for each one you'd be locked up for 30 million years assuming 1 mil. sins like I mentioned before. I wouldn't be surprised if the average person sins 10 million times in their life. Really, no # would surprise me unless it was actually low. Jesus, however was without sin. And again someone on that other board you took me to alluded to His crimes and that he deserved punishment. He was never convicted of any crime. Pilate could find no fault in him so he left them in the hands of the mob who chose to free the most wanted villian they had over Jesus whom they couldn't even place a crime on.

i grew up a catholic... went to sunday school.. got my first communion.. then i dont know i kinda lost it..i carry alot of small sins.. i cant ever seem to go to confession.. sometimes its in the church that makes you move away from god. the "church" brings a bad impression.. they are all about money .. and sometimes you j ust dont feel comfortable confessing with the priest they seem tot alk about things that were suppose to stay behidn the curtains.. thats another reason why its hard to confess.. you confessing to someone else other then god.. im pretty sure my soul would be very very very clean if i could sit down with god one on one and ask for forgivnesss.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by caomt
i grew up a catholic... went to sunday school.. got my first communion.. then i dont know i kinda lost it..i carry alot of small sins.. i cant ever seem to go to confession.. sometimes its in the church that makes you move away from god. the "church" brings a bad impression.. they are all about money .. and sometimes you j ust dont feel comfortable confessing with the priest they seem tot alk about things that were suppose to stay behidn the curtains.. thats another reason why its hard to confess.. you confessing to someone else other then god.. im pretty sure my soul would be very very very clean if i could sit down with god one on one and ask for forgivnesss.
My friend, I can totally understand all of that. I hope Catholics don't take this the wrong way, but these are common stumbling blocks that aren't necessary. Yes, Catholic churches have a tendency to be greedy with money. That is not to say that a Christian church shouldn't be entitled to the 10% tithe, and that should be given on the person's own free will. Now if the church is just not getting any tithes, then it is something that should be being talked about and the members would have to get over their greediness. I personally have never experienced pushy pastors (I'm southern baptist) when it comes to money. We've always trusted God to meet our needs and He always has.
As for going to confession, what I'm about to say is something that I hope you really take to heart. That priest can do NOTHING to forgive your sin. He is absolutely unneccesary and as you see can be a stumbling block on your path to the Lord. John 14:6 tells us that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and there is no way to the Father except through Him. That applies in many areas including asking forgiveness for sins. Just pray to Jesus for forgiveness and if you believe in Him it will be given. I pray for forgiveness of all my sins at least once a day.
Let me ask you this, if you don't like the way your church is doing things, why don't you go to another church? Maybe even another denomination? Find one that is Biblical (top priority) and one in which you can serve (not that can serve you, that's not what the church is there for, although it will serve you in return anyway). I have many family members who are Catholic and they know little or nothing of the Bible, but instead put their faith in self-declared "infallable" Popes and their decrees, which quite frankly are often unbiblical I'm sad to say. But these family members hold to what they've learned because it's "tradition" to do so. Tradition holds no power over eternity though.

 

[jdragunas]

i've never had a personal encounter with money problems at my church, and i don't have a problem giving money to support it. The church has to survive somehow, and since i am using it, i feel i should help support it. However, i have heard of catholic churches that talk about their money problems during the homily, and every other chance they get, and i completely agree that pushes people away from God. You just have to find the right church.
I also totally agree about confession... it's stupid and i won't take any part in it. Why do i have to confess my sins to someone else? Why can't i just talk to God on my own and have him forgive me? It makes no sense... I also think that the whole priests can't get married thing is really stupid. God gave women to men because they are lonely... why would a priest not want the natural thing in life, or why should they not have it? That's the way God intended it. They say that's because the priest is married to God, but i think that's a load of bullhockey... It's causing a shortage of priests in the catholic religion. i think that's the main turn off of becoming a priest, that they will not be able to experience the love and closeness with another person like it was intended... :notsure:

 

[caomt]

yeh it is kinda in tradition to go to the church since my grandpa use to be head of the churchs i dont know what you call it but hes in charge of everything that happens so there all in order.. now that my grandpa has retired from that my dad is helping the church now..i just might have to go to another church even though i havent been to church for almost a year...

