coral reefs take millions of years to grow

[kablamo]

Originally Posted by caomt
look how complex this world is...from the tiniest microscopic things to the biggest star..your telling me it all poped out of no where?
Ahh the teleological argument, keep in mind caomt, complexity and redundance is not the goal of a good design.
If you design something you want it to be a simple and efficient as possible. Existance is chock full of redundancies and is infinitely complex. An omniscient god would not have created such a universe as this one.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
Ahh the teleological argument, keep in mind caomt, complexity and redundance is not the goal of a good design.
If you design something you want it to be a simple and efficient as possible. Existance is chock full of redundancies and is infinitely complex. An omniscient god would not have created such a universe as this one.
Actually, you have no idea how an Omniscient God would create things... so that's a bogus argument. Why would God do things the "simple" way? Let's face it.. we are no where near understanding the complexities of life yet, so for us to discuss the fallacies of it's design is silly.
Now, evolution, on the other hand, by definition WOULD do things the simple way...

 

[kablamo]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Because Priests are to only love God. The catholic church believes a relationship of any kind by their Priests interferes and clouds their relationship with God.
The first 1500 or so years of the church WAS the catholic church.
And don't the rules that are held for the priests also apply to the common man in the eyes of god? Why do they get special treatment? God created man for companionship, did he not? We all have the opportunity to be equal friends with god is this correct? So why the double standard?
The rest of this is to all of the christians on this board.
Also, here's another insanity from the bible, why didn't god get our foreskins correct when he created us? That sounds highly imperfect of him doesn't it? The hood around the clitoris develops just as much smegma as an uncut foreskin does, and the women didn't have to get theirs cut.
Oh yeah, and having his chosen people cut off the tips of their wee-wees to mark them as his own sounds a little weird don't you agree?
Oh, sorry you shook hands with a woman who was on her period, oops, you are unclean for a week! Insane?
I'm not going to respond to each of journeymans points because they are all just running away from what I'm saying, but I will ask you to do this one thing.
Go and search the bible for the truth about what you believe and don't just accept church dogma and teachings at face value.
Read the genesis story again and look at where satan tempted them.... oh wait, the bible doesn't mention satan at all, it merely says "a serpent". Hmm intresting, why was I told my entire life that it was the devil? DOGMA.
Now read the story over again with a fresh mind.
God is our heavenly father right?
Adam and Eve were his new children, right?
Eden was a playpen, pure and simple, they were fed, cared for and looked after, almost being babysat with all of their needs fulfilled.
We all know that you cannot grow without challenges, and you will not grow up if you are being babied.
Now god the father said to them "DONT eat of the tree" knowing full well that the fastest way to get a kid to do something is to tell them NOT to. If he had intended to keep them in the garden for eternity there would have been NO tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He also knew that once we had grown enough to start to question things on our own, enough to dare to disobey god, we would be ready for our real adult life in which we had to pave our own way.
When the baby crawls out of the playpen after the father says no, the father is indeed angry, but is also immensely proud that his children have grown enough to do such things.
I don't think for a moment that the "punishments" they got for disobeying god were curses, but more like a father sitting his children down and telling them how the real world is about to be.
You can learn a lot from the bible when you read it with your own mind, you know, this is why the catholic churches didn't allow you to read the bible, and made the preists interpret the scripture for you. They are too afraid of you using your own mind and discovering what the texts really mean.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
I'm not going to respond to each of journeymans points because they are all just running away from what I'm saying, but I will ask you to do this one thing.....
That's just a lie.. you're the one who has changed your arguments, not me. I've been consistent.
I find it interesting that you are willing to believe some parts of the Bible without believing others. Why is that? Why are you willing to take parts of the Bible and argue against it, without reading the Bible as a whole book? The foreskin issue is addressed... the old laws are explained, the Garden is explained, etc, etc,... yet all you seem to want to do is take bits and pieces out of context to try to discredit it. I actually have done what you challenged me to do... I went through college and got a degree in Biology. I stepped away from the church and put creation under a microscope... I came back because my relationship with Christ was real.
So, are you ready for a challenge? how about you quit blindly believing the dogma you're reciting and pick up the Bible and read it? Study it, study the criticisms of it, study it from a historical perspective, study it from an open minded approach... just be careful. It might change your life :joy:
BTW, the serpent of Genesis is Satan. Ref: Rev 12:9. Which, you would know of course, if you didn't try to take things out of context...

 

[appaloosa1]

I don't know who said that people used to live 600-700 years. Anyways If you did the math, that would turn out to be only about 15 generations or so. Assuming the earth is 5000 years old that is clearly not enough time to "evolve" to living only 80-90 years. I'm sorry if someone has already said that, but that post really irritated me. I have always been interested in evolution and have wanted to be an archealogist since I was in elementary school. While I believe in some form of higher being, I am not set on a religion. My beliefs contradict most traditional beliefs and most resemble those of the Native Americans.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Appaloosa1
I don't know who said that people used to live 600-700 years. Anyways If you did the math, that would turn out to be only about 15 generations or so. Assuming the earth is 5000 years old that is clearly not enough time to "evolve" to living only 80-90 years. I'm sorry if someone has already said that, but that post really irritated me. I have always been interested in evolution and have wanted to be an archealogist since I was in elementary school. While I believe in some form of higher being, I am not set on a religion. My beliefs contradict most traditional beliefs and most resemble those of the Native Americans.
Well, personally I believe the earth is older than 5,000 years. I personally believe the Creation account in Genesis is not meant to be a literal 6 days... (see a previous post I had)
Having said that; It can work, however, if you add in the flood to the mix.. Again, if you believe the Bible, after the flood God reduced the number of years man is allowed to live.

