Do you believe in evolution?

jerthunter

Active Member
I would like to add one thing concerning the various drawings of what now extinct species might have looked like. Most people do not get all excited when they hear about stuff like the measurement of a cranium from Glabella to Opisthocranion, although there are some. So people make drawing, trying to give ideas of what something MAY have looked like.
 

deltablack22

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
It seems that you are not getting the point I was trying to convey with the statement of mine that you quoted. My point was simply this, any drawing will come atleast partly from imagination, there is no benefit in mentioning that. I would imagine that people are smart enough to realize that it is just a drawing. What does the fact the someone draw a picture prove? That people are interested in imagining what MAY have been?
As for how is a species a matter of opinion. Species is a word, there are several ways to define a species like the Biological species concept, evolutionary species concept, phylogentic species concept.. etc. In the end, species is just a word, defined by humans and it is often a matter of debate between people how a species should be defined.
In reference to your first paragraph here, I am just trying to convey that there in a very large bias toward creating a "missing link". This is important in all actuallity because people believe what they see. Take a T-Rex for example. If I drew a picture of him with feathers all over his head and giant fish scales on his body, any 5 year old boy would be able to tell me "thats not what a T-Rex looks like". But do we really know? Pictures like the one posted above are printed in text books and I know growing up my science teachers tought this crap as fact, and not a debatable topic.
I think my brain may be deprived of oxygen, because I still dont follow your second paragraph. Fish bones arent human bones and if I picked up a fish spine and told you it was a fossilized tail bone from a predecessor of modern man you would probably laugh at me. I dont understand what is up for discussion. Who cares what I call it, it doesnt change what it is... If I am way off base and not getting what you are trying to say - just say so and I'll move on. This is just my final attempt at clarifying.
 

deltablack22

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
No, then I'd call your boss or the cops since your job would be to pick up my trash not place it on my driveway... Although this doesn't seem to have any bearing on the discussion.
WOW, lighten up... Just trying to be light hearted here. No need for tension.
 

deltablack22

Active Member
Originally Posted by rbaldino
Man, I'm sorry I missed 10 pages of this.
I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. I don't see how anyone can be involved in this hobby and not believe in evolution. The evidence is right there in your tank, if you bothered to look and make certain conclusions.
Well you did say it again, and apparently this end all statement isnt a common conclusion drawn by everyone. First I would like to draw your attention to the top of this page and the poll. Secondly I would like to afford you the opportunity to peruse through the last ten pages of posts - there you will find a few instances where people have stated the exact opposite of what you just did.....
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by DeltaBlack22
In reference to your first paragraph here, I am just trying to convey that there in a very large bias toward creating a "missing link". This is important in all actuallity because people believe what they see. Take a T-Rex for example. If I drew a picture of him with feathers all over his head and giant fish scales on his body, any 5 year old boy would be able to tell me "thats not what a T-Rex looks like". But do we really know? Pictures like the one posted above are printed in text books and I know growing up my science teachers tought this crap as fact, and not a debatable topic.
I think my brain may be deprived of oxygen, because I still dont follow your second paragraph. Fish bones arent human bones and if I picked up a fish spine and told you it was a fossilized tail bone from a predecessor of modern man you would probably laugh at me. I dont understand what is up for discussion. Who cares what I call it, it doesnt change what it is... If I am way off base and not getting what you are trying to say - just say so and I'll move on. This is just my final attempt at clarifying.
So what would you propose? Draw nothing just show a pile of bones? Or not even bother finding the bones? People will always want to connect to dots. Sometimes people connect the wrong dots and have to go back and fix them. Science is a work in progress. Personally I would love to find something that would change the way scientists view life, that is why I study this stuff. I personally do not study things just to reinforce a belief I already have, I study things to find something new, something that has been missed. On the other hand there are people out there who already have their belief. The believe the earth was created 6000 years ago in six days and therefore must try to fit everything into that mold. Step back for a moment, try to view it from an outside perspective and see who seemed to be biased to creating anything? I am fine with whatever evidence I find, I do not have to fit any of my observations into a particular mold, do you?
Now onto the debate of a species. Species is a word defined by humans, different humans define it differently and therefore it becomes debatable. There is no one final word on what a species is so it will continue to be up in the air. Some people say a species is any group of organisms that can interbreed. However bacteria do not breed (atleast in the way most people would think) so how do you define a species of bacteria? Also you can breed a lion and tiger together yet they are considered different species. We do not know anything about the breeding habits of extinct species so people find different ways to define what they consider a species. In the end the term can be debated, although it would not be debated in the extreme example you gave there are plenty less extreme cases that would debateable.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by DeltaBlack22
WOW, lighten up... Just trying to be light hearted here. No need for tension.