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by caomt
yeh it is kinda in tradition to go to the church since my grandpa use to be head of the churchs i dont know what you call it but hes in charge of everything that happens so there all in order.. now that my grandpa has retired from that my dad is helping the church now..i just might have to go to another church even though i havent been to church for almost a year...
Well, if you're family is actually involved in running the church it might be best to try to change it from the inside. But if that seems too difficult, there are just more important things than tradition, and even family. They might be upset with you for leaving their church for a while, or maybe even for a long long time. But as long as you are going to a good Bible believing church that is practicing the way Jesus intended then you are doing what is right no matter what they say.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
I also think that the whole priests can't get married thing is really stupid. God gave women to men because they are lonely... why would a priest not want the natural thing in life, or why should they not have it? That's the way God intended it. They say that's because the priest is married to God, but i think that's a load of bullhockey... It's causing a shortage of priests in the catholic religion. i think that's the main turn off of becoming a priest, that they will not be able to experience the love and closeness with another person like it was intended... :notsure:
IMO, you are absolutely correct about this as well. I'm pretty sure that this is another subject that a pope declared as a rule long ago. It is not based in the bible and I think it is an incredible hinderance both to those wanting to become priests (as you pointed out) and to those who already are priests. I suspect that may be why so many priests have been found to have these sexually abusive relationships with children. They are being forced to live a lifestyle that is just too difficult for most and they end up lashing out in VERY wrong ways.
The Bible does state that it's better not to marry if one can withstand the temptations of lust. But for those who can't, they should marry. And that is most people by far I think.

 

[jdragunas]

Originally Posted by hagfish
IMO, you are absolutely correct about this as well. I'm pretty sure that this is another subject that a pope declared as a rule long ago. It is not based in the bible and I think it is an incredible hinderance both to those wanting to become priests (as you pointed out) and to those who already are priests. I suspect that may be why so many priests have been found to have these sexually abusive relationships with children. They are being forced to live a lifestyle that is just too difficult for most and they end up lashing out in VERY wrong ways.
The Bible does state that it's better not to marry if one can withstand the temptations of lust. But for those who can't, they should marry. And that is most people by far I think.

 

[colorteck]

Wow you guys caused me to spend most of my night reading? Now my eyes are sore.

 

[kablamo]

You guys gotta realize that there is a huge difference between judaeism and christian sexual philosophy. For one, Jews don't see satan as an evil anti-god, he is a faithful servant of god, who does all of gods justice dealing. Read Job and you will find that satan doesn't believe that Job is that honorable and decides to prepare a little trial for him. He is the district attourney, and he sits at the LEFT hand of god, which of course is where the prosecutor sits.
Secondly, the old testament praises over and over the lovelyness of women, and has no problem with soloman having some 300 wives and 500 concubines, while St. Paul is quoted as saying "Tis better to marry than to burn" to burn with the fires of lust and ultimately to burn in the fires of hell. --- is tolerated, among married couples, and only for the purposes of procreation, and it was a sin to have --- on the eve of certain church festivals, so on the whole --- is sin, and --- is dirt for christians. But curiously christianity is the most --- obsessed religion in the world, moreso than tantric yoga, or any of the fertility cults of the ancient near east. It is because they make such a huge deal out of it that this is so. A religion that treats --- like this breeds perverts (that's what happens when you repress ---)
If you need proof, just think of the phrase,
"he is living in sin"
I believe you know very well that he isn't setting up a check forgery business...