 

[dogstar]

Any thing would be simple for God...
People are going to believe or not believe whatever they believe or not believe for whatever reasons they want. Fine with me.
I will soon be dead in my flesh and I will ask God myself. Might not have to because he said all things will be revealed anyway.
God did not really explain with much detail how he created things and if science wants to try to figure it out then fine. Let them TRY. And if people want to believe what they tell them, then fine.
This is what one should expect, If one believes in God, Is this the works of Satan, to mislead ?
Speaking of Satan,
God said that he created ALL things and that he KNOWS all things. He knows every thing to the end. He knows what people will choose and the consequinces of their and his actions right thru to the end.
All part of his design.....And he pushed the start button.
He created Satan in the beginning along with the rest of the Sons of God, the Angles, in an order or rank if you want to call it that. Its clear the Satan or Lucifer or whatever you want to call him for he has many names WAS Gods favorite Cherub, he was call the first choice, the Morning Star, (Is.14:12 Ez.28:13). Had great power ( but only what power God gave him ) in the Council of the Gods, ( Ps:82 )....until he rebelled and was cast out with his angles under his rule.
Left hand, right hand, Revelations says they sat " round about " Gods throne, in a circle,( Rev.4:4 ) but Satan wanted his seat to be 'above' God's seat.
Did God know this would happen, if you believe that God knows all things then..yes..Is this doing God's will, is this being a servant of God, Satan may not think he is doing the will of God, serving God in his purpose, but I think he is.
This is how I see it. But dont believe it becuase I say it.

 

[jdragunas]

kablamo, no offense meant in the words i'm about to say to you, so please don't take it that way, but you sound like a moron rambling on about things you only slightly know about... You're not proving any point, you're just confirming the fact that you don't know what the bible says. In order to properly debate something, you have to know both sides of the argument, otherwise you're just some babbling idiot making generalizations about a book you haven't even read...

 

[farmboy]

I don't believe KB is a moron. Everyone gets to "ramble" on here. The Bible is a complete work. It is hard to pluck a couple of verses out of it to prove a point. :thinking:
There is no empirical evidence of creation (or evolution for that matter). If there was, we would not be discussing it.
I believe the glass is half full-others think it is half empty.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
The first 1500 or so years of the church WAS the catholic church.
And don't the rules that are held for the priests also apply to the common man in the eyes of god? Why do they get special treatment? God created man for companionship, did he not? We all have the opportunity to be equal friends with god is this correct? So why the double standard?.
Actually, you are wrong. The first 1500 years were the jewish church taught by Moses after their oppression by the egyptians. If you actually READ the bible you would know this. The catholic religion came about many years after the crucifiction of Christ.
What I am about to say may offend some catholics, I apologize. But this is how I feel based off study and knowledge gained through the years. The Catholic church ultimately became a power in government and soon became corrupt handing down doctrines and laws not found in the bible or interpreted out of the bible incorrectly to the advantage of the priests, cardinals, and pope. To help further entrench their power over their followers.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
The rest of this is to all of the christians on this board.
Also, here's another insanity from the bible, why didn't god get our foreskins correct when he created us? That sounds highly imperfect of him doesn't it? The hood around the clitoris develops just as much smegma as an uncut foreskin does, and the women didn't have to get theirs cut.
Oh yeah, and having his chosen people cut off the tips of their wee-wees to mark them as his own sounds a little weird don't you agree?.
This was practice of the jewish community to help mark their own people and followers. Mainly when they were under rule by the egyptians. It was a way to show their loyalty to each other without fear of Egyptians or those that would make them slaves seeing their loyalties in the open. It was "sign" of their devotion to God and their opressors. It was later abandoned and deemed unnecessary in the New testament by Christ and the Apostle Paul. The Jews still do this today as they do not see Christ as the Messiah and therefore discount his teachings and those of his followers in the New Testament. Once again, If you actually READ the Bible you would know and understand this.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Oh, sorry you shook hands with a woman who was on her period, oops, you are unclean for a week! Insane?.
See this is were people fall short. When reading the bible...actually ponder it. Use some common sense when doing this. Here is the entire Leviticus versus regarding this. Then I will explain it USING common sense. Something some fall short of.
"If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything that she lies on during her impurity shall be unclean; also everything that she sits on shall be unclean. Whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. And whoever touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. If anything is on her bed or on anything on which she sits, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. And if any man lies with her at all, so that her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean. (Leviticus 15:19-24)"
Now here is the common sense explanation. Back then, do you really think women had Tampons? Now, while is woman is menstruating and not wearing a tampon, what happens to everything she sits on or lays on. It becomes dirty. Now if someone lays or sits down on the bed or chair after she has sat down on it what happens to them? They get dirty. Back then the only people to "touch" a woman were their husbands. So if her husband "touches" her with his hand while menstrating, what happens? He becomes "dirty". Most people bathed or washed in the evening as now. Now the verses regarding a man laying down with a woman is clearly placed in a sexual conotation. Back then the availablilty of cleaning products and cleanliness was not available as we have it today. So I can see how one could be dirty for seven days after "laying" with a woman on her period. Please use common sense when reading the bible. It helps out a lot. Not everything is meant as written, as the wording then was different as now. You DO have to do some translation on your own as you would when studying any old text.