I am sorry I sounded tense. I did not mind you comment but I knew it would probably end up distracting us, or atleast me. But yes, if someone put trash on my lawn or driveway I might call them alot of things, although I don't know if I'd call them a satanist...
 

deltablack22

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
So what would you propose? Draw nothing just show a pile of bones? Or not even bother finding the bones? People will always want to connect to dots. Sometimes people connect the wrong dots and have to go back and fix them. Science is a work in progress. Personally I would love to find something that would change the way scientists view life, that is why I study this stuff. I personally do not study things just to reinforce a belief I already have, I study things to find something new, something that has been missed. On the other hand there are people out there who already have their belief. The believe the earth was created 6000 years ago in six days and therefore must try to fit everything into that mold. Step back for a moment, try to view it from an outside perspective and see who seemed to be biased to creating anything? I am fine with whatever evidence I find, I do not have to fit any of my observations into a particular mold, do you?
Ok, thanks for clearing up where you were going with the species issue. I see where you are coming from now.
As far as your viewpoints on young earth believers fitting things into their mold... I smell more bias.... And I dont think that it is a coincidence that the word ends in the letters "B" and "S". Do you not see how someone touting the evolution theory also draws conclusions based on his/her beliefs? And yes, you do have to fit your observations into a mold... You continue to do it in support of evolution all over this thread.
You didnt take what I said correctly about the drawing - I dont care if you drew an elephant with a human skull. That picture just makes me laugh anyway because behind it I see the efforts of men trying to make their dreams come true - and from my seat in the bleachers they are wasting their time.
You peg me as some retard that takes in whatever I hear and like and reject the ideas that I dont. Just because I am not swallowing your beliefs does not make me ignorant of the other side of the debate.
 

deltablack22

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I am sorry I sounded tense. I did not mind you comment but I knew it would probably end up distracting us, or atleast me. But yes, if someone put trash on my lawn or driveway I might call them alot of things, although I don't know if I'd call them a satanist...
No harm no foul... I probably sound tense too. Nature of the beast I suppose. And it was designed to distract - this topic gets too bland without a few curve balls.

The point of the satanist issue was obvious and I'm sure 99% of the people understood what I was trying to convey. You profession or title cannot hide who you really are and what you stand for. Your personal beliefs do come into play and affect all aspects of your life.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by DeltaBlack22
Ok, thanks for clearing up where you were going with the species issue. I see where you are coming from now.
As far as your viewpoints on young earth believers fitting things into their mold... I smell more bias.... And I dont think that it is a coincidence that the word ends in the letters "B" and "S". Do you not see how someone touting the evolution theory also draws conclusions based on his/her beliefs? And yes, you do have to fit your observations into a mold... You continue to do it in support of evolution all over this thread.
You didnt take what I said correctly about the drawing - I dont care if you drew an elephant with a human skull. That picture just makes me laugh anyway because behind it I see the efforts of men trying to make their dreams come true - and from my seat in the bleachers they are wasting their time.
You peg me as some retard that takes in whatever I hear and like and reject the ideas that I dont. Just because I am not swallowing your beliefs does not make ignorant of the other side of the debate.
Sure, everyone has to work with what they know or what they think they know. So of course if I were to find a fossil I would try to see how it fits in the current mold, but if it didn't I'd try to find out why and hopefully come up with a new idea.
Concerning the picture, I can see your point that for young children seeing this it could be confusing. I honestly do not like the way our schools are teaching evolution in school. Too many people come out of the classes having outdated or misrepresented ideas of what evolution is.
I do not mean to peg you as anyone, I do not fully know what you believe and therefore I do my best not to assume. I do my best, granted that isn't much, to be careful with my words so I do not place words in other people mouths.
 

deltablack22

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Sure, everyone has to work with what they know or what they think they know. So of course if I were to find a fossil I would try to see how it fits in the current mold, but if it didn't I'd try to find out why and hopefully come up with a new idea.
Concerning the picture, I can see your point that for young children seeing this it could be confusing. I honestly do not like the way our schools are teaching evolution in school. Too many people come out of the classes having outdated or misrepresented ideas of what evolution is.
I do not mean to peg you as anyone, I do not fully know what you believe and therefore I do my best not to assume. I do my best, granted that isn't much, to be careful with my words so I do not place words in other people mouths.
I'll toast my next Bud to this post. I agree 100% and admire your thought process.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by DeltaBlack22
No harm no foul... I probably sound tense too. Nature of the beast I suppose. And it was designed to distract - this topic gets too bland without a few curve balls.