 

[1journeyman]

Hmm... Not sure where to begin...
First off, the Bible is getting seriously misquoted in this thread... I hope it is out of ignorance and not maliciousness....
Second, just because we behave in a certain way; that doesn't give us the ability to say "There must be no God because that would mean I am wrong..."
Third, like it or not, the Western "Church" has done more good than any other established organization throughout history. In order to criticize the church accurately you must be a part of it. If you don't like the "hypocrites" in the church, then get up off your lazy butt and improve it. Otherwise those "hypocrites" are doing more than you...
Fourth; Christ founded the church on the Apostles. The early church traces it's lineage through the Catholic church. It's during the reformation that church lineage gets muddy.
Next; Creationism vs. Evolution is a mute point. What more accurately needs to be argued is Intelligent Design Vs. Evolution. Creationism is a subset of Intelligent Design; Furthermore, despite what has been posted on this thread; Christian Creationists run the spectrum on how old they think the earth is. Some believe in a literal 6 day Creation, others do not. I personally do not believe in a literal 6 day Creation as time seems to have been created on day 4. Still, we can discuss that elsewhere.
Next; IF you believe in the Bible, then suffering on earth is sufficiently explained. I always scratch my head when someone is ready and willing to condemm the Biblical version of God, but that same person is unwilling to accept the Biblical explanation of why said God does things...
Next; just a point to ponder... if God created the Earth why couldn't he also create "old" rocks, fossils, oil reserves, etc..? I don't personally believe this theory, but I've seen it argued. The fact is, once you accept the idea of a Creator, it opens the window to a limitless amount of possibilities.
Next; the previously discussed monkey evolving issue wasn't sufficiently explored. "Survival of the Fittest" demands that the more primitive primates should have died out. We should not have Great Apes, chimps, monkeys, lemurs and humans.
Finally, (and I'm sure there will be more as I think about it), evolution is an unproven theory. As such, Scientists should be busy poking holes in it. Instead, however, many have buried their heads in the sand and refused to examine possible alternatives..
I loved what Ophiura posted earlier regarding learning about God through study. I believe the Bible is the Truth, and I believe science should be about searching for the truth. Unfortunately, on both sides of the issue, people with unclean motives and personal agendas have tried to bury the truth. This is further propagated by miquoting the Bible, turning a blind eye to science, emotional diatribes, etc.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
You guys gotta realize that there is a huge difference between judaeism and christian sexual philosophy. For one, Jews don't see satan as an evil anti-god, he is a faithful servant of god, who does all of gods justice dealing. Read Job and you will find that satan doesn't believe that Job is that honorable and decides to prepare a little trial for him. He is the district attourney, and he sits at the LEFT hand of god, which of course is where the prosecutor sits.
Secondly, the old testament praises over and over the lovelyness of women, and has no problem with soloman having some 300 wives and 500 concubines, while St. Paul is quoted as saying "Tis better to marry than to burn" to burn with the fires of lust and ultimately to burn in the fires of hell. --- is tolerated, among married couples, and only for the purposes of procreation, and it was a sin to have --- on the eve of certain church festivals, so on the whole --- is sin, and --- is dirt for christians. But curiously christianity is the most --- obsessed religion in the world, moreso than tantric yoga, or any of the fertility cults of the ancient near east. It is because they make such a huge deal out of it that this is so. A religion that treats --- like this breeds perverts (that's what happens when you repress ---)
If you need proof, just think of the phrase,
"he is living in sin"
I believe you know very well that he isn't setting up a check forgery business...
This entire quote is inaccurate.
1. No where in the OT or NT is Satan considered a faithful servant... Now I don't know what each individual jewish scect believes, but from a purely OT perspective this is false.
2. Satan attacked Job after God commented on Job being "Blamesless and upright".
3. No idea where the idea that Satan is sitting on the left hand of God comes from.
4. The Bible absoultely DOES have a problem with Solomon and his wives. Read carefully how Solomon comes to fall away from God. As I posted previously, just because the Bible records it, that does not imply approval.
5. You misquote Paul... Reread the passage you are referring too. Lust is sinful, not --- within marriage.
6. "--- is dirt among Christians".... An absolute lie. ---, in the context of marriage, is the purest gift that God gives His followers. The Bible makes that clear.