 

[darth tang]

Part two:
Originally Posted by Kablamo
I'm not going to respond to each of journeymans points because they are all just running away from what I'm saying, but I will ask you to do this one thing..
Typical avoidance when presented with a valid arguement and have no rebutal to back up your point oif view. I expect as much from critics of the bible when they try to use scripture to validate their views against the bible.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Go and search the bible for the truth about what you believe and don't just accept church dogma and teachings at face value..
Apparently it is you that subscribes to church Dogma, as you have taken the bible in literal context and basically just repeated what the Church preaches itself. With no apparent interpretation on your own part.
I do NOT belong to any church. I have NOT been to a church in over 15 years. I went when I was younger, but not the typical Priest involved church. Our church was a gathering of people that discussed the scriptures and our interpretations of them as the Bible was meant (In my humble opinion). Not the church where a man sits on the pulpit and tells you what the scriptures mean and you take his word for it.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Read the genesis story again and look at where satan tempted them.... oh wait, the bible doesn't mention satan at all, it merely says "a serpent". Hmm intresting, why was I told my entire life that it was the devil? DOGMA..
While Genesis may not say the serpent was Satan. Satan is referred to as a serpent many times in the bible. Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 both describe Satan as a serpent. “And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,” (Revelation 20:2). “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him” (Revelation 12:9).
So once again using common sense one can deduce the Serpent was Satan or a servant of, acting through Satan.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Now god the father said to them "DONT eat of the tree" knowing full well that the fastest way to get a kid to do something is to tell them NOT to. If he had intended to keep them in the garden for eternity there would have been NO tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
That has to be the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. You must not have kids. I can tell me children not to do something and they listen. I implore you to go tell a child of the age 5 not to kill someone. I bet they don't go running off with a gun and murder someone.
The tree of knowledge was there, just like in your own home there are things your own children should not touch or play with. The tree of knowledge is just a regular tree like any other. It imparted no powers and was an average tree. Just like say a Stereo in your home. You inform your child not to play with the stereo. Your child does, The child then feels your "anger" or "wrath" at being disobeyed. This is the first time your child has disobeyed you. They now understand right and wrong based off of the repreccusions of their actions by your reactions. Is the stereo now a stereo of knowledge? Did it impart knowledge of right and wrong? Yes, but is it any more special than any other stereo in someone elses home or manufactured? No, It is just a regular stereo that inadvertantly passed on knowledge of right and wrong about disobediance upon your child.
The bible is NOT acomplicated thing. Neither is interpreting it correctly. Kablamo, I suggest YOU READ it again, ignoring everything else you have ever heard or read about it. You might actually surprise yourself. I will NOT defend the church as we know it today, but I will defend the bible.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
kablamo, no offense meant in the words i'm about to say to you, so please don't take it that way, but you sound like a moron rambling on about things you only slightly know about... You're not proving any point, you're just confirming the fact that you don't know what the bible says. In order to properly debate something, you have to know both sides of the argument, otherwise you're just some babbling idiot making generalizations about a book you haven't even read...

No I believe he has read the book JD. I just don't think he had an open mind when he did it. His agenda when reading it was to discredit it.

 

[jdragunas]

darth, you are my hero today!

 

[jdragunas]

it sounds to me like he is just bashing parts he has heard about it... anyone who has actually read it would know what you just explained...

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
it sounds to me like he is just bashing parts he has heard about it... anyone who has actually read it would know what you just explained...

You would be surprised at the number of people that I feel do not truly understand what the bible says, and a few of them have read it 3 and 4 times. To some people it is like a calculas book would be to me. No matter how many times I read it I won't understand calculas unless there is someone there to help with an explanation.......this is where priests and such stemmed from. People WANT to be told....not figure it out on their own.

 

[farmboy]

Some folks like to be shouted at on Sunday morning. . . . :notsure:

 

[darth tang]

It isn't the shouting Farmboy some enjoy, but the explanation given to them. Makes there life easier to go to the church each sunday and be taught than teach themselves.

 

[farmboy]

"Just a closer walk with thee" eh, Darth?

 

[darth tang]

Exactly.

 

[jdragunas]

i agree that some people like it handed to them, but i personally like going to church on sundays to see what the priest has to say about the bible, just like i discuss it with my hubby. It's nice to hear other viepoints. I do not, however, take what the preist says as absolutely right. I make up my own mind about what it means.