The point of the satanist issue was obvious and I'm sure 99% of the people understood what I was trying to convey. You profession or title cannot hide who you really are and what you stand for. Your personal beliefs do come into play and affect all aspects of your life.
I would not say you sounded tense, but it seem obvious that you, much like me, are bored enough to be following this thread and so I can understand the need for humor.
I do understand your point, however I feel that some people view 'evolutionist' as a bad word and some people would rather be known for what they do, not what their findings seem to imply.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
So this is probably a cheap shot on my side, however you did kind of give me crap about not being familar with Kent Hovind's background, and I am not sure if you noticed in amongst all the posts that I discovered that he is currently serving 10 years in jail for fraud. If not, you might want to read all about him on Wikipedia. (I know I usually hate Wikipedia but I suppose it can be ok for a quick reference).
I do feel kind of like I am taking a cheap shot but I imagine you are a good sport and hopefully you won't mind.
 

deltablack22

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
So this is probably a cheap shot on my side, however you did kind of give me crap about not being familar with Kent Hovind's background, and I am not sure if you noticed in amongst all the posts that I discovered that he is currently serving 10 years in jail for fraud. If not, you might want to read all about him on Wikipedia. (I know I usually hate Wikipedia but I suppose it can be ok for a quick reference).
I do feel kind of like I am taking a cheap shot but I imagine you are a good sport and hopefully you won't mind.
My goal of telling you about Kent Hovinds background was simply to inform you what I knew of him, which was limited as well. I probably did come across as a smart-ass but thats just how it comes out from time to time.
I did actually notice the post and immediatly went to google to read it for myself. I thought it was pretty ironic how he was an evangelist (sp?) and got busted for tax evasion. I didnt respond because I called my dad who also has seen him speak on a few occasions. Turns out everyone knew but me - go figure. Thats how it always happens. My old man told me that he remembers hearing him say "I dont pay taxes" on a few instances and he always wondered how he wasnt in jail - guess his mojo ran out huh?
Its actually somewhat sad that he's got a 10 year sentence, I've seen child molesters get WAY less. Dont get me wrong, he should do his time like anyone else and pay what is owed (which I do believe he has paid his taxes). My father also said something about how Hovind truly believed that he shouldnt have to pay taxes and only paid his employees in cash so that they wouldnt either.
Cheap shot? Naaaaw, I'm a good sport and still support many of his views. That doesnt take away from the fact that he's an idiot and didnt pay his taxes. Thanks for keeping me informed!
 

jerthunter

Active Member
I seriously have no life. I sit here and wait for someone to post so I can reply...
The reason I consider it a cheap shot on my account is that I shouldn't use one person's actions as a method of trying to discredit a group of people's point of view like perhaps when people bring up the piltdown man.
I'm not sure if I feel like 10 years is too much. I remember hearing him when I was younger and I know he received a rather huge chunk of cash from my church. I guess it just seems like he should have known better but I guess there are bad apples in every walk of life.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by rbaldino
Man, I'm sorry I missed 10 pages of this.
I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. I don't see how anyone can be involved in this hobby and not believe in evolution. The evidence is right there in your tank, if you bothered to look and make certain conclusions.
I would argue exactly the opposite.
Our tanks are closed systems (like the Earth). Without an "outisde force" (the aquarist) our tanks "tend towards disorder" (Law of Entropy).
Evolution teaches that if you set up a tank of saltwater and left it alone for 10 billion years you would have a reef tank when you returned to it.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I would argue exactly the opposite.
Our tanks are closed systems (like the Earth). Without an "outisde force" (the aquarist) our tanks "tend towards disorder" (Law of Entropy).
Evolution teaches that if you set up a tank of saltwater and left it alone for 10 billion years you would have a reef tank when you returned to it.
I have to disagree with your last statement. The evolution I study only offers a method of how things occur and does not claim that any closed system will result in life.
 

rbaldino

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I would argue exactly the opposite.
Our tanks are closed systems (like the Earth). Without an "outisde force" (the aquarist) our tanks "tend towards disorder" (Law of Entropy).
Evolution teaches that if you set up a tank of saltwater and left it alone for 10 billion years you would have a reef tank when you returned to it.
You missed the point. Everything in your tank is the product of evolution. All the similarly sized and shaped damsel fish evolved from a common ancestor, same for clowns. Look at the variations of torch/frogspawn/hammer corals, which also probably evolved from a common ancestor. This hobby is full of variety because of evolution.
 

reefreak29

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I would argue exactly the opposite.
Our tanks are closed systems (like the Earth). Without an "outisde force" (the aquarist) our tanks "tend towards disorder" (Law of Entropy).
Evolution teaches that if you set up a tank of saltwater and left it alone for 10 billion years you would have a reef tank when you returned to it.

you wouldnt have a reef tank in 1 billion years . you would have apes with gills
 
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